£8 credit from Octopus for the 3 hours of free electricity a few days ago and another £3 for the hour of free just before that. Nearly £500 in credit so well good for the winter ahead.

See what deals there will be for Black Friday which seems to last most of November now and another solar generator on the agenda i think. Need to get one that can charge the EVs.

Renault 5 has vehicle to load but have to get the adapter as not included in the 40 kwh version I am getting.

Budget month too !!

Edited 31 October, 202531 Oct by lol-lol

Perth Broxden Park & Ride TESLA Super Charger Peak time Pricing is now the same cost as the Perth & Kinross Council Chargers there.

But they are 50 kW max charging speed. & damn unreliable.

My first choice is the Tesla charging, but these days they are much more busy. For the past years there might be 1 or 2 in use at any one time, occasionally a few more. but really they were pretty much always available.

3 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

600 kWh charged exclusively at Tesla’s peak rate 40p equals £240, plus £10 membership cost. Still cheaper than diesels.

Off peak prices are as low as around 28p/kwh.

Ionity also have membership to bring cost down to around 45p/kwh.

It would be mad to not get membership if can’t charge at home and need to rely on public charging.

I like Ionity, good chargers near Magor services and a fresh bunch due to open soon at South Gloucester next to Maccie Dees so less like likely to be vandalised, cable stolen by the scum.

45 minutes ago, classic said:

Said people, that would like to move to EV but can’t, should be telling the politicians that instead of saying “I’ll stick to ICE this doesn’t work for me.”

Oh come on now, surely that is precisely the message that they are already and have been sending to the politicians by pi55 poor adoption of BEV,s over the last few years and still today, ICE cars are selling the most, followed by hybrids and PHEVs. Are the politicians so thick that they cannot see the evidence for themselves?

Now, my Kodiaq (nicking @lol-lol s phrase) wiesel 2L car which is averaging around 40mpg, then at ^.45 a gallon for that wiesel fuel, then 2000 miles would cost £322.50, saving a massive £148.50.

What's more, I don't think that 0-60mph figure of around 9.3seconds is perfectly adequate, it keeps up with all the other traffic and sometimes have to lift my foot off the gas when following some BEVs who are clearly attempting to drive economically to max their range. Also, as you get older, it is a fact that your reaction times also slow down, so being exceptionally fast off the line can be dangerous then.

P1$$ poor adoption by private buyers of BEV,s, general public not Business / Commercial users, maybe other than those getting Salary Sacrifice etc.

But there are plenty being First Registered and 'Much Cheapness' available for those wanting a nearly new / unused BEV.

There are great incentives for buying or leasing Company cars.

As to the £40,000 or over ones, these as well.

Edited 31 October, 202531 Oct by Evolution13

Yes, the private buyer can take advantage of the pre-registered cars with only delivery mileage on and save a packet, but that is only part of the storey, there is still the high cost of public charging and possibility of unreliable chargers and the ongoing depreciation to be factored in, so even those pre-registered cars might still in the long run be more expensive in real terms to the owner?

Edited 31 October, 202531 Oct by Graham Butcher

14 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh come on now, surely that is precisely the message that they are already and have been sending to the politicians by pi55 poor adoption of BEV,s over the last few years and still today, ICE cars are selling the most, followed by hybrids and PHEVs. Are the politicians so thick that they cannot see the evidence for themselves?

Now, my Kodiaq (nicking @lol-lol s phrase) wiesel 2L car which is averaging around 40mpg, then at ^.45 a gallon for that wiesel fuel, then 2000 miles would cost £322.50, saving a massive £148.50.

What's more, I don't think that 0-60mph figure of around 9.3seconds is perfectly adequate, it keeps up with all the other traffic and sometimes have to lift my foot off the gas when following some BEVs who are clearly attempting to drive economically to max their range. Also, as you get older, it is a fact that your reaction times also slow down, so being exceptionally fast off the line can be dangerous then.

I would say the pi55 poor adoption is as much to do with the constant misinformation poured into people’s social media and propagated by people such as your good self. The tide is slowly turning as people talk to their relatives, friends and neighbours that already have EVs in real life and see what the reality is.

As for the politicians, I don’t think they’re that thick but they are just playing for votes. If people protest and write to their MPs then they might act. If not, they won’t.

