New used Yeti owner, haldex spin on launch?

[putt]

Hi all,

 

I've recently purchased a facelift 2013 2.0 140 dsg 4x4 Yeti. It does a couple of things I wanted to ask about to inquire as to whether they are problems that need investigating:

 

1. When pulling away whilst turning it feels like a wheel spins, almost like a diff lock is off. I had a Subaru with haldex before and never noticed this, so wondered if this was usual.

2. The heating coil dash light stays on indefinitely/until ignition. Every previous car I've owned the light turns off once they are warmed up and then you start the engine.

3. Radiator fan runs after switch off even in cool weather after short journeys.

 

I'd appreciate your advice. TIA

 

[Austin 7]

Hi putt

 

All three things are abnormal. 

 

No 1 Suggests that the haldex is not allowing the rear wheel drive to activate.  It should do this very promptly, i.e. after less than 1 revolution of a slipping front wheel.

No 2 Suggests a problem with the glow plugs and/or their controller.  The light should go off very quickly in normal weather, after 5 or 10 seconds when cold, i.e. below about 5 degrees C

No 3 Suggests that the fans/fan controller are getting an incorrect temperature reading.

 

Just a thought, No 2 could be due to a faulty temperature sensor, i.e. the glow plug system "thinks" it's very cold.  Paradoxically, the fan system seems to "think" its very hot.  These things might be connected, or it could be just coincidence.

 

Do you have any comeback with the seller ?

[KenONeill]

57 minutes ago, putt said:

whether they are problems

1. AIUI a Haldex should only cut in in low traction situations. You tell us if, for example, you habitually do full throttle full lock takeoffs. BTW I'm not familiar with a Subaru that has a Haldex; they're normally FWD or full time 4WD.
2. I'd agree with @Austin 7 above.
3. Again agreed.

So putting 2 and 3 together and making 5  check the outside temperature sensor (mode in trip computer, or value on Climatronic fascia (If you're in the UK, expect 10 to 20 degrees this time of year). (BTW this is why we ask you to fill in location and car details; they are actually relevant to fault diagnoses and legal advice).

[Kenny R]

1. Not normal. Car should have had at least 2 Haldex oil and filter changes by now, any proof this has been done.

2. Agree with above.

3. Fans running on after stopping are usually caused by interrupted dpf regens .

Do you do lots of short journeys?

Edited 14 September, 2021 by Kenny R

[Frenchtone]

No 3 could be a regen in process so this would be sort of normal, Is there a general hot smell around the car?

Edited 14 September, 2021 by Frenchtone

[Yety]

No 1 sounds very familiar. my 2012 Yeti did a little "lurch" on steering lock when starting off from new. I do a lot of gravel road driving, never had a problem with traction. Filters and oil have been changed regularly, and outside observers have not noticed any wheel spin/ no spin.

The Haldex is predictive, and does not need wheel spin to engage. There are lots of signals the Haldex recognises to engage, particularly steering lock, throttle, hand brake etc. Perhaps your Subaru did not have the same inputs to the software? There are many incarnations of Haldex fitted, from Fiat Panda, Ford, Volvo, JLR etc so there is probably a variation in software.

The funny "lurch" is mystifying, not at all adverse to any situation on or off road - but I would like to know what causes it 😖.

Another funny one is cresting a hump in the road on a neutral throttle - you can feel as if the fuel shuts off momentarily - again, no problem.

No 3 sounds like a re-gen, No 2 might need a diagnostic test

[putt]

Hi All, many thanks so far. I'm in Devon, U.K. I purchased the car from a dealer, it came with a warranty so I could look to do something with that.

 

There is no hot smell and I haven't done any big journeys lately, but did 30 mins either way yesterday. 

 

The Haldex has been serviced looking at the records. It's an odd one, it;s either a wheel spin on what sounds like one of the back wheels - I'm guessing inside, but could also be a wheel drag from it not turning? 

 

Where do I see ambient temperature on the dash? I can't find the option in the MFD menu.

 

Many thanks,

 

 

 

 

[Frenchtone]

can you find a local sandy surface to test the haldex operation, starting from stopped, just floor it and quickly stop say in 4 - 5 feet, look at the displaced sand, should be across all wheels! I use a local beach!

Edited 14 September, 2021 by Frenchtone

[Ootohere]

@putt Welcome.

