Wino, I think that was answered with - 

On 13/11/2021 at 22:27, Meridion said:

Hi  Xman! Thanks for this. I had seen some of your others posts on the oil filter so I did double check that yes! 

 

Im shopping around for the chain job at the moment. Any competitive garages north of London? Or west Yorkshire?

 

On listening to the video again boy was it noisy but Meridion put it was quieter after he changed the oil but that quiet would be relative to how noisy it was before of course.

 

Was there a change to recommended oil weight as well as the change to capacity?

 

Ah, fair enough, I missed that.

It looks to me like the chain mechanicals changed on/between 23/24th October 2011 so yours should comfortably be in the later category with updated chain/sprockets etc.

 

 

Screenshot source: engine Fabia (FAB) [EUROPA 2012 year] (7zap.com)

Edited 24 November, 20214 yr by Wino

Wino, do you know if there was a change to recommended oil weight as well as the change to capacity?

 

No idea, but I doubt it. 

VW group don't really go by oil 'weights' as such, they just have their own categories - 502 00, 504 00 etc. within each of which a (small) range of different conventional viscosity ratings can feature. 

There was a change with some  Mk2 Fabia engines that had a Service code for Fixed Services only and then were changed to suitable for Variable / flexible.  The same engines in Polo, Ibiza and A1 were already showing the Code for Variable servicing 2 years before the MK2,s but the models were out before the MK2.  They showed VW 502 00 for fixed and VW504 00 for fixed or variable with petrols    There was a change of Oil filters with 1.2 TSI,s  and some here got the wrong filters even when the cars were serviced at Main Dealerships.  There was the change of oil capacity from 3.6 liters to 3.9 and again that was overlooked at dealerships and some had 3.6 litres on their invoice / bills. 

 

 

Edited 24 November, 20214 yr by roottoot

Here.    http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/257110-correct-service-interval-and-oil-grade-for-fabia-ii-to-be-pinned

 

Engine codes.

Posted Feb 2012.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/228245-engine-code

 

 

(http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/246296-vrs-oil-temperature)

PITA for some when they changed Variable / flexible to Fixed. 

PITA when car in at the Dealerships that changed Fixed to Variable on cars that were set for Fixed and drivers wanted that.

 

 

 

 

Edited 24 November, 20214 yr by roottoot

I'm no expert in oils but there does seem to be a great deal of confusion about oils.  I'm not going to add to it as I've always found there are several strands of oil beliefs and faiths and generally they are firmly held or too much anxiety or uncertainty to move from or to certain strands.

 

It's also possible to overtighten the oil filter on an EA111 engine damaging the non return and drain back valves which can cause oil pressure issues. As Wino & Xman mentioned it's also easy to leave behind a previous sealing ring as well - which also causes havoc. Either problem could affect the pressurization of the cam chain tensioner and cause potential engine damage.

Edited 25 November, 20214 yr by bigjohn

20 hours ago, bigjohn said:

It's also possible to overtighten the oil filter on an EA111 engine damaging the non return and drain back valves which can cause oil pressure issues. As Wino & Xman mentioned it's also easy to leave behind a previous sealing ring as well - which also causes havoc. Either problem could affect the pressurization of the cam chain tensioner and cause potential engine damage.

Thanks John! I did check for the left behind seal, and I got a cup wrench for the oil filter so I could tighten it with a torque wrench to spec. If I have still messed it up then I deserve the damage haha 😅

Meridion, do you still have a knocking noise, I mean the car not you, or are you just trying to establish oil quantity?

  

7 hours ago, nta16 said:

Meridion, do you still have a knocking noise, I mean the car not you, or are you just trying to establish oil quantity?

  

The knocking (more like ticking noise to be honest ) has subsided. Still there faintly and its coming from the high pressure fuel pump from the sounds of it.

 

But maybe once a week or twice a week I will hear the chain for 1-2 seconds on startup! I'm thinking at 85k on the clock, maybe the chain tensioner could do with replacing as a potential cheap fix! The spring in there may is wearing out. 

 

It's just the potential chain issue that is playing on my mind. I don't know if it's just a poor design feature on startup that lacks tension on the chain or if it really is stretched. 

 

Scotty kilmer mentioned he used some carbon cleaning oil additive on an engine with a noisy chain and the noise went away. Apparently crud can build up on the chain tensioner and it doesn't operate as smoothly/quickly or build hydraulic pressure as quickly as it should. But I can't find the American stuff he recommended here in the UK 🤷‍♂️

 

Oil wise, at least I know now it's 3.6/3.9 and to be honest  this isn't an F1 engine, if the oil in the middle of the Min-Max on the dipstick, it will be fine 😁

On 24/11/2021 at 11:52, Wino said:

Ah, fair enough, I missed that.

