I've just read about a test whatcar conducted with the new E10 petrol Vs the original E5 & effect on MPG in various cars.  They found the new fuel to yield typically 10% less.

Super unleaded is to remain E5 & so is surely the one to go for if it's less than 13.5p a litre more as you'll get extra octanes & cleaning additives too.

It'll be interesting to see if the govt cuts duty on the inferior fuel

Where did you read this, please? Link?

2 minutes ago, Wino said:

Where did you read this, please? Link?

"...test Whatcar conducted..."

Can you provide a link Ken?

7 minutes ago, Wino said:

Where did you read this, please? Link?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-e10-fuel-could-reduce-cars-economy-10-cent

 

Autocar. My mistake

Testing done against pure unleaded rather than E5, skim reading.

19 minutes ago, Wino said:

Testing done against pure unleaded rather than E5, skim reading.

Haha.  Oh yea. It's lucky that you're about Wino 😀

44 minutes ago, Duggerchopz said:

It'll be interesting to see if the govt cuts duty

Don't hold your breath...

Hell’ll freeze over first….

Threads on the subject are in the General Automotive chat section. Maybe this can go there as well.   Updated articles in motoring media 7 years after first published are to be taken with a pinch of sodium in the fuel.     Haymarket media group owned by Lord Michael Heseltine  that own What Car and Autocar also own the Business that does the testing.  Lord Heseltine worked for Call me Dave on Trade and Industry and the Motor Industry   he even brokered the deal where VW acquired Bentley when that happened. (1998).   So an insider. A party with interests.   Haymarket Media Group do work for VW like new car launches.  They even knew about the Implausible emission figures before the VW defeat device scandal broke.  They even worked for the UK Government.   Transport or Environment Ministers never listen. 

Edited 25 August, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

16 minutes ago, e-Roottoot said:

They even knew about the Implausible emission figures before the VW defeat device scandal broke

Implausible NOx emissions or CO2?

Different scandals.

Yes. 2015 and Euro 5 was the first scandal breaking and the Implausible C0 2 was euro 6 which was discovered end 2015 into 2016. Well the Independent Testing had already found it.  Implausible covers both instances as testing was cheated but VW group claimed not so.  Euro 6 cars that had false figures were withdrawn / bought back or the emission figures revised.  It all got lost in the Scandal over Defeat Devices. Only Skoda not involved in the Euro 6 incidents. 

Edited 25 August, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

On 24/08/2021 at 10:02, Duggerchopz said:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-e10-fuel-could-reduce-cars-economy-10-cent

 

Autocar. My mistake

So "could" reduce economy 10% becomes "typically" reduces economy 10%

 

Either of those phrases automatically makes me dig further.

 

Like Wino it only usually takes a skim read with an open but suspicious mind to see that its hogwash, have people really lost the ability to think for themselves and to verify what they have been fed? Or is it social media that makes it so easy for those lacking the skill to repeat the duff info?

On 24/08/2021 at 09:52, Duggerchopz said:

I've just read about a test whatcar conducted with the new E10 petrol Vs the original E5 & effect on MPG in various cars.  They found the new fuel to yield typically 10% less.

Super unleaded is to remain E5 & so is surely the one to go for if it's less than 13.5p a litre more as you'll get extra octanes & cleaning additives too.

It'll be interesting to see if the govt cuts duty on the inferior fuel

 

Worse than if they were charging for watering the petrol down.    Sandero uses the Renault engine range ie SCEs and TCEs so would affect much more than the Dacia range if true. 

I’ve been trying to understand the amount of energy in ethanol and pure 95 RON petrol, but my Googling hasn’t yielded a useful result.  VVT (a Finnish university) did a similar study to Whatcar in 2011 and concluded a 0.7% increase in fuel consumption.  They said this correlated well with the 1.1% difference in the calorific values of the 2 fuels. Link :- click

 

I’m sure that in reality it’s more complicated with burn rates, knock etc coming in to play, but I’m still curious regarding the simple calorific values.

 

As an aside, I’m only looking as my Vrs seemed to go better in 98RON, but I’m not so convinced in the Superb (190 petrol).

