4 hours ago, toot said:

If the papers today are reporting fact then Nissan is not building ICE vehicles from 2030.

Is this in the UK / EU?

 

The video yesterday posted on the Tesla Y had the Motoring Journalist say something funny about not being able to build ICE vehicles from 2030 being pushed back to 2035.

 

There was / is nothing against Building them for Export, it is about First Registering them in the UK from 2030 and for the time being the Tory Government saying it will now be 2035.

 

The UK manufacturers like Rolls Royce / Bentley, Nissan, MINI, JLR, Stellantis manufacture cars / vans for other world regions / countries.

 

 

Nissan have said

 

No more ICE development apart from in the US

 

All new cars for Europe will be BEV no Hybrids

 

Nissan to be fully electric car company by 2030

 

 

In various statements over the last couple of years

 

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/every-new-car-nissan-launches-europe-will-now-be-fully-electric

Edited 25 September, 20232 yr by Stonekeeper

Nissan’s earnings have exceeded the forecast made by the company, revised upward at the first-half financial results announcement. For the full fiscal year, consolidated net revenue was 10.6 trillion yen, resulting in an operating profit of 377.1 billion yen with an operating margin of 3.6%. Net income¹ was 221.9 billion yen. The fiscal year also marked Nissan’s return to positive free cash flow and operating profit for the automotive business. Automotive net cash was 1.2 trillion yen. Nissan plans to propose the payment of a year-end dividend of 10 yen per share for fiscal year 2022 at the general shareholders meeting.

 

 

https://global.nissannews.com/en/releases/230511-01-e

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

You either cannot read properly or have a strange way of rounding.

 

There is just a bit over a billions cars in the world.  Now about 4 % of them are EVs and this is rapidly changing.

There is just under half a billion vans and trucks.

There are about three quarter of a billion motorbikes.

 

Many vans and some trucks are now EVs. DPD in the UK and several European countries is more EV than ICE. 

There are several motorcycle manufacturers than make EV bikes and in the next few days Kawasaki will launch its EV bike..... (not got it quite right as it needed to be at least 10 kWs)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Errr...  I think it's you that cannot read or calculate properly...   the figure is 1.474 billion...   so 40 million is just 2.7%.  Your maths is wrong and either way it's still a very small percentage 

Edited 25 September, 20232 yr by skomaz

13 hours ago, skomaz said:

 

Errr...  I think it's you that cannot read or calculate properly...   the figure is 1.474 billion...   so 40 million is just 2.7%.  Your maths is wrong and either way it's still a very small percentage 

 

The thread is about electric cars and a vehicle ie motorised to carry people and sometimes goods is a very different beastie but one that has super relevance to where EV drivers are coming from ie stop burning carbon fuels and polluting our cities and there are cars and then there are quadricycles, 3 wheelers like tuk tuks and motorcycle and in the populous countries in the world, and the ones with very bad pollution in their cities the motorcycle, and three wheelers, are a huge part of the vehicle numbers.  Glad to see and share that electric 2 and 3 wheelers are in vast numbers and if taken overall for vehicles in this cities it is well in to double figured percentages not low single digit percentages.

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/07/20/100-million-2-wheel-electric-vehicles-in-2027/

 

According to a recent report from Rethink Energy, post-Covid pandemic electric 2-wheeler sales are recovering globally. Since 2021, there has been marginal growth in the sector, with a move towards electrification. However, they expect that by 2027, over 100 million electric 2-wheelers will be on the roads globally.  At the end of 2022, the global fleet of 2- and 3-wheel vehicles was estimated to be 292.4 million vehicles. Most of these can be found in China and India. Though, there has been significant sales growth in African countries. Indonesia and Vietnam also have large numbers of 2- and 3-wheelers.   2022 saw 2/3-wheel electric vehicle sales take up 49% of the total market, mostly because of China’s position as both the volume market leader and as the global leader in vehicle electrification, though other countries are continually picking up pace in electrifying new vehicle sales.

