the truth about electric cars

[Ootohere]

England / Westminster keeps blocking things though as they are not sure that Scotland will not benefit and England not.

 

The Wind Farm that is not going ahead with planning or SSE bidding for it for another year could have produced electricity for 4 million homes.

Double what there are in Scotland.

There is already 113% of Scotland's needs being produced.

 

Deeside against Huge Pylons were out doing a convoy in tractors as a protest.

 

The South can not expecting Scotland to house the Nuclear Deterrent that England will not have in their waters, and have the onshore wind they did not want, and have the pylons that might spoil views. 

 

Even those not for Independence know when the pith is been taken. 

[@Lee]

The International Energy Agency has just published its latest report on the EV market and industry. "Electric car sales in 2023 were 3.5 million higher than in 2022, a 35% year-on-year increase. This is more than six times higher than in 2018, just 5 years earlier. ...Electric cars accounted for around 18% of all cars sold in 2023, up from 14% in 2022 and only 2% 5 years earlier, in 2018." 

 

There are some warning signs, though; in some markets the vast majority of EVs have been sold to people who can charge at home. I'd guess that at some point that market will be saturated. Also there is a trend towards larger and more expensive EVs. 

 

https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2024?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3oB9oQZ-bxTbvfNN6nkfWXT3cfA-T2q1i8dNaoqh4VFOvMU8XHXiPgqqo_aem_AWIYg0j0l_YbBjbZBrOzIvAkxh0foZejHEo4wBRaF4ykTE3fOnpquvLcLGp-70AcA-h4UdkHFd41UQqFxnbgvO17

 

[Stonekeeper]

New EU car sales rose 10.1% in February 2024, with the battery-electric market share remaining stable at 12%. Petrol models retained their lead as the most popular choice for buyers, followed by hybrid-electric. Diesel sales dropped in most major markets, except Germany.

 

https://www.acea.auto/pc-registrations/new-car-registrations-10-1-in-february-2024-battery-electric-12-market-share/

[lol-lol]

3 minutes ago, @Lee said:

The International Energy Agency has just published its latest report on the EV market and industry. "Electric car sales in 2023 were 3.5 million higher than in 2022, a 35% year-on-year increase. This is more than six times higher than in 2018, just 5 years earlier. ...Electric cars accounted for around 18% of all cars sold in 2023, up from 14% in 2022 and only 2% 5 years earlier, in 2018." 

 

There are some warning signs, though; in some markets the vast majority of EVs have been sold to people who can charge at home. I'd guess that at some point that market will be saturated. Also there is a trend towards larger and more expensive EVs. 

 

https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2024?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3oB9oQZ-bxTbvfNN6nkfWXT3cfA-T2q1i8dNaoqh4VFOvMU8XHXiPgqqo_aem_AWIYg0j0l_YbBjbZBrOzIvAkxh0foZejHEo4wBRaF4ykTE3fOnpquvLcLGp-70AcA-h4UdkHFd41UQqFxnbgvO17

 

 

I think there are some temporary blips and inflections in EV sales due to withdrawals of subsidies but just down the road, later this year, there are crops of EVs that will be similar RRP and aligned with cheaper running costs they should bump the EV numbers up. EV owners like me are also looking to chop and change and there could be some mega deals as manufacturers do everything ie sell new ones at cost or loss to make their 22% EV target and avoid the 15k per vehicle hit if short. They may do heaps of pre registering of course too.

 

[Stonekeeper]

Demand for new electric cars is continuing to flatline in the UK as drivers remain reluctant to make the switch, latest industry figures show.

Although electric vehicle registrations grew by 3.8 per cent in March, they made up a smaller percentage of all car sales compared to the same month a year ago.

Market share for EVs slipped from 16.2 per cent in March 2023 to 15.2 per cent last month, as private buyers shunned the switch to pure battery-powered cars and instead turned to hybrid and plug-in hybrid models.

The automotive trade body said 'a sluggish private market and shrinking EV market share' was a sign of the 'challenge ahead' for the industry, especially with manufacturers facing hefty fines if they fail to meet binding electric car sales targets from this year. 

 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-13271207/Electric-car-sales-falter-drivers-turn-hybrids.html

[Stonekeeper]

UK sales for March

 

[Ootohere]

Heid yins of various manufacturers importers wanting grants again for plug in's. 

The Government not going to cut the VAT on Public Charging.