In terms of public rapid charging prices, I think the price is now set and includes 20% vat. The government will just ramp up petrol and diesel tax, the oil companies will charge more as they sell less and the price will go up until today’s apparently high EV public charging prices actually look reasonable.

It’s a giant sh£t sandwich Graham and we’re all going to have to take a bite.

Edited 31 October, 202531 Oct by classic

@Graham Butcher Got it, the Social Divide.

Business users vs Private users, & the underclass, non home charging users.

It is Politicians that seem to not be able to see that.

PS

Ongoing depreciation is not an issue to those buying Keepers, be that ICE or EV.

And Ongoing depreciation is what buyers on used or even pretty new vehicles want if buying a keeper and one they can run cheaply. eg, Home / Workplace discounted electric charging. Or good priced Public Charging.

Edited 31 October, 202531 Oct by Evolution13

Osprey Discount charging, Plunge pricing is quite something. Down to 72 pence if using the App.

Full price. Even more of a p!th take.

Just thought I'd chip in to this thread with a small observation.

I was in Greece last week and expected, with Thier use of solar for a lot of things, like hot water and power, to see quite a lot of EVs based on the fact that most properties already have a solar installation so could therefore use it to power and EV.

In fact in the week I was there I saw just two EVs.

There were quite a lot of mild hybrids but none were PHEVs.

It seems strange that they have so much opportunity to take advantage of but little inclination to do so, with the majority of vehicles seemingly low spec small runabouts from Japan and South Korea.

50 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh come on now, surely that is precisely the message that they are already and have been sending to the politicians by pi55 poor adoption of BEV,s over the last few years and still today, ICE cars are selling the most, followed by hybrids and PHEVs. Are the politicians so thick that they cannot see the evidence for themselves?

Now, my Kodiaq (nicking @lol-lol s phrase) wiesel 2L car which is averaging around 40mpg, then at ^.45 a gallon for that wiesel fuel, then 2000 miles would cost £322.50, saving a massive £148.50.

What's more, I don't think that 0-60mph figure of around 9.3seconds is perfectly adequate, it keeps up with all the other traffic and sometimes have to lift my foot off the gas when following some BEVs who are clearly attempting to drive economically to max their range. Also, as you get older, it is a fact that your reaction times also slow down, so being exceptionally fast off the line can be dangerous then.

Thought ICE was now less than 50% according to SMMT monthly figures.

Acceleration to 30 mph tends to be most important ie where lanes go 3 in to 2 or 2 in to one. Cannot count the times some wannabe ICE driver goes to the outer lane and I am in the Scenic or Zoe and they are left for dust as the instant torque means one if 5 or 10 metres up the road before the ICE car has even got to max torque in first gear. With my FWD EVs wheel spin can be the problem from the get go. Scenic is well managed in traction control if not over managed, Zoe less so and will be interesting to see how the Urban R5 handles full blown starts from the lights.

My favourite performance data site, French of course but uses data from numerous European publications.

Kodiaq 150 hp true 0 to 100 kph over 10 seconds.

Scenic EV60 also lost a few tenths and came in at just over 9s to 100 kph......

https://zeperfs.com/en/duel7347-12689.htm

Edited 31 October, 202531 Oct by lol-lol

@skomaz Not ever having been to Greece, I can't on this, but while you were there, did you observe what the average house was like? For instance would many people be able to actually home charge as that could be one factor I expect that could explain why you saw so few EVs.

It is well reported that the take up of EV,s in Greece is not great for various reasons. Economics being the main thing.

But really the relevance to the UK is lost as no longer in the EU. Different strokes for different folks.

Edited 31 October, 202531 Oct by Evolution13

Deleted by me as I had crossed two things over, sorry

Edited 31 October, 202531 Oct by Graham Butcher

9 minutes ago, skomaz said:

Just thought I'd chip in to this thread with a small observation.

I was in Greece last week and expected, with Thier use of solar for a lot of things, like hot water and power, to see quite a lot of EVs based on the fact that most properties already have a solar installation so could therefore use it to power and EV.

In fact in the week I was there I saw just two EVs.

There were quite a lot of mild hybrids but none were PHEVs.