“China accounted for 53% of global 2-wheel vehicle sales in 2021, a staggering 70% of which ran on an electric motor. .....India sold 13.6 million 2/3-wheel vehicles in 2021 — 1% of which were electrified. In 2022, 15 million were sold — 5% of which were electric.

 

A quantum change is occurring and at a staggering pace and not seen so much here in the UK without the subsidies that were present but in those countries that really matter to world CO2 and urban pollution ie China and India particularly and it is looking like it is transforming at a pace far faster than Western countries an across all vehicle types 2, 3 and 4 wheeled ones.  I do not trust the UK Con party to be leaders in this but in this Asian Century there are Asian countries that are leading the way and not just in cars but with other vehicle types too. 

 

Edited 26 September, 20232 yr by lol-lol

Electric scooters only have two wheels an China's been pumping those out like no one's business. Are they included in the figures distorting them?

Perhaps keep numbers to EV mortorcycles, cars, RVs, SUVs and anything HGV chassied such as buses, HGV's, etc?

17 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

The thread is about electric cars and a vehicle ie motorised to carry people and sometimes goods is a very different beastie but one that has super relevance to where EV drivers are coming from ie stop burning carbon fuels and polluting our cities and there are cars and then there are quadricycles, 3 wheelers like tuk tuks and motorcycle and in the populous countries in the world, and the ones with very bad pollution in their cities the motorcycle, and three wheelers, are a huge part of the vehicle numbers.  Glad to see and share that electric 2 and 3 wheelers are in vast numbers and if taken overall for vehicles in this cities it is well in to double figured percentages not low single digit percentages.

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/07/20/100-million-2-wheel-electric-vehicles-in-2027/

 

According to a recent report from Rethink Energy, post-Covid pandemic electric 2-wheeler sales are recovering globally. Since 2021, there has been marginal growth in the sector, with a move towards electrification. However, they expect that by 2027, over 100 million electric 2-wheelers will be on the roads globally.  At the end of 2022, the global fleet of 2- and 3-wheel vehicles was estimated to be 292.4 million vehicles. Most of these can be found in China and India. Though, there has been significant sales growth in African countries. Indonesia and Vietnam also have large numbers of 2- and 3-wheelers.   2022 saw 2/3-wheel electric vehicle sales take up 49% of the total market, mostly because of China’s position as both the volume market leader and as the global leader in vehicle electrification, though other countries are continually picking up pace in electrifying new vehicle sales.

“China accounted for 53% of global 2-wheel vehicle sales in 2021, a staggering 70% of which ran on an electric motor. .....India sold 13.6 million 2/3-wheel vehicles in 2021 — 1% of which were electrified. In 2022, 15 million were sold — 5% of which were electric.

 

A quantum change is occurring and at a staggering pace and not seen so much here in the UK without the subsidies that were present but in those countries that really matter to world CO2 and urban pollution ie China and India particularly and it is looking like it is transforming at a pace far faster than Western countries an across all vehicle types 2, 3 and 4 wheeled ones.  I do not trust the UK Con party to be leaders in this but in this Asian Century there are Asian countries that are leading the way and not just in cars but with other vehicle types too. 

 

 

So - you remind me the thread is about cars and then you go on to talk about any other type of vehicle...???   It's a shame you always try to distract - what's the word that keeps getting used - oh yes - "whataboutery"!

 

Regardless of your post it doesn't change the fact that you called out others, accusing them of being unable to read or calculate and yet you could do neither yourself.  Quite hypocritical, poor manners and unnecessary.

15 minutes ago, @Lee said:

Electric scooters only have two wheels an China's been pumping those out like no one's business. Are they included in the figures distorting them?

Perhaps keep numbers to EV mortorcycles, cars, RVs, SUVs and anything HGV chassied such as buses, HGV's, etc?

 

Not sure Lee - there's so many different and confusing figures about and some of the above posts aren't easily readable or understandable due to grammar, spelling and missing words etc.

 

My guess is some people talk about 'vehicles' whilst others break the figures down by 'type'.  However you look at it though EV's of whatever type still only make up a small proportion of the total - albeit as others point out it is starting to change with varying rates depending upon country and vehicle type.  We're still some way off parity or EVs being in the majority overall though and that probably won't happen quickly given the longevity of many vehicles and the fact that some countries have no EV mandate etc.

@lol-lol Yes, change is indeed happening, but that change can also swing back if governments keep kicking the can away. Anyway the point is still the same as has been already pointed out, that change is still very small and if you are now widening the EV part up to include other types of vehicle, then to be absolutely fair to all and everyone else in the discussion, you need to do the same for all the ICE equivalents that you have just excluded in order to skew the discussion in favour of EVs. If you do that, I'm pretty sure that the overall figures will remain almost static in their relationships to each other. 

 

Another point to take into consideration is that EV adoption is heavily skewed anyway because in China there are parking lots and fields of unsold EV cars that have already been registered for their own nefarious reasons, so they are also included in your figures, but they are replacing any fuel burning vehicles, but they have all massively increased the amount of pollution that has been generated in their production just to sit there and rot in fields. I also suspect that China is not alone in the distortion of these figures, either.

 

What will you do next, add in e-scooters and hoverboards, drones etc? 😉 Face it, to get people to make a massive swing towards EVs, there are still issues to be resolved and there is very little point in making them mandatory until the bigger picture has been addressed and resolved and people can see that they offer cleaner and cheaper transport, but that also has to be at lower cost of ownership. No point is claiming that the longer term ownership will reduce the cost of ownership with home charging etc, remember that a large proportion of the worlds' population cannot home charge like you can.

1 hour ago, skomaz said:

 

So - you remind me the thread is about cars and then you go on to talk about any other type of vehicle...???   It's a shame you always try to distract - what's the word that keeps getting used - oh yes - "whataboutery"!

 

Regardless of your post it doesn't change the fact that you called out others, accusing them of being unable to read or calculate and yet you could do neither yourself.  Quite hypocritical, poor manners and unnecessary.

 

I was simply picking up Graham on the use of the terms Billions for total cars when it is just over one billion for cars and 1 and a half billion including the vans etc whereas Billions, to most people I reckons is several billions ie at least 3 but probably 4 or more.  If one said there were several people in the room it would not mean there was one person or one person and a child but a group of 4 or I would say 5 or move to qualify as several billion which billions implies.

 

As to cars I point out the terms is both ambiguous and vague to many.  So a Twizzy with full sized motor is a car but with the smaller motor is a quadricycle.  Looks the same.  Tuk Tuks, of which there are millions of them, are not cars even though they often carry six, or more, people but just have 3 wheels, not a car.

We were talking about registered cars and there are hundred of thousands made in the last weeks awaiting buyer pickup and registration.  There are millions of unsold ICE cars, not registered yet, apparently you can pickup an Audi Q5 for less than $10k they are so unwanted in China. 

 

Most the "EVs" in fields in China are actually hybrids and not full EVs.  There has been a wholesale fraud exercise in China where some have been claiming the big EV subsidies and then removing the battery pack in to another chassis and claiming the subsidy again leaving a car at the scrapper as a shell without the valuable battery pack.  They are being dealt with by Chinese authorities and probably will not see the light of day in a long time if ever.  What is obvious to say is that EV adoption is happening at a technical disruption speed with ICE cars being scrapped early as they are no long viable compared to EVS ro being hollowed out and the guts being replaced by EV gubbins. Not so obvious with the UK but in the really big countries it is happening at a pace which is binning the old tech ICE for EV and those countries will be net richer for it rather than buying oil from despotes. 