It looks to me like the chain mechanicals changed on/between 23/24th October 2011 so yours should comfortably be in the later category with updated chain/sprockets etc.

 

 

Screenshot source: engine Fabia (FAB) [EUROPA 2012 year] (7zap.com)

Thank you for the research Wino I really appreciate it!

 

I wonder if anyone has had any luck just replacing the tensioner initially to see if it helps on startup? Looks a 2 second job and they're about £30. 

4 hours ago, Meridion said:

Scotty kilmer mentioned he used some carbon cleaning oil additive on an engine with a noisy chain and the noise went away. Apparently crud can build up on the chain tensioner and it doesn't operate as smoothly/quickly or build hydraulic pressure as quickly as it should. But I can't find the American stuff he recommended here in the UK

 

Yeah, so please ignore magical snake oil claims, particularly from the US, he'll be getting paid for the exposure.

Meridion, if the tensioner is at fault and if it's a quick cheap job and there's no record of it being done then it might  well be worth a go.

 

Carbon build up might have be less with more timely or frequent oil & filter changes, along with other servicing, as perhaps the car was previously used on lots of short journeys, average of about 8.5k/year doesn't suggest lots of long motorway trips but that's just averaging without annual records so means very little.

 

For oil level on the dipstick are you checking it as per book instruction or just the old cold (you might have said but I've forgot).

 

How dirty is the oil in use now after your recent oil change, perhaps you might consider using an oil flush, you probably remember the different types but only the top style seems to be about in the shops now.

 

sepulchrave has obviously never seen Scotty Kilmer but it must be remembered he's in good ole US of A and they do things different there and have different cars and oil regimes, he never works on modern VW.  Over there it's oil changes every 3k-miles, and the vehicles can do high annual mileage, imagine what they'd make of 10k-miles annual oil or 20k-miles.  I'm not sure which product you mean but you can get the Lucas products over here but I'm sure more local oil blenders would have similar products.  Oil and "gas" is less expensive for our 'allies'. 

 

Millers Engine Flush - 250ml - https://www.millersoils-shop.co.uk/engine-flush

 

Product Technical Data Sheet (PDF as attached below) - https://cdn.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/millersoils/Engine-Flush-1.pdf

 

 

Engine-Flush-1.pdf

Edited 26 November, 20214 yr by nta16

45 minutes ago, nta16 said:

Meridion, if the tensioner is at fault and if it's a quick cheap job and there's no record of it being done then it might  well be worth a go.

 

Carbon build up might have be less with more timely or frequent oil & filter changes, along with other servicing, as perhaps the car was previously used on lots of short journeys, average of about 8.5k/year doesn't suggest lots of long motorway trips but that's just averaging without annual records so means very little.

 

For oil level on the dipstick are you checking it as per book instruction or just the old cold (you might have said but I've forgot).

 

How dirty is the oil in use now after your recent oil change, perhaps you might consider using an oil flush, you probably remember the different types but only the top style seems to be about in the shops now.

 

sepulchrave has obviously never seen Scotty Kilmer but it must be remembered he's in good ole US of A and they do things different there and have different cars and oil regimes, he never works on modern VW.  Over there it's oil changes every 3k-miles, and the vehicles can do high annual mileage, imagine what they'd make of 10k-miles annual oil or 20k-miles.  I'm not sure which product you mean but you can get the Lucas products over here but I'm sure more local oil blenders would have similar products.  Oil and "gas" is less expensive for our 'allies'. 

 

Millers Engine Flush - 250ml - https://www.millersoils-shop.co.uk/engine-flush

 

Product Technical Data Sheet (PDF as attached below) - https://cdn.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/millersoils/Engine-Flush-1.pdf

 

 

Engine-Flush-1.pdf 330.27 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks for this suggestion. I'll definitely give it a try. 

 

Coming from a diesel I'm used to oil becoming black pretty quickly in the engine 🤣 is that not normal? I'll see what it's like today. 

 

I think I will give it a flush too! Thanks for the research!

Yes, that's magical snake oil, please don't use it, it probably doesn't do any harm but the manufacturer doesn't recommend it and neither do I.

Just now, sepulchrave said:

Yes, that's magical snake oil, please don't use it, it probably doesn't do any harm but the manufacturer doesn't recommend it and neither do I.

 

What do you think to changing the chain tensioner? Or is that ignition chain noise just part of the charm 😁

12 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

Yes, that's magical snake oil, please don't use it, it probably doesn't do any harm but the manufacturer doesn't recommend it and neither do I.

 

Wouldn't it just be easier doing the "Italian tune-up" on the car to clear carbon deposits anyway?

Changing the chain tensioner seems like an excellent idea to me.  

53 minutes ago, Meridion said:

 

What do you think to changing the chain tensioner? Or is that ignition chain noise just part of the charm 😁

 

If you're going to all that trouble you might as well change the chain and sprockets as well.

 

Seems excessive for a slight rattle that might not even be the chain...

I believe it's a much easier job on these than on the older HTPs etc.

Reading this thread, I don't think there is anything wrong with your chain.

 

Even with the revised chain and tensioner its possible to experience a brief chain rattle on start or more seriously a loud machine gun clatter

 

I've witnessed this on many occasions on 2 engines one 2011 with the revised kit, and another late 2013.

 

Two reasons behind this

 

1)  A brief (<2 secs) rattle at startup is possible because although the hydraulic tensioner is extended with oil pressure, there is also a ratchet mechanism incorporated. This is stepped, so its possible for it to slip back up to one step when stood, slightly loosening the guides. On earlier revisions, this ratchet was quite weak and could slip back or even strip completely and become useless. The new tensioner also extends to a longer length than the early one.

 

2) More seriously when the engine has turned backward or put in a situation where reverse torque has been applied. This happens for instance where the car is parked in a forward gear while facing uphill, transmitting a turning force in the reverse direction.  Perhaps you put the car in gear while you changed the filter and pushed the car back a bit, it only requires the slightest movement.....

 

This has the effect of tightening the chain and exerting excessive force on the adjustable guide,  forcing the tensioner back and simultaneously allowing the chain to go slack on the non adjustable side. This is quite a dangerous situation that could lead to chain detachment on the bottom sprocket depending on how stretched it is.

 

So, if you hear a really LOUD machine gun / death rattle on start up, SWITCH OFF IMMEDIATELY. Then restart and chances are all will be quiet as the chain will have engaged in the sprocket properly and oil pressure will have tensioned the adjustable side as you turned off.

 

There is an official method of measuring chain stretch and this involves removing the hydraulic actuator and measuring the position of the guide with a depth gauge.

However this is more about fobbing off a customer in my opinion.

 

A loud regular tick, rpm related is normally from the high pressure pump more audible at tick over and nothing to worry about.

 

Some misleading information about the oil filter, there is no non-return valve (thats in the oil pump), and the servicing drain down arrangement is a combination of the sprung wide O washer closing off the drain orifice in the oil housing, the smiley mouth in the pic below ..

 

There is a bypass valve built in the filter as most canister filters have, that opens to prevent loss of pressure when the filter is blocked but not relevant in this discussion.

 

I strongly advise against the use of the cup socket for tightening the filter as its really easy to overtighten which you will regret when it comes to removal when the O washer has swollen making it difficult to remove. Hand tight is fine.

 

I presume you have the correct filter, if you give us the exact part no you use I will check it is the later style.

Forget all about the carbon build up/flushing rubbish discussed earlier (unless its been totally neglected and done over 40,000 miles on the same oil) Best way to clean an engine internally is simply change the oil. (504.00 or 502.00)

Edited 26 November, 20214 yr by xman

ETA: I was typing as xman was posting so I've added attached PDF for more info on oil filter valves for anyone that wants it.

 

I just cleared my long post with replies to all, doh!

 

So I'll just put I agree with sepulchrave about the rattle and putting in too much time and cost, certainly before trying to clean things up more, but I don't agree with his oil belief on the Millers product and its possible use here.

 

For regular use oil you could look at using Millers EE Performance Engine Oil C3 5w30  - "Recommended for: . . . VW 504 00 / 507 00, VW 506 00 / 506 01, VW 503 00 / 503 01, VW 502 00 / 505 01, VW 502 00 / 505 00, VW 500 00 / 501 01". -https://www.millersoils.co.uk/products/ee-performance-c3-5w30/

 

Other oils are available,  Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30,Motul 8100 X-Clean+ 5w-30, Shell Helix HX8 ECT 5w-30, just as a few examples.

   

oilfiltervalves.pdf

Edited 26 November, 20214 yr by nta16

@xman how big a job is tensioner swap on these, please?

15 minutes ago, xman said:

Forget all about the carbon build up/flushing rubbish discussed earlier (unless its been totally neglected and done over 40,000 miles on the same oil) Best way to clean an engine internally is simply change the oil. (504.00 or 502.00)

Totally agree if the history of servicing is known but as you've put regular timely oil changes are the way but you can't turn back time and do it when others haven't.

 

If Meridion is concerned by the rattle then a quick easy £5 (or less depends where you buy) job of using the flush may take way the concerns (and do a bit of cleaning) and is less cost and hassle than £30 changing the tensioner and that introduces parts quality and disturbing other old settled parts that might not appreciate the disturbance.  I had a new chain fitted and the rattle that is always there at certain revs (30mph in 4th annoyingly) got worse with the new chain because of its cheap (£5) and poor quality it wasn't my choice of part fitted when better quality part was only £20.