@wyx087 While the ones you checked might not have used that precise word or phrase, they seem to be proudly stating they only use green electricity, and I for am rather sceptical that they actually live up to their promise about replacing the power you use, with the same amount of power from green producers. OK there may well be some that do keep their promises, or at least purchase enough from the greener sources so that they can show that have indeed purchased some.

 

There is as always the temptation not to do so in order to maximise their profits for their own bonuses at the year-end and also to pay shareholders their dividends. 

 

You are both essentially saying the same thing, more people on green tariff makes it uneconomical and/or supplier use non-green to maximise profit.

 

I agree and I cannot guarantee there is no greenwashing with all green tariffs without in-depth digging into their finances and reviewing their green accreditation. If you want to prove your theories, I suggest finding out how they gained their green accreditation would be the first place to start.

 

I was only pointing out the method of paying green generators in green tariff is exactly how energy market works. There is no point tracing the exact energy source.

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

You are both essentially saying the same thing, more people on green tariff makes it uneconomical and/or supplier use non-green to maximise profit.

 

I agree and I cannot guarantee there is no greenwashing with all green tariffs without in-depth digging into their finances and reviewing their green accreditation. If you want to prove your theories, I suggest finding out how they gained their green accreditation would be the first place to start.

 

I was only pointing out the method of paying green generators in green tariff is exactly how energy market works. There is no point tracing the exact energy source.

No, I can accept that view point, but I can't be bothered to do the digging, how would it benefit me?  I have far better things to do with my time.

 

Maybe I'm just a tad too cynical for doubting, but my confidence in businesses and politicians to do the right and honourable thing has taken a few hard knocks over the last few years to the point that they would need to prove to me anything that they said was true before I would trust them

5 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

to the point that they would need to prove to me anything that they said was true before I would trust them

Accreditation or certification are meant for exactly that. Look at it’s methodology and stringentness. Just like many things brought up in this thread, text we type are worthless. 
 

In my day job, I went through a design assurance accreditation for my design, presented as design process example for my company. It was extremely thorough and no stone unturned. Any minor non conformity was put under a microscope. 

All a load of guff when it is pretended that wood pellets brought supposedly on ship that run on LNG Carriers to the UK to be burned at DRAX is renewables & green energy. 

Then is receiving Billions of £ in subsidies. 

 

So much electricity is produced or can be in Scotland yet not used as the National Grid does not take it or can not take it.

The pylons are required & the Sub Stations which are huge, the semiconductors are are required and the offshore substations and generators / converters. 

Chicken and egg and the chickens are there, the eggs can be there but no transportation to get to the customers who rather buy from abroad for more money because tied into contracts.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67126815

 

 

The inward investments have been there & is there, then the UK government let the offersea owned National Grid do as they like & keep taking profits and not being efficient or giving value to the UK and customers.

Edited 10 December, 20232 yr by Rooted

2 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Accreditation or certification are meant for exactly that. Look at it’s methodology and stringentness. Just like many things brought up in this thread, text we type are worthless. 
 

In my day job, I went through a design assurance accreditation for my design, presented as design process example for my company. It was extremely thorough and no stone unturned. Any minor non conformity was put under a microscope. 

A few years ago I was part of a team charged with the introduction of a Quality Assurance scheme, BS9001, which for the large part is not worth the paper it is written on as many companies let standards slip. There are rules and regulations for water companies about the treatment of effluent, and yet we have loads of illegal discharges into our rivers and sea.

5 hours ago, Rooted said:

All a load of guff when it is pretended that wood pellets brought supposedly on ship that run on LNG Carriers to the UK to be burned at DRAX is renewables & green energy. 

Then is receiving Billions of £ in subsidies. 

I have not seen this referenced by energy suppliers, only solar/wind/hydro. But they are using wording that allows inclusive of such sources, so DRAX is likely included despite it is only renewable in concept but it is still burning and producing pollution.

 

At very least the carbon produced wasn't originally locked away underground.

 

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

A few years ago I was part of a team charged with the introduction of a Quality Assurance scheme, BS9001, which for the large part is not worth the paper it is written on as many companies let standards slip. There are rules and regulations for water companies about the treatment of effluent, and yet we have loads of illegal discharges into our rivers and sea.

You have cynical opinions, entirely understandable.

 

It would be useful to stick to facts. Key is digging up the facts from credible sources, and let that prove your point.

