Sluggish cold start --- 1.2 TSI CBZA

[xman]

20 minutes ago, Koreenium said:

One interesting thing I recently noticed when I was replacing ignition coil and ignition leads was that the two further away connections on the ignition coil had this greenish, white powdery type of corrosion but the two closer to the engine had none.

 

Probably no.3 lead had gone open circuit (common) and those connections (2+3) were getting far higher voltages than normal leading to those deposits. Would have eventualy broken down and killed the coil.

Edited 19 October, 2020 by xman

[xman]

For information: The Bosch plugs are different to the OE NGK plugs in that the Bosch have a resistance of 6k ohms and gap of 0.8mm whereas the NGK are 1k ohm and set to 0.7mm gap.

 

Don't think it should make much difference though. The Bosch are supposedly OE on Seat Ibiza versions of this engine.

[Koreenium]

2 hours ago, xman said:

Just a simple point, its important never to overfill the engine oil, check when hot, the level on the dipstick should lie within the hatched zone on the dipstick. I tend to stay a bit under, say 75% as I notice most of our engines are not installed level but tend to drop at the gearbox end.

I'll definitely keep that in mind. When I changed the oil I filled it all the way up to the top of the hatched area on the dipstick.

 

2 hours ago, xman said:

Overfilling oil can lead to churn and excessive oil mist and pressure that could overwhelm the oil seperator and finds its way though the pcv and into the intake, ultimately into the cat/exhaust.

I guess next time I'll do the 75% fill instead. When I got the car it already had a lot of oil in the intake though.

 

2 hours ago, xman said:

Have you checked the battery voltage during a cold start, just in case its low?

Before starting the car, voltage was 12.4-12.6. When the car is running then voltage is around 13.8-13.9.

 

I have noticed that when starting the car, headlights change brightness. Flicker a bit.

 

2 hours ago, xman said:

Probably no.3 lead had gone open circuit (common) and those connections (2+3) were getting far higher voltages than normal leading to those deposits. Would have eventualy broken down and killed the coil.

Good to know!

 

2 hours ago, xman said:

For information: The Bosch plugs are different to the OE NGK plugs in that the Bosch have a resistance of 6k ohms and gap of 0.8mm whereas the NGK are 1k ohm and set to 0.7mm gap.

 

Don't think it should make much difference though. The Bosch are supposedly OE on Seat Ibiza versions of this engine.

If I have money to waste then I might get the NGK plugs and see if that does anything.

[xman]

14 minutes ago, Koreenium said:

If I have money to waste then I might get the NGK plugs and see if that does anything.

 

I've not seen any problems running the Bosch plugs instead of the original NGK on a 2011 CBZC 105ps 1.2tsi, which is basically the same engine as yours.

[bigjohn]

If it's running ok now at 242 000km I'd leave it alone. That's a pretty good innings.

 

 

[camelspyyder]

10 hours ago, bigjohn said:

If it's running ok now at 242 000km I'd leave it alone. That's a pretty good innings.

 

 

Yeah, mine died at 40000km🙄

[Koreenium]

I did some more testing. There is nothing blocking PCV system outside of the engine. All pipes are clean. And if I disconnect one of the PCV hoses then engine really starts misbehaving as it should with massive vacuum leak.

 

I took the oil filler cap off and tested blow by with a tissue paper and it just gets blown away in a second. Blow by is really strong. One affect it has on engines performance is that with the oil filler cap on there is a lot of low frequency rumble and if I take the cap off it sounds a lot quieter and smoother. I'm wondering if I could somehow reduce the pressure inside the crankcase from blow by? Or should I leave it as is?

 

 

Oh and how can I tell if there is chain rattle that is abnormal? I can clearly hear the tappets and I can hear the chain if I listen very closely. There is no obvious chain rattle when cold starting as far as I can hear. I did notice that in VCDS timing chain stretch has increased from 3.4 degrees to 3.6 degrees in like a week but was sitting at 3.4 degrees a while.

Edited 22 October, 2020 by Koreenium

[Koreenium]

Well... sluggish cold start is sort of back. So I decided to change engine oil but instead of previous 0W-40 Shell oil I got 5W-40 Castrol because I was not 100% certain it was a genuine Shell Helix Ultra oil and I also added Luqui Moly CeraTec just because why not. And this time I did not fill it all the way to the top of the hatched area. I left it around 75% mark.

 

Then I removed the camshaft sensor just to take a peak inside the engine from a different spot but instead I noticed there was this silver, grey gunk build up around the tip of the sensor. I couldn't really tell if it was made out of metal particals or not. Should have taken a picture. Anyways I cleaned it off and put it back in. I went on a drive and noticed that there is a knock coming from the engine. Because it was late and I had to go to work next day I left it as is because I thought the knocking like sound is coming from the engine cover from underneath which I probably did not tighten properly after oil change because some of the bolts were really rusty and difficult to get in. Now a week later I decided to look more closely as I had noticed that this knocking can be mostly heard when the engine is cold and it starts knocking more as rpm goes up. Very evident when letting engine idle at 650 rpm and hearing a slow knock. When increasing rpm, knocking becomes more rapid but doesn't seem to get louder. I decided to take the spark plugs out once again.

Here are what the spark plugs look like: 
1,2,3,4

 

I also measured the gap with a proper tool and noticed that first spark plug has gap of 0.7mm but rest have 0.8mm. Also on the first spark plug you can see that the "iridium" tip is mushroomed out. Had not noticed that before. Besides this I also noticed that first spark plug has loose rattling terminal end. No cracks in the insulator. So I just put the old worn park plugs back in instead of these Bosch ones.

 

For just in case I checked oil level and there is something else in there besides oil as it was over max level and there was slight yellowish milkiness. Coolant level looks fine. Milkiness could be from Liqui Moly CeraTec which also happens to be milky? But then again oil level is way higher than it was after filling it up and it looks bit watery. Anyway I think I have to drain the oil.

 

Also did some logging with VCDS and knock sensor shows higher than usual amounts of vibrations coming from cylinder 3 when idling cold at first.

 

 

I guess engine rebuild is ahead. 

[xman]

1 hour ago, Koreenium said:

I also added Luqui Moly CeraTec just because why not

 

What on earth possesed to add this junk to your oil? No additives should be used in motor oil. You are asking for self inflicted trouble.

 

Confused, what engine cover with rusty bolts? There is no engine cover on a 1.2tsi that I know of. Do you mean camchain cover? Surely not the cam carrier/cover?

 

There is something wrong with No.1 cylinder with 2 spark plugs one suffering loosening and then another new plug damaged in a short period. (Gap should be 0.8mm on the Bosch plugs, that No.1 looks as if the ground electrode is bent, and the centre electrode has been somehow hit (iridium alloy is very hard) and thats whats probably behind the loose rattling terminal end, its broken internally, you might conformnthat with a continuity test (should be 6k ohms)

 

Previous use of antiseize on the sparkplugs was very strange and a bitnsuspicious.

 

I guess something is broken or found it's way into cylinder 1 and is loose (maybe the knocking). Borescope and pressure testing is the way to go.

 

Loudish tapping noise btw is just the high pressure fuel pump (normal).

 

Knock sensor signal is a red herring, it just determines ignition advance limit and you will always get one cylinder dominating the knock limit. Ignore that.

 

 

[xman]

1 hour ago, Koreenium said:

I also added Luqui Moly CeraTec just because why not

 

Why you shouldn't use additives

 

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/technical-stuff/196980-review-liqui-moly-cera-tec-friction-modifier-my-skoda-laura.html#post4372920

[Koreenium]

2 hours ago, xman said:

What on earth possesed to add this junk to your oil? No additives should be used in motor oil. You are asking for self inflicted trouble.

 

2 hours ago, xman said:

Why you shouldn't use additives

 

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/technical-stuff/196980-review-liqui-moly-cera-tec-friction-modifier-my-skoda-laura.html#post4372920

Well, considered it's high milage engine, has a lot of blow by etc I thought it could perhaps help smoothed out the engine. A lot of people have said good things about it as much as I have found online. Especially using on older high milage engines. If these new issues are caused by this then I guess I got what I deserved.

 

I have also heard that some workshops always add oil additives whenever they change oil but that's completely different topic.

 

2 hours ago, xman said:

Confused, what engine cover with rusty bolts? There is no engine cover on a 1.2tsi that I know of. Do you mean camchain cover? Surely not the cam carrier/cover?

What I meant was that protective plastic cover under the engine.

 

2 hours ago, xman said:

There is something wrong with No.1 cylinder with 2 spark plugs one suffering loosening and then another new plug damaged in a short period. (Gap should be 0.8mm on the Bosch plugs, that No.1 looks as if the ground electrode is bent, and the centre electrode has been somehow hit (iridium alloy is very hard) and thats whats probably behind the loose rattling terminal end, its broken internally, you might conformnthat with a continuity test (should be 6k ohms)

Well I'm wondering if that particular spark plug was already damaged when I got it? I never paid that much attention and on a simple glance looked fine. I checked old NGK plugs and none of them had this sort of damage.

