the truth about electric cars

[wyx087]

2 hours ago, promomast said:

all in all add the cost of those batteries after 5 yes max and the chemical footprint of the lithium iron

Interesting comment, what makes you say that?

[Lady Elanore]

3 hours ago, toot said:

@promomast

I have no heath issues, thanks,

never been healthier since i was fat and 40 and eventually was diagnosed as type 2 diabetic after a year of high blood pressure and being asked, 'are you diabetic?' and saying no.

Eventually i was asked 'have you ever been tested?' 

 

As to EV fires, car parks and car weight. EV,s vs SUV,s etc.   44 pages of that just in this thread.

 

Different cars, different needs.

Run a BMW with staggard tyres, run flats and see the price range of those.

 

This is just a choice of Tesla Tyres in this size.

 

I run staggered tyres, although not run-flat, but even the 275s on the front cost a small fortune to replace. 😞 It was always thus 

[Lady Elanore]

2 hours ago, toot said:

 

 

..............

What is the weight of lets say 5 Imperial Gallons of petrol, and how more efficient is the vehicle with that weight reduction?

The Engineers here will know that, or very quickly be able to check. 

 

 

i think a gallon petrol (imperial) wieghs 7.3 pounds, or 3.3kg

[Ootohere]

I was hoping for a speedy response from an Engineer that would have had it in their head after posting on here.

 

Near what google says with 7.6 lb for an imperial gallon of gasoline.

Diesel is different again.

 

If anyone wants to run with maybe 1 litre low on the engine oil that will be a 856 gram saving.

[Lady Elanore]

Funnily enough, there are a few slightly differing weights for Petrol on the internet? I'm not including the ridiculous US gallon of course  

[promomast]

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Interesting comment, what makes you say that?

the tesla guarantee ? am i wrong i felt sure my neighbour said 5 years  ... i thought 3 would be nearer ... can anyone confirm 

 

im texting nick (neighbour) now to get info from the horses mouth   

[Ootohere]

@promomastWhich Tesla does he have? 

[Graham Butcher]

3 hours ago, toot said:

I was hoping for a speedy response from an Engineer that would have had it in their head after posting on here.

 

Near what google says with 7.6 lb for an imperial gallon of gasoline.

Diesel is different again.

 

If anyone wants to run with maybe 1 litre low on the engine oil that will be a 856 gram saving.

I just back in and saw this post, thats odd I could have sworn it weigh more, a imperial gallon of water is 10lb.

[Ootohere]

Different densities. 

Some daft VW Techs doing oil consumption tests actually did the tests with a litre of oil as 1,000 grams.

Messed up the calculations.

 

eg, Top invoice.

The member got their new engine. 

 

 

Edited 5 September, 2023 by toot

[promomast]

14 minutes ago, toot said:

@promomastWhich Tesla does he have? 

 

ill ask ...i think its an original 2019 maybe ? 

[J.R.]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

I just back in and saw this post, thats odd I could have sworn it weigh more, a imperial gallon of water is 10lb.

Oil floats on water, I wont give you a lecture on Archimedes in the hope that you will lay off with the Ohms law ones 😀

[Graham Butcher]

16 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Oil floats on water, I wont give you a lecture on Archimedes in the hope that you will lay off with the Ohms law ones 😀

Very funny I must say. I knew oil floats on water, who doesn't know that, eh? As a part-time fireman, that is one of the first things they teach. Use water on an oil fire is just asking for major trouble, 

 

DANGER! Throwing Water On Oil Fire | Earth Lab - Bing video

[wyx087]

14 hours ago, promomast said:

the tesla guarantee ? am i wrong i felt sure my neighbour said 5 years  ... i thought 3 would be nearer ... can anyone confirm 

 

im texting nick (neighbour) now to get info from the horses mouth   

So you, or your neighbour, thinks car battery need to be replaced at end of warranty period? 

 

Do you replace a Skoda vehicle's fuel tank or engine at end of 3 year warranty? 

[promomast]

absolutely ..  point taken 👍

[Graham Butcher]

12 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

So you, or your neighbour, thinks car battery need to be replaced at end of warranty period? 