Edited 25 August, 20214 yr by JBD1974
Poor phraseology as @wino correctly points out 2 posts below!

@JBD1974

Where do you find anyone selling 98 ron in the UK?,  it is 97 Ron Min or 99 ron Min at Tesco, Shell, Esso, nobody has 98 ron on pumps since BP went to 97 & Shell to 99.

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/496871-vrs-245-measured-at-98-or-95-ron

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/496251-bio-effect-on-fuel-economy

 

Edited 25 August, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

Good work @JBD1974. I imagine there's probably a fair amount of variation in the calorific value of the 95RON, bearing in mind that that may not be one of the criteria it needs to meet to be 'certifiable'; dunno.

 

Your wording could just do with a slight tweak to say a "0.7% increase in fuel consumption" or a 0.7% drop in fuel economy. 

 

Sounds very believable compared with the 'scare story' figure in the autocar article.

@e-Roottoot98 octane was just the number in the back of my mind from  staring at the fuel pump. Apparently it was a while ago and at shell. 

 

I can more accurately state Costco 97 octane if the clarification helps.

 

 

@JBD1974

Costco was doing 99 ron before going to 97 ron.  Maybe because it was Greenergy that had been supplying them then that changed.

Sainsbury's Superunleaded 97 Ron min as well.

 

ESSO,

Ethanol or not in the E5 99 Octane?,

location location location dependent, or what might be brought in from Continental Europe or Globally.

 

Edited 25 August, 20214 yr by e-Roottoot

@Wino  We’ll spotted – the perils of rephrasing a sentence after typing it!  Now corrected.

@e-Roottoot I'm glad you said that!  I Googled before replying and was surprised that it was 97 and not 99.

@chimaera would be my 'goto guy' for explanations about energy content of the various fuels and their 'extras'.   I seem to remember him suggesting that the petrochemical guys may just balance the octane boosting aspect of adding more ethanol against 'octane lowering' of the base fuel, to end up with something with the same RON.  No idea how that might impact the calorific/energy content overall, because that is hardly correlated if at all with RON, I think.  Many folk misunderstand this.

 

 

I vividly remember once transcribing some taped interviews with some teachers, about why they left their previous jobs.  One of them had been working for a fuel company and described how it was very tedious and embarrassing to keep repeating the same tests on a 'batch' over and over again hoping to get a 'pass'  through simple experimental error, which would save the company loads of cash compared with having to add more of the pricier ingredients...

 

Edited 25 August, 20214 yr by Wino

EPA must be the one largest organisations with involvement in this.  They have said......

(US gallons quoted of course which is a US gallon is only 3.785 litres compared to a UK gallon at 4.54 litres)

The US has been using E10 since 1979.

A litre of Ethanol has only 2/3rds the calorific value to "normal" petrol so a 5% change in Ethanol content would give a 1.6% drop in calorific value by my maths. 

Sounds about right as long as the ignition system tweaks the spark timing one might think. 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How much does 10 ethanol affect gas mileage?

 

 

Assuming you were running straight gasoline and were then forced to switch to E10 (gasoline cut 10 percent with ethanol), your mileage will drop. The big question is by how much. The Environmental Protection Agency says E10 lowers mileage approximately 3 percent, which would drop your mileage from 19.6 to 19.0 mpg.

 

30 minutes ago, e-Roottoot said:

@JBD1974

Costco was doing 99 ron before going to 97 ron.  Maybe because it was Greenergy that had been supplying them then that changed.

Sainsbury's Superunleaded 97 Ron min as well.

 

ESSO,

Ethanol or not in the E5 99 Octane?,

location location location dependent, or what might be brought in from Continental Europe or Globally.

 

That's something I did not know, thanks!

I may have to give the Esso Supreme+ a try.

It'll certainly be a step up from the bargain basement Sainsbury's 97 E5 that I "treat" my car to in favour of the Sainsbury's 95 E10 stuff.

5 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

a 5% change in Ethanol content would give a 1.6% drop in calorific value

Only if the base petrol remained the same, which it may well not do, for reasons mentioned already. They may be able to make the base 'dinosaur juice' fuel 'worse' at least in RON terms, but as I say, I don't know how/if that would affect energy content of that fraction.