It seems strange that they have so much opportunity to take advantage of but little inclination to do so, with the majority of vehicles seemingly low spec small runabouts from Japan and South Korea.

Same with Temerife. Relatively little EV as petrol is very cheap. Not so the case in Greece but their electricity, single rate tariff has been around 23 Euro cents in the first half of the year but has gone up by half since August....

They can get good Night tariffs for as little as 10 cents per kwh similar to what we get in the UK and one can imagine.

Athens is 38 degrees north latitude so not far outside the golden 35N to 35S great solar latitudes so individuals, businesses and governments can invest in solar and get a good return if prices of natural gas look expensive which they relatively are doing compared to solar. Not a great deal if wind generation possible there but solar would be good.

Greek City Times

Electricity Prices in Greece Surge 52% in Just Three Mont...

Electricity prices in Greece have surged by 52% in just three months, reaching €112.25 per MWh in October amid calm weather conditions and higher natural gas use. As costs rise, more households are...

.

@Graham Butcher What is the well documented problems that EV,s pose?

Documented by whom and where, and for which world regions or countries.

I know of some infrastructure issues for charging and cost, but what other problems rather than those that some talk of that have never had experience of EV,s.

Transportation & the risk of fire seems not to have reduced the number being shipped around the world.

The ones that have got the fire authorities highly concerned, and that is not just restricted to fires, but the problems in tackling any fire with the available equipment and the hazards presented both in any fire and toxic hazards that they produce afterwards.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yes, the private buyer can take advantage of the pre-registered cars with only delivery mileage on and save a packet

So long as the spec is suitable, my fiance and I are planning to tow a caravan so we will need an EV with a towbar - from my small amount of research so far they seem very rare as a pre-registered car?

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The ones that have got the fire authorities highly concerned, and that is not just restricted to fires, but the problems in tackling any fire with the available equipment and the hazards presented both in any fire and toxic hazards that they produce afterwards.

Different challenges, doesn’t mean they are insurmountable.

On cleaning up hazards, how many times have major roads been closed off due to fuel tanker leaks? We have this wonderful infrastructure that has already been built for mass EV adoption.

2 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

So long as the spec is suitable, my fiance and I are planning to tow a caravan so we will need an EV with a towbar - from my small amount of research so far they seem very rare as a pre-registered car?

With Tesla, official tow hitch can be fitted at any time, almost same price as when purchased during config.

Model Y Tow Package

7 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

With Tesla, official tow hitch can be fitted at any time, almost same price as when purchased during config.

Model Y Tow Package

But who wants to support Elon Musk? - not me nor many other people!!!

My son-in-law used to have a Tesla as a company car, when he first got it several years ago people commented how lovely it was but last month someone walking past said to him"shame about the car" in a negative way!

Elon Musk has done more to damage the reputation of Tesla than almost any other person, possible not including "the orange one"?

Edited 31 October, 202531 Oct by PetrolDave

14 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

So long as the spec is suitable, my fiance and I are planning to tow a caravan so we will need an EV with a towbar - from my small amount of research so far they seem very rare as a pre-registered car?

TBH I don't often see EVs towing that much.

Not too difficult to see why as it seems to carry a fairly hefty range penalty 50% being typical but obviously will depend on how heavy and aerodynamic the caravan/trailer is plus obviously speed, gradient and all the other variables etc.

And with most people towing a caravan normally travelling a reasonable distance then EVs are not really the most suitable choice for most yet.

If range etc isn't an issue then there are a number of options out there that can have them retrofitted if they don't already have them.

Also bear in mind that you may need to plan your charging stops a bit more carefully than with an ICE as most charging stations are not yet designed for cars towing and you may need to unhitch the trailer before charging.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Different challenges, doesn’t mean they are insurmountable.

On cleaning up hazards, how many times have major roads been closed off due to fuel tanker leaks? We have this wonderful infrastructure that has already been built for mass EV adoption.

I never said that they were insurmountable, but currently there is NOT a viable solution if the battery does go into thermal runaway, all they do now is allow it to burn itself out, then tackle the remaining fire. Meanwhile, releasing the following gases, some of which are fatal if inhaled or come into contact with skin.