 

Even when the Haldex is correctly working it still matters what tyres are fitted and how you use the accelerator pedal for what ever surface you are on.

Dry Grip or even damp and the system will maybe have you with traction and a forward action.

Gravel, Ice, Wet etc still can have tyres lose traction as the car has no locking diffs or central diff and all wheels can not be having brakes applied to stop a wheel or 2 spinning under acceleration from standing starts or hard acceleration when moving.

[Trevor M]

I think the obvious thing to do is to get the error codes checked by some friendly VCDS (or similar) owner.

Potentially the most serious item you mention its the fans running: if regens can not be completed due to a blocked DPF, I understand this can be an expensive repair. I would suggest making sure this is not a problem before your warranty expires.

Alternatively you could just take it back to the supplying dealer and ask them to rectify the problems under warranty; this might save a lot of 'hassle' in the long run.

Edited 14 September, 2021 by Trevor M
Added text.

[idleness]

Its a big county but where in Devon are you, I am near  Bideford

I have software tools to read the fault codes and the state of the DPF if its of use.

 

Oh and if there are pre existing faults the dealer is liable for the first six months.

[J.R.]

7 hours ago, Yety said:

The funny "lurch" is mystifying, not at all adverse to any situation on or off road - but I would like to know what causes it 😖.

Another funny one is cresting a hump in the road on a neutral throttle - you can feel as if the fuel shuts off momentarily - again, no problem.

 

I am really pleased to know that I am not alone

 

I abused my diff by being a meathead male (any hole will do ) and since refilling the dry carbonised differential have been on tenterhooks waiting for failure, every whine etc makes me paranoid, the lurching I get sometimes when driving out of a supermarket parking spot on lock, it can be forward or backwards, it feels like transmission wind up in a pure 4x4 without centre differential and the same as when I had the diff planet wheels breaking up on a Ford live rear axle, I can be a little less paranoid now but like you would like to know what it is.

 

My theory is that it is transmission wind up and a snatching as the haldex clutch releases under the load rather than from an ECU command, whatever the reason is the controller incorrectly decides to put too much pressure on the clutch pack for the actual situation.

 

Re the cresting of a hill, that has really freaked me out, every time it feels like the engine has died and for a split second there is a non linear throttle response, it has taken you to make me realise that it is when lifting off while cresting a rise.

 

Its the price i pay for being so attuned to my vehicles and noticing the slightest hiccup.

[Yety]

Wow, someone else is nerdy 😉

I also think the "lurch" is the Haldex release if the parameters it is receiving gives the impression that extra traction is needed (predicted wheelspin immediately on start), then realises that it is not required. I've noticed it does seem apparent in mud or snow.

As to the fuel cut-off, I can make it do it at the crest of a little hill leaving home - I think it must be connected to an inclinometer, also used for hill hold starts. Possibly a fuel saving device.

[J.R.]

The momentary feeling of cutting out, its almost like an instantaneous reboot, happens very rarely, I will make a note of the next place it happens & see if I can get it to repeat.

 

I think I have a better description if you are of an age to recall a carburetted vehicle, its like the initial stage of fuel starvation when the float chamber level drops, you accelerate and there is not even a noticeable lag but the throttle goes a tiny bit further down before you get the expected response.

[Rustynuts]

The momentary lapse of power sounds like XDS. Annoying (or rather disturbing) but effective when needed.

[putt]

15 hours ago, idleness said:

Its a big county but where in Devon are you, I am near  Bideford

I have software tools to read the fault codes and the state of the DPF if its of use.

 

Oh and if there are pre existing faults the dealer is liable for the first six months.

 

That is incredibly kind, but as you say it's a big county.. I'm near Totnes, so quite a way aways! 

[J.R.]

10 minutes ago, Rustynuts said:

The momentary lapse of power sounds like XDS. Annoying (or rather disturbing) but effective when needed.

 

Thats a thought!

 

I have never felt its intervention at any other time but with 4WD I guess it wouldn't, not even sure that I have that 3 letter acronym as most of the others are absent.

 

I will have to go airborn and plant the throttle to see what happens, let's hope it doesn't react like the 205 T16!

[KenONeill]

31 minutes ago, J.R. said:

let's hope it doesn't react like the 205 T16!

It may do, since they're both transverse engines.

[J.R.]

I will try it at Vmax in reverse then, that should get the closest to the same dynamics!