 

Edited 26 September, 20232 yr by lol-lol

6 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

I was simply picking up Graham on the use of the terms Billions for total cars when it is just over one billion for cars and 1 and a half billion including the vans etc whereas Billions, to most people I reckons is several billions ie at least 3 but probably 4 or more.  If one said there were several people in the room it would not mean there was one person or one person and a child but a group of 4 or I would say 5 or move to qualify as several billion which billions implies.

 

As to cars I point out the terms is both ambiguous and vague to many.  So a Twizzy with full sized motor is a car but with the smaller motor is a quadricycle.  Looks the same.  Tuk Tuks, of which there are millions of them, are not cars even though they often carry six, or more, people but just have 3 wheels, not a car.

We were talking about registered cars and there are hundred of thousands made in the last weeks awaiting buyer pickup and registration.  There are millions of unsold ICE cars, not registered yet, apparently you can pickup an Audi Q5 for less than $10k they are so unwanted in China. 

 

Most the "EVs" in fields in China are actually hybrids and not full EVs.  There has been a wholesale fraud exercise in China where some have been claiming the big EV subsidies and then removing the battery pack in to another chassis and claiming the subsidy again leaving a car at the scrapper as a shell without the valuable battery pack.  They are being dealt with by Chinese authorities and probably will not see the light of day in a long time if ever.  What is obvious to say is that EV adoption is happening at a technical disruption speed with ICE cars being scrapped early as they are no long viable compared to EVS ro being hollowed out and the guts being replaced by EV gubbins. Not so obvious with the UK but in the really big countries it is happening at a pace which is binning the old tech ICE for EV and those countries will be net richer for it rather than buying oil from despotes. 

 

Be that as it may, I still think your claim is flawed, but I'm bored with this now as it is just expanding way beyond what it started out as which was how it is happening in the UK, but you seem to be drawing more into the equation at each point to justify your view point that electric is the way to go, and I'm fine with your view you are perfectly entitled to your view, as are the rest of us entitled to our own views. The plain and simple truth, (forgetting all discussions about good or bad for the planet) is that the vast amount of the public apparently are not currently taking up the EV option and the overall discussion was about why that might be. Cost, lack of finances, charging infrastructure etc, can you not accept that?

 

The billions, should have been edited, but I thought that the link did that for me, and it clearly mentioned the figure of 1.474 billion and left it at that as anyone following the thread would have opened the link and seen the correct figure, so your claim of 3 or 4 is just a red herring as is the Audi Q5 in China which can be had for less than £10k, apparently. Trouble is I live in the UK, a car built to Chinese specs may not be suitable for the UK, and then you still have to add in the shipping, import duties, and all the red tape and costs incurred in getting the Q5 registered here in the UK and sort out the warranties etc. 

 

Where are you going to look for anything else to add in to your figures, next.  I started out by pointing out that your claim of 40 million was actually higher than the official figure for the UK which was somewhere around 35 million including all the ICE powered cars. I had clearly stated that it was the UK I was talking about, not the world.

 

Is it any wonder that YouTube has a name for people who just cannot bear to hear anything said against EV vehicles when people cannot accept what they can actually see with their own eyes happening right in front of them?

 

 

Reading this SMMT statement The sales of Electric vehicles is gathering pace, of all the electric vehicles in the top sentence a fair proportion were bought since the end of 2021.

 

Almost 10% of that BEV April 2023 figure (760,445) was bought in March 2023 (76,233)

 

They claim 500,000 BEV/PHEV will be sold this year which is just under a third of last years total car sales of 1.6 million in the UK

Edited 26 September, 20232 yr by Stonekeeper

6 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

Reading this SMMT statement The sales of Electric vehicles is gathering pace, of all the electric vehicles in the top sentence a fair proportion were bought since the end of 2021.

 

Almost 10% of that BEV April 2023 figure (760,445) was bought in March 2023 (76,233)

 

They claim 500,000 will be sold this year which is just under a third of last years total car sales of 1.6 million in the UK

True, but the overall figure is still small in comparison at this juncture. 

Aaa the SMMT. Smoke and mirrors and statistics and fuddle not fiddle.

 

They are never going to say that the Manufacturers are First Registering any and every EV that they can and getting them out there.

Hire cars, cheap lease deals, to fleets etc etc.

There are ones in demand and there are lots that are going to be very low use used cars.

 

It is just what the manufacturers have always done to make models not look like flops or to have them in the Top 5 SOLD in a quarter, 6 months etc.

Vauxhall, Ford, VW Group, especially SEAT, but VW & Skoda as well.

Pre-reg. 

 

 

Edited 26 September, 20232 yr by toot

True, I know of approximately 50 Skodas that are preregistered sitting on an airfield. There used to a big field here that was home to about 100 or so new Fords, but I'm not sure if they were preregistered or not as the cars were parked side on the point of view, behind locked gates and some distance from the vantage point.

Edited 26 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

More good news and from Stellantis who have not always had the best of feedback on their EVs but in recent months I have been hearing more and more good things about Stellantis ie Citroen,Fiat, Peugeot, Opel,  Vauxhall etc... Ah my old Berlingo, the space.

The new slightly larger batteries and incremental improvement on drive train seem to have made the range somewhat better.  Still not great but running costs are tilting the balance for many users to move over from ICE to EV......... 

 

https://www.just-auto.com/news/stellantis-starts-ev-van-output-at-ellesmere-port/?cf-view

Stellantis has started electric van production at its rejigged Ellesmere Port factory in England.It is the UK’s first EV-only manufacturing plant and the first Stellantis plant dedicated to electric vehicles following a GBP100m investment to switch the plant to EV production.  It will produce the Vauxhall Combo Electric, Opel Combo Electric, Peugeot e-Partner, Citroen e-Berlingo and Fiat E-Doblo compact vans.

 

 

4 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

More good news and from Stellantis who have not always had the best of feedback on their EVs but in recent months I have been hearing more and more good things about Stellantis ie Citroen,Fiat, Peugeot, Opel,  Vauxhall etc... Ah my old Berlingo, the space.

The new slightly larger batteries and incremental improvement on drive train seem to have made the range somewhat better.  Still not great but running costs are tilting the balance for many users to move over from ICE to EV......... 

 

https://www.just-auto.com/news/stellantis-starts-ev-van-output-at-ellesmere-port/?cf-view

Stellantis has started electric van production at its rejigged Ellesmere Port factory in England.It is the UK’s first EV-only manufacturing plant and the first Stellantis plant dedicated to electric vehicles following a GBP100m investment to switch the plant to EV production.  It will produce the Vauxhall Combo Electric, Opel Combo Electric, Peugeot e-Partner, Citroen e-Berlingo and Fiat E-Doblo compact vans.

 

 

"The Truth About Electric Cars" is the thread - your post is re a van???

The truth of Stallantis is that Autocar, Auto Express, Car Wow or who ever need to get these vehicles out and run a variety of them and see how far they actually go on the batteries they had or the slightly larger ones an with an ickle more powerful settings of the motors.

 

Ask the question why the Citroen C4 does better than the sister models or brands.

 

They are over priced IMO and the efficiency is crap.   Sadly people are getting landed with them by employers getting great deals to just take and run them.

20 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

"The Truth About Electric Cars" is the thread - your post is re a van???

The photo would certainly imply that was the case, I think, anyway? If so then its a deviation from the thread.

Edited 26 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

They are all relevant even though light commercials.

 

People have landed themselves with the MPV versions and some are hopeless for journeys.

Then the commercials can be Crew Busses and will be converted to Campers etc.   So there will be private / family or individuals as well as companies owning or driving them.

FOr Mr Skomaz (what does that mean, it does not Google well) et al, Oxford English Dictionary defines a car as 

 

https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=car

"A road vehicle powered by a motor (usually an internal combustion engine), designed to carry a driver and a small number of passengers, "

 

So yes a van is a car, like your MX5 only just qualifies when it can only carry a driver and one passenger, perhaps better described as a hair dresser's accessory, but some vans only have two seat. The Caddy van my daughter drives, have two rows of seats, a car, 5 seats I think it is, pickup "truck", also a car, Morgan Three Wheeler, also a car, tuk tuk, a car, a citroen Ami, a quadricycle but also a car by the Oxford English dictionary.

 

I know you tells us you did your arts course at Oxford but that is what is says, all cars so valid I would say including the van production on this Truth about EV cars and a time to celebrate hundreds of millions of pounds of investment in the UK by that multi-national corporation Stellantis, good on them.  Even Bjorn Nyland, the EV guru likes a recent Citroen EV.     

Takes me back to the days as a young Customs Officer when people would buy a "van" ie no windows past the B pillar, and then sneakily put in the windows and the second row of seats the sneaky devils and we Officers would find them out and charge them the 10% car excise duty plus a fine of course, those were the days !  How much difference for a van to a car, zero by definition, just more semantics from the luddite types. 

 

Edited 26 September, 20232 yr by lol-lol

51 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

FOr Mr Skomaz (what does that mean, it does not Google well) et al, Oxford English Dictionary defines a car as 

 

https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=car

"A road vehicle powered by a motor (usually an internal combustion engine), designed to carry a driver and a small number of passengers, "

 

So yes a van is a car, like your MX5 only just qualifies when it can only carry a driver and one passenger, perhaps better described as a hair dresser's accessory, but some vans only have two seat. The Caddy van my daughter drives, have two rows of seats, a car, 5 seats I think it is, pickup "truck", also a car, Morgan Three Wheeler, also a car, tuk tuk, a car, a citroen Ami, a quadricycle but also a car by the Oxford English dictionary.

 

I know you tells us you did your arts course at Oxford but that is what is says, all cars so valid I would say including the van production on this Truth about EV cars and a time to celebrate hundreds of millions of pounds of investment in the UK by that multi-national corporation Stellantis, good on them.  Even Bjorn Nyland, the EV guru likes a recent Citroen EV.     

Takes me back to the days as a young Customs Officer when people would buy a "van" ie no windows past the B pillar, and then sneakily put in the windows and the second row of seats the sneaky devils and we Officers would find them out and charge them the 10% car excise duty plus a fine of course, those were the days !  How much difference for a van to a car, zero by definition, just more semantics from the luddite types. 

 

 

Oh dear...   very sad

On 24/09/2023 at 14:04, Stonekeeper said:

 

Payloads

 

 

 

 

I wonder how many people the Minibus version will carry?

 

 

 

We sometimes load full sized HGVs and only put two tonnes in them as the cargo is empty drinks cans.

 

On the other hand I have seized vehicles with max gross weights of 3500 kgs, taken out enough weight to fill a swb transit and 3500 Luton was still right at the weight limit.

 

Easily done and with Solas regs got to be even more careful now 

 

3 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

We sometimes load full sized HGVs and only put two tonnes in them as the cargo is empty drinks cans.

 

On the other hand I have seized vehicles with max gross weights of 3500 kgs, taken out enough weight to fill a swb transit and 3500 Luton was still right at the weight limit.

 

Easily done and with Solas regs got to be even more careful now 

 

 

 

The strangest allowed conversion i have seen are 3500kg car transporters.

 

Effectively a Peugeot 107 carrier?

 

What will an ev version be able to carry?

 

 

Edited 26 September, 20232 yr by Stonekeeper

1 minute ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

The strangest allowed conversion i have seen are 3500kg car transporters.

 

Effectively a Peugeot 107 carrier?

 

 

 

Oh I think I can match that and possibly go one better. 

 

Similar chassis, Fiat I think, an x Ray van, car, thingy, I had to drive sometimes.

 

Way over the 3500 kgs.

No road tax.

Crown exemption.

 

Broke down a lot as could not really haul itself and Plymouth is hilly.