The source for evidence is here Review of gas emissions from lithium-ion battery thermal runaway failure — Considering toxic and flammable compounds - ScienceDirect

Oh and also for the record this report also states that LFP is even more toxic in the event of a thermal runaway then NMC batteries, this is an extract from the Conclusion in the linked to documentation "While NMC batteries release more gas than LFP, LFP batteries are significantly more toxic than NMC ones in absolute terms."

Table 2. Common LIB off-gas components, hazards and exposure limits.

Substance	Hazarda	Exposure Limit, 8 h (mg/m3 )b	Exposure Limit, 15 min (mg/m3 )b
Carbon dioxide,	Cause headaches, dizziness, confusion, loss of consciousness, and asphyxiation at high concentrations [52].	9150	27 400
Carbon monoxide, CO	Toxic if inhaled, may damage the unborn child, causes damage to organs through prolonged or repeated exposure and is an extremely flammable gas.	23	117
Hydrogen, H	Extremely flammable.	See noted
Hydrocarbons	Flammable.	See noted
Hydrogen fluoride, HF	Fatal if swallowed, is fatal in contact with skin, is fatal if inhaled and causes severe skin burns and eye damage.	1.5	2.5
Hydrogen chloride, HCl	Severe skin burns and eye damage, is toxic if inhaled, may damage fertility or the unborn child, causes serious eye damage, may cause damage to organs through prolonged or repeated exposure, may be corrosive to metals, may cause respiratory irritation and contains gas under pressure and may explode if heated.	2	8
Hydrogen cyanide, HCN	Fatal if swallowed, is fatal in contact with skin, is fatal if inhaled, causes damage to organs through prolonged or repeated exposure, is very toxic to aquatic life (with long lasting effects) and is an extremely flammable liquid and vapour.	1	5
Nitrogen dioxide, NO	Fatal if inhaled, causes severe skin burns and eye damage; and may cause or intensify fire (oxidiser).	0.96	1.91
Sulphur dioxide, SO	Severe skin burns and eye damage and is toxic if inhaled.	1.3	2.7
Solvents	Highly flammable liquid and vapour [53]. Very irritating to eyes, skin and airways [44].	DEC 700, PC 8.5c	DEC 1000, PC 8.5c

a

Cited from the European Chemicals Agency [53], unless otherwise stated.

b

Cited from the HSE [47], unless otherwise stated.

c

Cited from the IFA [54] for the solvents DEC (Romania) and PC (Germany), other common electrolyte solvents (e.g. EC and DMC) are not listed.

d

Hydrocarbons, such as CH, are described as acting as simple asphyxiants without other significant physiologic effects when they are present in high concentrations, hence are not given limit values as the significant factor is the availability of oxygen [55]. This is assumed for H as well.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

I never said that they were insurmountable, but currently there is NOT a viable solution if the battery does go into thermal runaway, all they do now is allow it to burn itself out, then tackle the remaining fire.

Well then, best write to your fire department to voice your concerns and encourage them to work on solutions.

Holistically, from birth to grave, EV are better for the planet compared to ICE vehicles. Proof of this had been posted many times years ago, it would be even better for EV now as the grid is cleaner now.

4 hours ago, skomaz said:

It seems strange that they have so much opportunity to take advantage of but little inclination to do so, with the majority of vehicles seemingly low spec small runabouts from Japan and South Korea

I think last part answers the why so little EV question. There just isn’t many cheap runabouts yet.

I saw an Citreon C1 the other day and I was saying to my wife, that looks perfect replacement for her Leaf. But alas, no EV version.

Come to think of it, the perception that EV are expensive is perpetuated by other manufacturer not willing to bring out cars like Dacia Springs to replace their local ICE runabouts.

It will take me 2 nights to charge back up if i am using the 3 pin lead and getting 7 hours offpeak.

I will charge some at the Standard tariff unless i am going far and i will stick it on the Instavolt during the cheap rate time.

I was getting 3.3 - 3.7 miles a kWh on the 60 mph roads going then about 15 miles of motorway roadworks & crawling traffic then headed back the last 30 miles ASAP.

Tried a GridServe charger @ Kinross Services, no App just a credit card, (3 card) in the p!thing rain and got no charging. Thankfully as it was 85 pence a kWh and by the time i had messed about for 5 minutes the person i was meeting arrived and i was off again.

Edited 31 October, 202531 Oct by Evolution13