 

Do you replace a Skoda vehicle's fuel tank or engine at end of 3 year warranty? 

Well if that was true, we would be hearing loads of people moaning about the sheer cost after such a short time by now as we have loads of EVs 5 years old now in the UK.

[wyx087]

29 minutes ago, promomast said:

absolutely ..  point taken 👍

For what it's worth. My Nissan Leaf is was first registered in December 2014.

It is now almost 9 years. Its battery health is at 79%, which means about to loose 11th health bar.

Battery warranty for this first generation Nissan Leaf battery ended after 5 years, warrant battery does not go below 9 bars, which is 66%.

 

According to my data trend, 3% per year, it will take another 4 years to reach battery warranty limits. Meaning 13 years old, or 8 years after the 5 years warranty runs out. Even then, it will still functional for all local use as the family local runabout.

 

This is the health figure I was tracking as the car aged:

 

 

 

Nissan Leaf warranty: https://www.nissan.co.uk/content/dam/Nissan/gb/vehicles/leaf/product_code/1_carryover/owner_benefits/EV Customer Promise T%26C's 05.02.18.pdf

Leaf battery health bars: https://mobility.lk/2020/10/11/soh-capacity-bars/

 

Leaf does not heave battery thermal management and battery management system is very basic. They are known to degrade faster than other vehicles.

Edited 6 September, 2023 by wyx087
added data trend calc

[Graham Butcher]

37 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

For what it's worth. My Nissan Leaf is was first registered in December 2014.

It is now almost 9 years. Its battery health is at 79%, which means about to loose 11th health bar.

Battery warranty for this first generation Nissan Leaf battery ended after 5 years, warrant battery does not go below 9 bars, which is 66%.

 

According to my data trend, 3% per year, it will take another 4 years to reach battery warranty limits. Meaning 13 years old, or 8 years after the 5 years warranty runs out. Even then, it will still functional for all local use as the family local runabout.

 

This is the health figure I was tracking as the car aged:

 

 

 

Nissan Leaf warranty: https://www.nissan.co.uk/content/dam/Nissan/gb/vehicles/leaf/product_code/1_carryover/owner_benefits/EV Customer Promise T%26C's 05.02.18.pdf

Leaf battery health bars: https://mobility.lk/2020/10/11/soh-capacity-bars/

 

Leaf does not heave battery thermal management and battery management system is very basic. They are known to degrade faster than other vehicles.

While these figures are good, however, if I had a ICE car which was the same age and could only do 79% of its range from when it was new, I would not be happy, I did have one that was 9.5 years and in fact that was doing miles per tank than when it was new, just saying, thats all.

Edited 6 September, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[Ootohere]

^^^ You keep saying, but it never will affect you are you are not going to drive an EV.

Many are not happy that VW Group sold TDI,s with defeat devices that caused them no issues and they got or still get good economy with.

 

Yet some let them do new engine management on them and ended up with issues, and some even claimed for money from VW Group regardless of having a good vehicle or a bad vehicle.

 

We live and learn.

 

Another year or 3 and we will see how the VW,s with SCR are doing in the UK, and also the DQ381 DSG,s with an 80,000 mile oil service regime.

We will see how much demand there are on 9 or 10 year old ones.

Edited 6 September, 2023 by toot

[promomast]

so this info arrived today  ... 

 

they are saying that only 10% of cars that dont meet the 2015 conformity barrier are on the roads today ? 

 

so only 10% are polluting the roads right up to the m25 boundary ... I'm so happy that pollution knows its place and doesn't wander off 

 

so only 10% of the cars are to pay £12.50 a day ?

 

[skomaz]

Looks like I won't be taking my MX5 to London then...   But TBH I hate London having spent a lot of time there so it's no great shakes...

[wyx087]

Obviously it depends on personal use-case. As I said, oldest EV's still work very well as family local runabout.

 

Even the humble first-gen Leaf can fit with "most" people's commute requirement at 9+ years old, most according to this data:

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/traveltoworkenglandandwales/census2021

 

Newer EV's will loose less battery capacity as it ages thanks to better thermal management and/or battery management system. So at worst, 300 miles range EV becomes 250 miles after 10+ years.  Only really noticeable when doing 1000 miles trip, need one additional charging stop.