 

2 hours ago, xman said:

Previous use of antiseize on the sparkplugs was very strange and a bitnsuspicious.

This time they were all nice and tight. I have noticed that I have to screw the plugs in at a correct angle or they start binding ever so slightly every turn and that's while being careful. Not really surprised if the threads are all screwed up.

 

I can imagine that whoever used anti seize did not know or is one of those people who simply doesn't care. I have seen online that this is a fairly common issue and there are a lot of people who claim that they use anti seize on all spark plugs.

 

2 hours ago, xman said:

Loudish tapping noise btw is just the high pressure fuel pump (normal).

I definitely know this but the knocking I hear is completely new and very distinguishable. I was trying to locate it but all I can tell it clearly coming from the engine and not where high pressure fuel pump is.

 

 

[xman]

Without listening I can't tell for sure but classic engine knocking  (as opposed to tapping) sounds are due to either

 

1. Low oil pressure or blocked/low oil flow somewhere.

 

2. Worn small/big end bearings or piston/cylinder wear/slap.

 

As yours came on suddenly after an oil change/additive, Im inclined to think no.1

 

Sometimes engine flushes/additives have aggressive cleaning that high mileage engines suddenly can detach carbon/sludge and end up blocking an oil pickup/feed/gallery. Not sure there's an easy fix for this.

 

Still think compression pressure test might reveal something.

[Koreenium]

Keeps getting more interesting. After that particular oil change my high pressure fuel pump started leaking. That's why the engine oil became milky. It was full of gasoline.

 

And it does seem that the chain is making some noise. Very obvious when driving around, not when idling. Few days after HPFP got changed, chain rattled for a second or two on startup. Engine was not happy. No weird knocking at the moment. Idles bit rough but seems to run decently when driving.

[Koreenium]

Anyway back to the original topic.

 

Sluggish start is back and apparently the new check valve ( non-return valve - 03F103175A ) has failed. I bought a Hitatchi 139315 and it seemed high quality. I assume the failure might have something to do with high pressure inside the engine block?

[Filipelol]

Ok this is interesting because I have had most of the problems you have had regarding the plugs, oil, chain and tapping noises and also the cold start problem, well I can tell you for me what cures my cold start problem is using 98 Ron fuel, whenever I use 95 Ron more times than not I get the weird cold start almost as it's choking on something and then takes a while to settle the idle with a few knocks in between, using 98 Ron I can't remember having a bad start, what fuel do you use ?

[Koreenium]

I have been using mostly 98 and it is mostly from one fuel station. I might have to go try fuel from elsewhere.

 

Weird thing is that it has gotten better again but I have all kinds of other issues. I guess this is what I get with high milage engine like this.

[Ootohere]

@KoreeniumLikely in your country the 98 ron (Min) Superunleaded in your country has now changed from Summer Formulation to Winter fuel and is still 98 ron min but could be more like 100+ ron.

[Koreenium]

I don't know about octane ratings and how much it changes between summer and winter formulas but let's assume that winter formula has 100+. Why would it matter this much? Originally this engine is rated to run on 95. Several of my friends use same fuel and they have literally no noticeable difference going from summer to winter etc. Though they do have different cars, engines and much lower milage etc.

[Filipelol]

Well I've read somewhere the engine is tested with 98 but given a lower rating so it's easier for must consumers worldwide, but our engines, at least mine, says 95 octane  minimum and not 95 required, also read the reason it starts 'badly' with 95 and not with 98, at least in my case, is because of ignition timing and with 98 the fuel burns with the correct timing on the first few strokes so the engine starts well, with 95 if it misfires in the first few strokes the engine bogs down or reduces timing and the rest of the cold start is screwed because of it

[Ootohere]

@Koreenium Higher octane or winter fuel might have made no difference but you are the one that mentioned fuel and the car behaving differently now and you might use fuel from somewhere else.

It is usefully IMO that you actually have some idea what you are actually buying and using when a car is having issues like starting and running.

 

PS

In the UK Super Unleaded has not been sold at 98 ron for a good few years.

There is 95 Unleaded,  then Super Unleaded, 

but it is 97 ron minimum other than the 99 ron minimum sold by Tesco as Momentum 99.  Esso Synergy Supreme 99 or Shell V-Power Nitro+.

 

VW Group in the UK might well not be aware as they never changed their website.

http://volkswagen.co.uk/need-help/need-help-faqs/fuel

 

 

Edited 10 December, 2020 by e-Roottoot

[Koreenium]

I doubt my problem has anything to do with the fuel. With cold weather like -5C I get a nice crisp cold start. On a dry day with +5C I get fairly bad cold start but it is by far worse when it's humid. I have also noticed that on rainy days performance is usually worse.

I have replaced spark plugs with NGK iridium plugs. New ignition coil and leads. I also used dielectric grease. And new air filter.

 

Other things I did notice already in the past was that headlights sometimes flicker. For example when I start moving. But recently also noticed that I stopped and turned the wheel and as I was doing it my headlights dimmed slightly. I have brand new battery, in fact the old battery was just fine aswell. Alternator gives around 13.7 - 13.9v. Possibly an electrical issue?

I did notice that connection on the starter is rusty. Nut atleast is. But that shouldn't be a problem?

 

I have also noticed that at some time a rodent has lived inside the engine bay. Have not seen any broken wires so far.

Edited 17 December, 2020 by Koreenium

[mikkelvitus]

On 22/10/2020 at 13:45, Koreenium said:

I did some more testing. There is nothing blocking PCV system outside of the engine. All pipes are clean. And if I disconnect one of the PCV hoses then engine really starts misbehaving as it should with massive vacuum leak.

 

I took the oil filler cap off and tested blow by with a tissue paper and it just gets blown away in a second. Blow by is really strong. One affect it has on engines performance is that with the oil filler cap on there is a lot of low frequency rumble and if I take the cap off it sounds a lot quieter and smoother. I'm wondering if I could somehow reduce the pressure inside the crankcase from blow by? Or should I leave it as is?

 

 

Oh and how can I tell if there is chain rattle that is abnormal? I can clearly hear the tappets and I can hear the chain if I listen very closely. There is no obvious chain rattle when cold starting as far as I can hear. I did notice that in VCDS timing chain stretch has increased from 3.4 degrees to 3.6 degrees in like a week but was sitting at 3.4 degrees a while.

Hi,

I also have an engine CBZB 1.2 tsi, and Im nervous about if the chain rattles to much, It only has the strong rattle at sartup for 1-2 seconds, and the it quiets down, but off course Im still able to ar thhe chain rotating.

Mine is from sptember 2010, ad the engine control is a simos 10.10, but i simply cant find the value for chain elongation you are writing about. Eg. your chain was 3.4 degrees out. Is it only in newer versions of engine control this is possibe ?

I have other values, relating to adaptation between crankshaft and camshaft, and therefore they say something (nut i dont know what) about the length of the chain. Anyone can explain whet these degrees means ?

[DunDunFather]

Hi, hope someone can help me.

 

My Rapid (60k miles) developed the "Cylinder 3 misfire" issue last week - rough idling and I think it's gone into limp mode. Gave it to my (trusted) mechanic mate and he changed the plugs, noticed there was a lot of soot on the 3rd one. It hasn't made a difference. Compression on the third cylinder is 70, it should be around 180-200.

 

He's saying the engine needs stripping down to find the root cause or just get a new engine and put it in.

 

I'm pretty shocked as I was expecting it to be a simple fix but I now have a dilemma of what to do - get it stripped down and hope it's fixable, get a new engine, take it to a dealers, cut my losses and get a new car? Any advise appreciated.

Edited 9 January by DunDunFather

[Kostas123]

I think you should go to a specialist instead of your mate, no one could afford cars if fixing issues actually needed complete disassembly...

[DunDunFather]

22 hours ago, DunDunFather said:

Hi, hope someone can help me.

 

My Rapid (60k miles) developed the "Cylinder 3 misfire" issue last week - rough idling and I think it's gone into limp mode. Gave it to my (trusted) mechanic mate and he changed the plugs, noticed there was a lot of soot on the 3rd one. It hasn't made a difference. Compression on the third cylinder is 70, it should be around 180-200.

 

He's saying the engine needs stripping down to find the root cause or just get a new engine and put it in.

 

I'm pretty shocked as I was expecting it to be a simple fix but I now have a dilemma of what to do - get it stripped down and hope it's fixable, get a new engine, take it to a dealers, cut my losses and get a new car? Any advise appreciated.

So went to pick the car up, my mechanic proceeded to do a compression test in front of me and to our surprise there was compression in cylinder 3! He said it definitely wasn't doing that yesterday. What a relief, I wasn't ready to get rid of my Rapid yet! He's going to do some more tests and change the leads and coil pack then take it from there.