 

The fact is there is accreditation for renewable tariffs. Here's one I found:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-and-social-schemes/renewable-energy-guarantees-origin-rego

Just a small point & OT, but also on topic.

 

'They' want to have people stop using Peat to burn or for agriculture. Lots of trapped carbons. Fair Enough.

 

Do there are Wind Farm / Turbine built where Peat is removed, supposedly reinstated. Kidology.  But then lots of GREEN Environmental stuff is SMOKE & Mirrors and kidology.

 

Real world.  Follow the money.

They will calculate what ever suits them filling their boots.

 

 

Edited 10 December, 20232 yr by Rooted

In 2022, 40%  of electricity came from renewables.

 

 

 

 

So 40% supplying 65% of the domestic market?

 

 

Does that mean no business or industry can claim to be using renewable energy?

 

 

Households have consistently ranked as the largest electricity final users in the country. In 2022, households in the UK consumed 96 terawatt-hours of electricity, or roughly 35 percent of the total consumption.11 Oct 2023

 

So there is a bit left at the moment then

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 10 December, 20232 yr by Stonekeeper

https://www.iucn-uk-peatlandprogramme.org/about-peatlands/peatland-damage

David Cameron when a MP & PM took his clique to China including his wifes father and signed up for lots of steel and wind turbines.

The wifes Step Fathers family, The Astors have lots of land hosting wind farms.

 

The Leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats when in government with the Labour party in Scotland is the Mr Big of onshore Windfarms and offshore ones now, Baron  Nicol Ross Stephen.

 

Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon MSP went on with the close relationship with China.   We got the privilege of paying millions to be able to lease Pandas for Edinburgh Zoo.

 

Now Scotland can generate electricity to supply about 6 times more homes than there are and also industry several times and have 1 nuclear power station due to close and yet pay among the highest standing charges and tariffs there are in the UK.

 

Plenty are profiting though. Land Owners, Developers, those managing and running the turbines or not even running them, just collecting for them not generating.

 

What a bl00dy nice little earner it is for those and such as those.

Edited 10 December, 20232 yr by Rooted

@Rooted and @Stonekeeper This is precisely why I'm sceptical of anything to do with being green as much of it just that greenwash.

 

Surely those that cannot see why so many are doubters cannot deny all raw sewage being dumped, there are all kinds of bent things going on that if you or I were attempting it, would be thrown into prison for, but those big boys get away with it all the time.

 

I remember there were, at one time, simply loads of builders claiming that they were members of the "Federation of Master Builders" and even had the logo sign written on their vans, printed on their stationary and business cards. Similar thing happened IIRC with upholsterers etc, some were falsely claiming membership of "The Guild of Master Craftsmen".

 

As Rooted rightly said, follow the money.

 

Edited 10 December, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

The thing is that there is not enough renewables generated anyplace near the UK for all these homes and Industries that supposedly are using it. 

There could be, but as it is taking electricity from overseas is how the nonsense works while paying out to people in the UK who might not even have their money in the UK economy and off in Tax Havens and oversea territories. 

So we might be able to guess just which Political Party they might support, or actually they will hedge their bets and back all of them. 

3 minutes ago, Rooted said:

The thing is that there is not enough renewables generated anyplace near the UK for all these homes and Industries that supposedly are using it. 

There could be, but as it is taking electricity from overseas is how the nonsense works while paying out to people in the UK who might not even have their money in the UK economy and off in Tax Havens and oversea territories. 

So we might be able to guess just which Political Party they might support, or actually they will hedge their bets and back all of them. 

Politics is in its current form, a dirty business, and it generates corruption.

Edited 10 December, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

2 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

In 2022, 40%  of electricity came from renewables.

 

 

 

 

So 40% supplying 65% of the domestic market?

 

 

Does that mean no business or industry can claim to be using renewable energy?

 

 

Households have consistently ranked as the largest electricity final users in the country. In 2022, households in the UK consumed 96 terawatt-hours of electricity, or roughly 35 percent of the total consumption.11 Oct 2023

 

So there is a bit left at the moment then

 

 

 

 

 

Energy come from renewable does not equal to percentage of market. 
 

One is consumption of total energy. 
Latter is amount of customers signed up to this tariff, over total number of customers. 
 

Meaning, more high users not on green tariffs. 

^^^ Lots of people with Smart meters signed up to GREEN Electricity, possibly higher users of electricity, charging EV,s etc, getting paid in some times to use less or plug in and charge the car to help balance the grid.