 

 

A petrol/diesel car's range changes just as much when limited by traffic. My previous diesel Octy would get over 500 miles in ideal conditions, as per rated, but around 400 miles when stuck in slow moving traffic. Whereas EV's stuck in slow moving traffic would actually consume less and exceed its typical range.

 

Case in point, I drive 40 miles yesterday, errands in the morning and fully loaded car in/out central London in evening, parked directly in front of the theatre for Lion King, to watch Lion King. Got home with 42%. Pro rata out to be 69 miles range, over 10% higher than what I typical expect out of the car.

(congestion charge and ULEZ exempt, £1.37 parking paid 10min at Westminster valid for 4 hours thanks to their EV incentive. £0.70 recharge cost, back to 100% for a new day, in a car worth just £3000-5000)

 

 

  

52 minutes ago, promomast said:

they are saying that only 10% of cars that dont meet the 2015 conformity barrier are on the roads today ?

Remember it's 2015 or newer for diesels, 2005 or newer for petrol. That's 18 years old petrol, vast majority of petrol is compliant.

Edited 6 September, 2023 by wyx087
added Westminster link

[promomast]

i just hate having to travel in london suburbs everywhere in a queue at 20 mph ... whilst powered cyclist have no speed limits and overtake when least expected ... even twickenham is 20 mph ... my work takes me into london sometimes ... i try to travel by train but maintaining london does require a fair amount of tools and equipment be carried somehow 

 

I certainly wont live their ever again 

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, toot said:

^^^ You keep saying, but it never will affect you are you are not going to drive an EV.

Many are not happy that VW Group sold TDI,s with defeat devices that caused them no issues and they got or still get good economy with.

 

Yet some let them do new engine management on them and ended up with issues, and some even claimed for money from VW Group regardless of having a good vehicle or a bad vehicle.

 

We live and learn.

 

Another year or 3 and we will see how the VW,s with SCR are doing in the UK, and also the DQ381 DSG,s with an 80,000 mile oil service regime.

We will see how much demand there are on 9 or 10 year old ones.

Well... if I were to perhaps win an EV in a competition for example, I might just keep it, but buying one, hell no, I just brought a £11k car. 

 

I'm happy with VW's cheating (not that I was aware of when it happened) but I just like the way diesels drive and because I used to have to cover some long drives in a day like Newcastle on Tyne and back to Chelmsford. These days not so often, but often enough to know that currently an EV is NOT a suitable option for me, thats all.

Edited 6 September, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[promomast]

yup graham with you on those thoughts 

 

i like the grunt of a diesel and can just live with the mpg ... i do about 30k a year ...but can't afford an Ev for sure 

 

i have a motorbike too big to enjoy riding in central london but i go out to europe and beyond twice a year at least ... visits friends ... last trip a netherlands friend wanted to celebrate retiring so we ride to the swiss alps for a couple of weeks of hair pins 

 

my 1700cc twin 2003 just missed out on the ulez nox figure required ...so i got a yami conformity certificate to prove it was 0.01 inside the required values ... notified with photo of same on tfl website and a few days later i'm not on the charge list anymore

 

sometimes wonder if cars can also find they are within bounds by getting a conformity certificate ...only one need be bought to start with, if it proves a particular model is good to go ... then yup tfl will want every vehicle to buy one to prove exemption (great for recycling paper ) but the savings soon add up 

 

my yamaha cert cost £70  

[wyx087]

48 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I used to have to cover some long drives in a day like Newcastle on Tyne and back to Chelmsford

I agree it's long distance in terms of driving time, Google maps say over 5 hours. But that's only ~300 miles. Even if you buy a 10 years old Model 3/Y, based on my Leaf degradation trend, it would still only require a single rapid charge session. 

 

I'm not knocking anyone's reasoning for their choice of car. I'm just laying out counter points to the idea that battery degradation affects usability, or that EV range isn't enough for occasional long drives.