What happens when it is 15 years old and some spotty oik is trying to get it going when the batteries are dead and they work on it like only spotty oiks can?

Those 17 year olds spotty oik are only 2 years old now and likely will not be anything like a 17 year old today.

 

The manufacturers have been told today supposedly what the percentage of EV,s that need to be registered in the UK.

They get to carry forward from one year if they register more than they were required to as i read it.

 

https://am-online.com/news/market-insight/2023/09/28/dft-finally-confirms-zev-mandate-15k-fines-per-car-for-missed-targets

 

 

 

Edited 28 September, 20232 yr by toot

54 minutes ago, toot said:

Brand new. 15 miles.   Under £20,000.

 

 

 

The maths don't add up somehow

 

49 months at £297.93 initial rental  £1,499 = £16,097.57

 

6ppm miles over 6,000 per annum

 

That will be because of the 'Optional Final payment'  required to be paid is it not if you want to own it after renting for 49 months. 

Maybe the price is low because the new model is due and they preregistered too many of the old one?

 

 

 

That will be the very reason.

The new bigger battery with a bit more power if you want to spend £10,000 more for that.

 

They will not have Pre-registered too many, they have little choice because they have Average Fleet Emissions to meet in the UK and if they are not getting enough of these registered they cant flog / register the higher emission ICE vehicles.   Averages.

Edited 28 September, 20232 yr by toot

1 minute ago, toot said:

That will be the very reason.

The new bigger battery with a bit more power if you want to spend £10,000 more for that.

 

And want a "New" car.

 

Not one that has been in storage for possibly months

Where have they been in Storage across in Spain or just anyplace in the EU or since coming into the UK?

They are not into having them hanging about they need the money. GBP money.

 

My Corsa-e was in lock down in a compound for months after coming into the UK just about 3 weeks after being built.

It left the port and the transporter could not continue north to Scotland.

Covid years.

Edited 28 September, 20232 yr by toot

2 hours ago, toot said:

Those 17 year olds spotty oik are only 2 years old now and likely will not be anything like a 17 year old today.

 

Todays 17 year olds are exactly like I was at 17 except perhaps less worldly wise and even more rash and idiotic if that were possible.

 

And there have not been the adult role models around (that I was lacking) for several generations now.

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I view this thread as an on-going discussion of many different topics. I think I missed 10 pages while I was away last week, just ignored it and joined in when I was able. 

 

I've only started reading this topic in the past few months and didn't start at the beginning.

It's 72 pages long now and you know what?

I still don't know what the truth about electric cars is other than they don't use an internal combustion engine (Hybrid excluded) 

 

13 hours ago, @Lee said:

 

I've only started reading this topic in the past few months and didn't start at the beginning. It's 72 pages long now and you know what?  I still don't know what the truth about electric cars is other than they don't use an internal combustion engine (Hybrid excluded) 

 

I have had my Zoe EV 2 years and done 15k miles in it and it is more pleasant to drive than similar 135-ish hp cars I have had.  I drive it a hundred times or more a year and it is,logically, the car of choice in and around town.  Doesn't need to warm up, I feel no issue flooring it 300 yards outside my house as there is no engine oil to warm up etc.  Have used it many times for journeys of 120 miles or so ie Worcester to Heathrow and whilst I have always manager to get a get some charge at my office there, bank of ten chargers, I could make it home without charging if needed, just need to adapt, ie slow down to 50-55 mph where the battery use is very much lower and take a detour thru the Cotswolds rather the Motorway which saves more than 15 miles so assures me of getting home. If I wanted to charge there are more than 100 chargers, mostly rapid DC ones, at Banbury so a 10 or 15 minute stop would top me up and I use my Octopus Electroverse card so get a discount on the quite high standard charge rates and the cost is billed to my home account which is in credit so no instant cost to me for charging then and there.  One pain is the Zoe battery pack means to height seat adjustment, only back and forward and steering wheel up and down.  Zoe has over the air Google satnav which is great.  Nearly exclusively charge at night at home which was 7.5p per kWh and is now 9p per kWh so energy is costing me about 2p a mile.  Had two services, first A service was £99 and second B service was £120.  Personally have no concerns about it catching fire but aware that thermal runaway can occur if battery cells were subjected to massive external heat or catastrophic collision resulting in rupture. No more worried with that than carrying 10 gallons of petrol in my tank.  As well as the Zoe, ZE 50 Riviera, I have a mild Hybrid Arkana (Samsung, bult in South Korea) and son has a brand new Clio ETECH full hybrid but is not a PHEV.  Both are a really pleasure to drive for me who does more than 25,000 miles a year.  Like the full EV the hybrids have great torque and being auto are very relaxing to drive and have plenty of pickup but also both do about 60 mpg in mixed driving, can do 70 mpg in relaxed A road and motorway driving. Nice to have them and the assurance one can drive 500, 600 miles without any need for stopping and charging, filling up.