 

Just the con that is for a future story on how you can con fool some of the people much of the time but not fool all the people all of the time.

4 hours ago, Rooted said:

^^^ Lots of people with Smart meters signed up to GREEN Electricity, possibly higher users of electricity, charging EV,s etc, getting paid in some times to use less or plug in and charge the car to help balance the grid.

 

Just the con that is for a future story on how you can con fool some of the people much of the time but not fool all the people all of the time.

Getting paid to charge EV and/or use less are all due to variable renewable generation. Thus it stands to reason it is MORE likely that the actual kWh used by those participating are coming from green generation sources.

 

EV households are, unfortunately, still the minority.

There are large households who really do use a lot and usually couldn't give a hoot their energy sources. Their energy consumption rivals EV households. For example the plumber I usually use was here on Friday, he says his house energy direct debit is almost £300. Honest hard working man without smart meter, just a large multi-generation household.

 

Feel free to doubt and be cynical, it's also not as clear cut as I'd have liked. But there isn't anything I've came across that suggests foul play with green tariffs.

10 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Getting paid to charge EV and/or use less are all due to variable renewable generation. Thus it stands to reason it is MORE likely that the actual kWh used by those participating are coming from green generation sources.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing any logic here, surely it's more a case of more power consumed than the grid can cope with so at peak times they are asking people to delay plugging the EV in, make that cup of tea later or earlier, do the weekly washing later in the evening or overnight to save them having to fire up more gas fired generators to cover the excess loading. This saves them considerable gas costs and thus uses more power at a time when the excess energy produced would normally just be wasted?

 

Sometimes it really is the simple things that are true.

Edited 10 December, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

15 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Sorry, but I'm not seeing any logic here, surely it's more a case of more power consumed than the grid can cope with so at peak times they are asking people to delay plugging the EV in, make that cup of tea later or earlier, do the weekly washing later in the evening or overnight to save them having to fire up more gas fired generators to cover the excess loading. This saves them considerable gas costs and thus uses more power at a time when the excess energy produced would normally just be wasted?

 

Sometimes it really is the simple things that are true.

It's "a case of more power consumed than the grid can cope with so at peak times they are asking people to delay plugging the EV in, ...... to save them having to fire up more gas fired generators to cover the excess loading." Thereby reduce the likelihood of using not-renewable sources by EV owners.

 

When renewables are high, smart meter incentives are in place so people would "uses more power at a time when the excess energy produced would normally just be wasted".

 

Think about what you wrote.

Nice try but I think it is more likely to save them paying for gas then encouraging EV owners to use more green power, especially if they have to buy that renewable energy. Remember, we have had off peak tarrifs years before there was renewable sources. If they can get more power used over night and other less demanding times, they make more profit. If the demand is 20MW and there generators kick out 50MW then they are missing out on 30MW of sales. Follow the money, it usually pays off.

To encourage people to get a smart meter there will be all sorts of offers to make people believe they can have "cheaper" times.

 

 

Once everyone is sucked in, using AI the provider will be able to work out when you are not in and offer the Cheaper tariffs at those times and hammer you when they know the times you cannot avoid.

With all of these things, smart meters, digital money, cars that keeping calling base all the time, over the air software updates etc, there is as always a hidden agenda. They are harvesting our data, we are then a commodity and our data is being sold and used. All of these things are sold to us as benefits of one kind or another in order to get more of us signing up for them, and they get more data on us. 

 

59 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

To encourage people to get a smart meter there will be all sorts of offers to make people believe they can have "cheaper" times.

 

 

Once everyone is sucked in, using AI the provider will be able to work out when you are not in and offer the Cheaper tariffs at those times and hammer you when they know the times you cannot avoid.

The UK Government have already given the power suppliers targets for by when we are all supposed to have smart meters installed.

I never got my Smart Meter fitted yet and now i have a £100 offer to get one.

Eventually there will be one fitted, just not this winter.

 

Maybe it will be one that works.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-67591320

 

Rewarding those that are high users while those that are possibly the lowest users of electricity is a pure pith take, and rewarding anyone in the London area really is taking the absolute pith take.  Double the tariff at peak rate possible shortage time. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 11 December, 20232 yr by Rooted

If they have offered you £100 to have one fitted, that's a huge indication that they know they are going make that much back again quickly and much more. 

Edited 11 December, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher