Any plumbers in the house?

[Noviczech]

Just to complicate matters, don't the water regs require check valves on outside taps?

[VRS_White_Hatch]

3 hours ago, Noviczech said:

Just to complicate matters, don't the water regs require check valves on outside taps?

 

Yes, but they can be built in now, and they don't cost any more. 

Made4Trade DZR Hose Union Outside Tap with Double Check Valve 1/2" DZR (toolstation.com)  £7.48

[Rustynuts]

Current water regs require the check valve to be remote (inside the property) from the tap, not part of it. However, I guess no one's gonna scream & shout about fitting either type, or even none at all..

 

[cheezemonkhai]

8 hours ago, VRS_White_Hatch said:

 

Yes, but they can be built in now, and they don't cost any more. 

Made4Trade DZR Hose Union Outside Tap with Double Check Valve 1/2" DZR (toolstation.com)  £7.48

But they can freeze up over winter and cause problems if the tap isn’t isolated and drained over cold weather.

 

Not exactly difficult to put one on the internal pipe in the nice warm house and save a potential headache.

 

https://www.toolstation.com/made4trade-double-check-valve/p86881

[olduns]

Only if you have room in the cupboard 😀

[VRS_White_Hatch]

1 hour ago, cheezemonkhai said:

But they can freeze up over winter and cause problems if the tap isn’t isolated and drained over cold weather.

 

Not exactly difficult to put one on the internal pipe in the nice warm house and save a potential headache.

 

https://www.toolstation.com/made4trade-double-check-valve/p86881

Your talking about an isolation valve, the valve required by law is the anti back syphon valve. I would always fit an isolation valve under the sink, sorry I didn't make that clear.

[Rustynuts]

Best of both...

https://www.bes.co.uk/double-check-valve-with-isolation-valve-15mm-15584/

[cheezemonkhai]

57 minutes ago, VRS_White_Hatch said:

Your talking about an isolation valve, the valve required by law is the anti back syphon valve. I would always fit an isolation valve under the sink, sorry I didn't make that clear.

I’d been told by a plumber the back flow should be fitted inside not outside because of the above.

 

As I’m not a trained plumber, just someone who has fixed/replaced as needed I’ll take your word for it 👍

[VRS_White_Hatch]

9 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

I’d been told by a plumber the back flow should be fitted inside not outside because of the above.

 

As I’m not a trained plumber, just someone who has fixed/replaced as needed I’ll take your word for it 👍

The regs say a check valve should be located inside the house or protected from frost by other means. You can just use a tap cover thing, that's fine. 

[VWD]

Looking at the above.

1- no comment on my outside tap ref back flow valve on kitchen upgrade or questions on self supplied mixer kitchen .

2- no mention of back flow valve on bath when shower installed on similar upgrade

3- plenty of information on incoming mains water stop valve.

All done two years ago .

Do water regulations vary from area to area, or are these a recent upgrade.

 

[NJRJ]

On 06/07/2021 at 12:30, VWD said:

Looking at the above.

1- no comment on my outside tap ref back flow valve on kitchen upgrade or questions on self supplied mixer kitchen .

2- no mention of back flow valve on bath when shower installed on similar upgrade

3- plenty of information on incoming mains water stop valve.

All done two years ago .

Do water regulations vary from area to area, or are these a recent upgrade.

 

Back flow valves are a must for hosepipe use outside, the idea being if you put the hose in a bucket of poisonous weedkiller the poisoned water can't backflow into the house and kill you (the old example is of a fire engine pumping water nearby and the water back flowing into the house). Most if not all outside taps have one built in, not really allowed, but I think better than nothing. Shower heads on hoses shouldn't be allowed to reach bath/waste water, that's usually done with a backflow anti syphon collar on the outlet, or on an eleccy shower by running the hose through the soap dish (and trivial to change back to wrong).

Building regs inspectors get very vexed when not done properly, they often go a funny colour and splutter

[VWD]

NJRJ-I can understand the reasons WHY. In my day, education would be a better thing. But as a Telecoms bloke ( who worked on some of the more sophisticated , both analogue and transferred to production of Digital systems) and having transferred to rail signalling ,I can see the need for safeguards. As my old Signal mentor said," we can only try to educate against monkeys".

My reply was to ask about water regulations varying between authorities, as two years ago ( as I posted)  we had our kitchen and bathroom refurbished. Shower was replaced with a new one. I know the need to keep the shower head clear of bath water ( and makers instructions , and can see why I need to keep the hose away from buckets of water. But why. Water comes out of taps at circa 1 Bar.( from my old memory). So if pressure of water out of hose is +1bar, from simple physics I'd need a bigger head than ( 1bar= 15psi =  Atm ) 15 foot to syphon water back in. I had similar in our lounge when we had a gas fire . In summer ,with external cladding , our small lounge gets to hot for comfort. So I installed a fan. Gas regs say that's not on. But what moron would have a gas fire on, with a decent central heating system in the house ,when the lounge is too hot for comfort. As said - regulations don't provide reasoning against monkeys.

Edited 8 July, 2021 by VWD

[Rustynuts]

If you have a hose in a bucket of dirty water, and the water supply is interrupted out in the street for maintenance or a break perhaps, if they turn the water off to work on the supply then there's possibility of back siphoning dirty water into the clean water system.

[J.R.]

Not through turning off the water, they would need to drain down and  from a point lower than the bucket at exactly the time that an outside tap was left open during the water cut off.

 

Most of us when we fill buckets from outside taps they will be at ground level but yes it could have the handle hooked over the tap, I may leave the tap for up to 20 seconds while its running but anymore it it would overflow, if the water supply was cut off during that 20 seconds the first thing I would do is turn the tap off.

 

So yes there is technically a possibility of back siphoning but in reality no more than a theoretical one, more chance of winning the lottery.

 

On reflection, my UK house is at the top of a hill, when the water supply fails mine is the first property to run dry, those at the bottom of the street can consume the head of water leading to my property, so if I had a hosepipe leading into a bucket of poison and the people at the bottom were filling their kitchen sink they could be at risk.

 

Serves them right for stealing my water!

[Rustynuts]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

 

So yes there is technically a possibility of back siphoning but in reality no more than a theoretical one, more chance of winning the lottery.

 

 

Tis the way of regulation. At some point (some years gone by perhaps) someone will have suffered dirty contaminated water in such a situation, so the regulation has been devised to prevent it happening again. It's not so much that it could happen, but that it just might. And rather than leave fitting check valves to the expert plumberas on the job, regulation makes sure every installation complies. Except of course, plumbers know better...

[mac11irl]

how to kill your neighbours....

 

[J.R.]

Here in France we kill our neighbours by having our own wells or rainwater catchment tanks with pumps and changeover valves to draw from them for toilets etc, if samples are regularly analysed then you can use it for domestic consumption.

 

The problem is that there are not any precautions against people pumping it back into the mains system other than having to overcome the normally very high mains pressure here of 3.5 - 7 bars.

 

When the mains water is down for maintenance etc many people take the opportunity to pump their well contents into the public water supply to make their water meter run backwards and reduce their bills, most will not have had their water certified by analysis.

 

Poisoning the well of a neighbour still goes on a lot and I often read of illness, deaths and court cases, it has happened that other neighbours water has been contaminated as well almost certainly due to the above.

 

I will never in my life buy or drink bottled water unless in extremis, nonetheless I recover the full bottles that renters leave in the appartements and save them for if ever the mains water is disconnected especially for when it comes back on again.

[NJRJ]

2 hours ago, VWD said:

NJRJ-I can understand the reasons WHY. In my day, education would be a better thing. But as a Telecoms bloke ( who worked on some of the more sophisticated , both analogue and transferred to production of Digital systems) and having transferred to rail signalling ,I can see the need for safeguards. As my old Signal mentor said," we can only try to educate against monkeys".

My reply was to ask about water regulations varying between authorities, as two years ago ( as I posted)  we had our kitchen and bathroom refurbished. Shower was replaced with a new one. I know the need to keep the shower head clear of bath water ( and makers instructions , and can see why I need to keep the hose away from buckets of water. But why. Water comes out of taps at circa 1 Bar.( from my old memory). So if pressure of water out of hose is +1bar, from simple physics I'd need a bigger head than ( 1bar= 15psi =  Atm ) 15 foot to syphon water back in. I had similar in our lounge when we had a gas fire . In summer ,with external cladding , our small lounge gets to hot for comfort. So I installed a fan. Gas regs say that's not on. But what moron would have a gas fire on, with a decent central heating system in the house ,when the lounge is too hot for comfort. As said - regulations don't provide reasoning against monkeys.

 

I don't think the water regs do vary between authorities (in England at least), compliance and checking will though!! Occasionally the water boards would go door to door tracing washing machines plumbed into surface water instead of soil pipe, usually after a local stream had gone foamy, not heard of that for years though.

 

Gas regs are a dark art, we had our house insulated and I needed to add extra ventilation to keep the high output (up the chimney wastefully) gas fire, but that was natural draught ventilation, so a bit different to forced draught, but it's way too long ago that I studied the gas regs to remember ventilation regs, and will have changed, but back in the day gas fitters were queens bitches (corgi) and are now 'gas safe', the rogue installers never registered on either scheme.

 

[VWD]

I think checks on washing machines plumbed into storms is a thing of the past. SIL has this ( it was a long way to the foul) and I told him about the regs ( I checked years ago) and he's had no problems. Gas - another story. Circa 8 years ago, we had our old Baxi taken out and a new system fitted. That needed a decent supply , and the fitter ran a 22 mm(?) pipe from upstairs rear to upstairs front and down to the external gas meter. Going through the wall needed a larger pipe to provide security for the supply pipe ( I'm sure one of our gas gurus will give details). Fitter's brief was to seal the house end of the pipe. So that any leak would vent outside and not into the cavity. Certainly my logic. Not according to the maintenance man. To him ,both ends have to be sealed. So ,we get a leak and cavity fills up with gas, meaning bigger undetected leak = more bangs for your pound/buck etc or possibly gas poisoning as we have vents from cavity into most rooms. Swimbo lights Ciggy and next moment "woof" she's gone.

 

[Rustynuts]

5 hours ago, VWD said:

Fitter's brief was to seal the house end of the pipe. So that any leak would vent outside and not into the cavity.

 

It used to be sealed both ends but changed to sealed internal only about 25 years ago. Your man must be well out of date.

[VWD]

Rusty - that was my ideas.  personnaly - I could see sense in vented out.

[Evil]

Well chaps, I finally pulled my head out of my ass and sorted it (all your input is greatly appreciated).. 

 

Y connector to split the washing machine outlet 

Flexi hose to connect to the through wall plate pipe doohickey 

Tap (had to use a reducer, the tap was 3/4"bsp and the wall plate was 1/2"bsp)

 

This'll work just fine, no? 

[Rustynuts]

Yeah, that'll be good. Just keep an eye on those Flexi hoses. I've had plenty of issues where they split and let go.

[Evil]

1 minute ago, Rustynuts said:

Yeah, that'll be good. Just keep an eye on those Flexi hoses. I've had plenty of issues where they split and let go.

 

To be honest I doubt it'll get used that much (and I have a spare flexi, just in case  )

[olduns]

Try not to let the flexi pipe turn as you tighten each end to keep the stress off it