 

EV benefit from massive UK government incentives, particularly salary sacrifice on the PCP which can give 42% reduction in the lease cost putting many cars in to people financial range.  TESLA model 3 and Y and even Audis and dare I say Porsche, not that I would go down that route.  UK EV charging network improving by the month and new charging place, often with 6 chargers or more popping up all over England and Wales I can see. No regrets getting the Zoe although the second hand prices have fallen a lot as Renault put a lot of ex PCP Zoes on to the market.  Battery degradation seems very low.  Very happy I have an EV in the fleet.  Would I want to have just a EV or EVs, no.  Range is not quite there for cheaper EVs but is getting there and offerings in a couple of years I think will be.  Road tax currently zero and will only move to about £20 a year in 2025 so I am sure running cost will continue to be very low.   Zoe will need a new lead acid 12v battery next year or in fourth year so cost of that £100 or so. 

 

Worrying that fuel prices seem to be heading back up to £2 a litre again and when I put petrol in the Arkana and Clio it sounds lack a lot if money to put £70 or even £50 respectively compared to the Zoe £5 which gets me  230 miles or so but I need to charge up two or three more often than I fill up of course.  Good to have a choice of electricity or petrol to use but that is perhaps quite unusual to have that option.  Most of the press I hear about EV hassles and worries and not ones I experience or share.  It is, however, worrying that China seems to have got the technological jump as well as sourcing of lithium and manufacturing of car battery packs.  I can see trade issues with this with Anti-Dumping Duties in to EU and UK to try and get Europe to catch up.  TESLA looks like it will mop up much of the car market and in fact vehicle charging too as it has a brilliant rollout strategy, should be good for consumers.  Bring it all on.

 

Edited 29 September, 20232 yr by lol-lol

This is pretty much the truth about EV,s.  One side of the story but it is very true. There are lots of CEO,s that so have their head in the sand.

 

 

 

58 minutes ago, toot said:

This is pretty much the truth about EV,s.  One side of the story but it is very true. There are lots of CEO,s that so have their head in the sand.

 

 

People not understanding Mr Musk seems to make them fearful when he is clearly driven by perfecting the products he sells are stepping stones to his new world vision and he does it as he is addicted to hard work and achieving goals and then moving on to the next major goal.

 

To understand Mr Musk it is not just his product is technically advanced but so is his production techniques which make the legacy manufacturers look like the are still stuck in their old ways and have forgotten what Fred Winslow Taylor and Henry Ford did.

 

Elon appies his, and his teams principals, to their car production and the rollout of the Super Charger network and the mega battery packs. Each is an application of KISS, Keep it Simple Stupid.  His cars have less parts due to the Giga presses, builds a car in a third of the time others do, Super Chargers are in sets of half dozen craned off the delivery lorry in to place and plugged in to the three phase high amperage network. Mega packs similarly no doubt.

 

Grid serve must be worried when someone comes along and sells power at two thirds the price to them and the small EV charge suppliers must hope that TESLA do not setup a charging hub anywhere near their installations.  TESLA will dominate the market for charging within a couple of years at current rate, if they can get sites with the right grid connection.

 

All good for us EV drivers looking for reliable and cheapest charging, I can see me getting a TESLA account quite soon.  Just need the model 3 to drop below the luxury car tax banding ie £40K RRP and it then has to be an EV at the top of the list to acquire.

 

To be fair, Nissan/Renault did provide the initial capital expense for the (back then Ecotricity, now Gridserve) Electric Highway charge points.

Back in 2017-2019, driving Leaf beyond home range relying on Electric Highway was not much of problem, if you don't mind stopping to recharge every hour of driving.

 

Also, there is currently concern by some UK EV drivers that Tesla are building too quickly and not always opening up to non-Tesla cars. This means the grid capacity is used up and pushing up installation cost/time for other (usually smaller) charge point operators.

 

 

I still think slow destination charging is the answer to EV adoption. Rapid charging should only be needed en-route somewhere. It enables cheaper charging and maximises EV convenience benefits. Yes, the problem is not every parking space is suitable for charge point install and it requires a large change in user mentality. Both are very difficult problem to solve in span of a few years.

National Grid myth busting article

 

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions

 

 

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

All good for us EV drivers looking for reliable and cheapest charging, I can see me getting a TESLA account quite soon.

 

I've had one for a while as it costs me nothing and allows access to supercharging sites open to all should I need them. I took out the subscription for my recent French trip and found the chargers to be fast and numerous, both in locations and number of stalls. Tesla in the UK is lagging behind Europe opening sites up, but if it becomes as ubiquitous as it is in France, the other players will need to really compete on price. Already Gridserve has direct price competition at Reading services, can only be good for us.

4 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

National Grid myth busting article

 

https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/electric-vehicles-myths-misconceptions

Quote

Through smart charging EVs can in fact help to balance the system, helping consumers use green power when it’s plentiful (and often cheaper) and avoid times when there’s more load on the network. Vehicle-to-grid technology could even send that power back to the grid when needed.

I've been saying this for a long time. EV's are an asset to support transition to renewables. But only when plugged in.

 

In the future, I can see the cheapest way to recharge is to use smart charging or V2G/H. Hopefully this clear benefit will make people plug in as much as possible when parked. Which hopefully speeds up changing away from refuelling mentality.