[Sad555]

My haldex failed without me realising for some time (front wheels bouncing when booted in the wet) but luckily within warrant period but never told what was the cause.

[idleness]

10 hours ago, Sad555 said:

My haldex failed without me realising for some time (front wheels bouncing when booted in the wet) but luckily within warrant period but never told what was the cause.

Dead pump caused by lack of oil/filter change is the normal cause.

[Toneb]

I lost 4wd . Only had fwd and was going to completely strip the haldex down then wiggled the wires connecting to the rear haldex ecu and yep all good ever since 

[muddyboots]

On 14/09/2021 at 12:01, Yety said:

No 1 sounds very familiar. my 2012 Yeti did a little "lurch" on steering lock when starting off from new. I do a lot of gravel road driving, never had a problem with traction. Filters and oil have been changed regularly, and outside observers have not noticed any wheel spin/ no spin.

The Haldex is predictive, and does not need wheel spin to engage. There are lots of signals the Haldex recognises to engage, particularly steering lock, throttle, hand brake etc. Perhaps your Subaru did not have the same inputs to the software? There are many incarnations of Haldex fitted, from Fiat Panda, Ford, Volvo, JLR etc so there is probably a variation in software.

The funny "lurch" is mystifying, not at all adverse to any situation on or off road - but I would like to know what causes it 😖.

Another funny one is cresting a hump in the road on a neutral throttle - you can feel as if the fuel shuts off momentarily - again, no problem.

No 3 sounds like a re-gen, No 2 might need a diagnostic test

My Yeti used to do the lurch too, always when pulling out of parking spaces at work - low speed, and lots of lock.

 

My theory was this:

 - Haldex is pre-emptive, and automatically pre-engages whenever you pull away from standstill (regardless of traction). I remember reading this in the self-study guide.

 - When you pull away and are turning on a reasonable amount of lock....Haldex is engaged, but you have no centre diff.

 - Due to the tight turn, front diff is turning faster than rear diff (due to front wheels turning a wider circle, and therefore rotating more compared to rear).

 - Therefore wind-up is inevitable. There are rubber couplings in the propshaft, and engine mounts are rubber, so some of this windup will be accommodated by flex in the couplings and mounts.

 - After a short period, the Haldex will decide it's not actually needed, as you're not actually accelerating hard or losing traction - and will therefore disengage

 - When it disengages, any tension that was built up in the rubber couplings/mounts will release - and I reckon this is the lurch or thump you feel in these scenarios.

 

It also used to do the brief cut-out effect; always on the hill down from our village at a certain point - light or no throttle, and a slight "crest" on the downhill if that makes sense. Did it every single time.

 

Going back to the OP's first point though, about wheel spin - whilst pulling away and turning.

Mine used to do this also, even though the Haldex worked fine (regularly tested, especially in snow/ice!!).

Our Superb Mk3 4x4 - essentially the same drivetrain (albeit Haldex Gen 5 vs Yeti's 4 I think) - also does exactly the same.

Not massive amounts of spin, but a little from the front - only while turning though, like when pulling out of a side road in a hurry.

I recently drove a front-wheel drive Octavia hire car, first FWD I've driven for a while, and I forgot just how much I'd got used to all wheel drive and being able to point and shoot and know it'd go !!

My current car - an A6 Allroad doesn't spin at all. I can give that full beans (and that's 320 horses) out of a T-junction with a fair bit of lock, and not even the slightest spin. It just goes, no drama.

I put it down to the different 4wd systems, the Yeti and Superb being Haldex-based systems with no centre diff, vs the Audi's Quattro with Torsen centre diff. Don't know enough to explain why they behave differently in this situation though.

[KenONeill]

41 minutes ago, muddyboots said:

Haldex-based systems with no centre diff, vs the Audi's Quattro with Torsen centre diff. Don't know enough to explain why they behave differently in this situation though.

You're most of the way there actually. Haldex is a reactive system with no centre diff, where Quattro system is a true permanent 4WD with a TORque SENsing (see what they did there?) centre diff, so you can get windup when Haldex is engaged.

[J.R.]

Two very good explanations, 100% correct.

 

Muddyboots, your theory is fact and very well explained, I simply called it transmission wind up which any old school 4x4 owner would have experienced and understood, I was not capable of explaining it in writing as well as you did.

 

Its less of a clattery "snatch" on the Yeti because of the inherent damping of the guibo coupling, without it you would feel and hear the tyres resisting.