 

 

Alas, as usual, public charging will lag behind with these innovations.

All new build Houses should only pass planning with a fully south facing roof/solar panels and a power bank.

 

Should have been done years ago if Government had been serious about clean energy

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

I still think slow destination charging is the answer to EV adoption. Rapid charging should only be needed en-route somewhere. It enables cheaper charging and maximises EV convenience benefits. Yes, the problem is not every parking space is suitable for charge point install and it requires a large change in user mentality. Both are very difficult problem to solve in span of a few years.

Its not just down to user mentality, a lot has to be borne by the authorities, starting with some locally available charge points, either fast or slow, in local areas where users, unable to home charge can go to and leave their car charging (if slow destination types) in a secure facility with 24/7 security on site. This change is being forced through by them, and so they cannot just stand by and watch people struggle.

27 minutes ago, Luckypants said:

I've had one for a while as it costs me nothing and allows access to supercharging sites open to all should I need them. I took out the subscription for my recent French trip and found the chargers to be fast and numerous, both in locations and number of stalls. Tesla in the UK is lagging behind Europe opening sites up, but if it becomes as ubiquitous as it is in France, the other players will need to really compete on price. Already Gridserve has direct price competition at Reading services, can only be good for us.

This is another problem, the need for subscriptions, cards, apps etc, why the hell can they not be treated just like any petrol filling station, open to all and able to pay electronically or with cash instead of having virtually closed/restricted access unless you have the required car/app/subscription to allow you to access the energy at a fair and standard rate for all.🤔

Be careful about holding Mr Musk up as a shining example of a public-spirited person determined to drive costs down so that everyone can have access to his charging system and also an affordable car, have you all forgotten about past history and how people have started down similar paths only then to expose their ultimate aim and expose themselves capable of some despicable things? I'm not for a single moment suggesting that is what Mr Musk's intentions are, but all the same I'm cautious, as some of the things he has done don't quite seem to be logical.

Edited 29 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

35 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

This is another problem, the need for subscriptions, cards, apps etc, why the hell can they not be treated just like any petrol filling station, open to all and able to pay electronically or with cash instead of having virtually closed/restricted access unless you have the required car/app/subscription to allow you to access the energy at a fair and standard rate for all.🤔

Totally agree, but until we get to that point I'll play the game.

 

To be fair, Gridserve have no app or subscription and you turn up and pay (66p at present). They are mainly on the motorway, so helps make long distance travel in the UK easier.

(yes another app/card, but it's one card to [almost] rule them all)

Octopus Electroverse covers almost all the network. 8% discount for Intelligent Octopus smart charging tariff customers. For me, notable missing are Gridserve and Podpoint. Tesla and BP are also missing. Friends in the North would also point out Charge Place Scotland is missing.

Another benefit with Electroverse RFID card is that it wouldn't have that pre-auth problem.

 

All of the new rapid chargers are required to take contactless. The regulation to mandate contactless payments on rapid charger is going through the motions. There is also a 99% up time requirement. IMO 99% is pretty low, when in IT "five-nines availability " is the golden standard.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/consumer/new-law-make-ev-charging-network-99-reliable

 

Earlier i was charging my car on Edinburgh City Chargers and BP Pulse @ 55 pence a kWh.  Now i am 130 miles west and charhing for free.

 

I took pictures of the VW Buzz Van blocking a bay and not charging and was away to put on ZapMap & PlugShare but before i did i spotted a guy in the control unit shed from BP Pulse and they were at a faulty charger.  Nice guys, one with the van and one with a EV6. 

 

Anyway up pops a email while i was sitting and Eon Next made me an offer i could have refused but would have been stupid too.

I had to agree to a Smart Meter so i did, but then it was them that said previously the installer could not install it a couple of years back.

 

A special Tariff for special people, well ones that get the Warm Home Discount or have qualified in the past.

I might even charge the car at home occasionally this winter at this price, maybe even put heating on in the house. 

 

Half the price of Angus Council chargers @ 42 pence a kWh be that 7 or 43 / 50 kW, 

& even less than half with Tesco 7 kW @ 44 pence.  (But i am still using them for free since getting the MINI.)

 

 

Edited 29 September, 20232 yr by toot

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Its not just down to user mentality, a lot has to be borne by the authorities, starting with some locally available charge points, either fast or slow, in local areas where users, unable to home charge can go to and leave their car charging (if slow destination types) in a secure facility with 24/7 security on site. This change is being forced through by them, and so they cannot just stand by and watch people struggle.

 

UK Councils have no money, UK Governments have not money.

 

TESLA has very deep pockets and just needs the permission to get to work and change a site into TELSA charging hub.  No cost to the council, may even get a junction or road improvement out of it.

 

Grid Serve and others will need to sharpen their pencils and come up with some cheaper rates or deal to match TESLA who can easily under others as they manufacture their own charger units and I have heard are knocking them out at around a quarter the price than buying them off third parties that the other networks have to.

 

Not within council's power to install charges and can only offer to tender and what is happening in the States is that TELSA can quite easily win just about every tender.