Even wealthy people with an understanding of money on the likes of Wake Up to Money on Radio 4 have lost half the value of a new Sporty BEV.

There are now Porsche Taycans available for £40,000 grand. 

 

 

Senior citizens having to check if they have tax to pay or a bill coming because of a little increase in income.

 

The Government could not give a monkeys, they are jumping ship anyway from front line politics and have nice new jobs lined up. 

 

The Manufacturers & Dealerships need to be using area of land they have to get more chargers in and get the Zero Emissions cars at the prices to sell or lease because if not they will be missing the percentage of first registrations and paying huge penalties.

 

The kidology of Partners that had BEV,s built and selling to get the Fleet Average Emissions has not helped them now.

There are still shortages of some of the electric cars people actually do want to drive.

Edited 24 April by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

I think everybody is sidestepping the real issue/point here, which is that these sales are largely made up of company purchases because of the incentives that they get make for better fiscal sense, there seems to be a low uptake of BEVs by private buyers and this can be seen by the dealers struggling to sell the 2 to 3 year old cars at the end of their companies tenure on them.

[Ootohere]

Motability are certainly trying to make them look good with the low advance payments, that comes from the low cost to them from the manufacturers and the chargers installed where they can if they can.

 

Anyway, what does it matter to anyone that does not want a BEV? Unless they might want one really and are looking forward to 'Much Cheapness'.

 

They are going to have to punt them somehow, first register them, lease / rent them cheaply.  

[Graham Butcher]

For all we know, when ICE cars were first launched, they might well have had similar issues with people being reluctant to give up on what ever form of transport they had been using for decades before? 

[Ootohere]

There are a higher percentage of people getting an EV on the Orkneys per population than elsewhere, and in Scotland compared to regions in the RofUK.

 

There are authorities and organisations getting ready to buy or lease maybe their 2nd or 3rd fleet of vehicles.

Lots of used are going into the trade again this year from ones that were rented out cheaply / loaned during the Covid years. 

 

Those that own cars might actually hold onto them if they really can not get a good sale price or trade in and the car is suiting their needs. 

 

Time will tell how it really goes and as for spin from the SMMT or whoever that is how they operate.

 

Loads and loads of Ev,s oop north, that is in northern bit of the UK, not the north of England which is not far north in the scheme of things. & that includes very new registered ones & not just demonstrators. 

Edited 24 April by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

34 minutes ago, Rooted said:

There are a higher percentage of people getting an EV on the Orkneys per population than elsewhere, and in Scotland compared to regions in the RofUK.

I'm not surprised at the Orkneys given the small size of the islands, the distances really lend themselves to BEV's and the abundance of renewable power generation available.

[Ootohere]

@Graham Butcher  They actually have Ferry Services and get off the islands and might even travel to your 20 and further.

The vehicles actually get there on a boat. 

 

Do you know that many people all around the UK only drive locally much of the time and maybe take occasional longer trips and do not always need long range big vehicles for day to day use.   Then there is the servicing and maintenance for those where there are no MAIN DEALERS around, or even a choice of garages or mechanics.

Like on islands and rural areas.   Not everyone is within a spitting distance of these.

[lol-lol]

12 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I think everybody is sidestepping the real issue/point here, which is that these sales are largely made up of company purchases because of the incentives that they get make for better fiscal sense, there seems to be a low uptake of BEVs by private buyers and this can be seen by the dealers struggling to sell the 2 to 3 year old cars at the end of their companies tenure on them.

 

Popped in to the local Renault/Dacia dealership to get some coolant fluid for the Arkana, bloody ICE cars and their needs for liquids and fluid filters, and activity is low and they are waiting for the plorethoria of EVs that Dacia/Renault are launching in the UK later this year, relatively cheap and with all the experience the have gained being the early adopter like their sister company Nissan. 

 

The car market, including the three quarters that is supposed to be ICE/hybrid is quite as it is a tough market to sell in with the UK economy still in the Doldrums after the LT mini-budget but I think they are selling quite a few pure ICE Clios which they have re-introduced to sell along the excellent Clio etech full hybrid, you can even give get extra discount if you trade in an old Fiesta now that Ford has abandoned that sector.

 

As I have mentioned before being a country that drives on the left, ie need RHD cars means we are getting the latest cars a few months after the LHR versions are made sadly.

Anybody sensible, which hopefully includes me, will know UK EV buyers will see some mega EV deals as UK cars sellers subsidies the sales of EVs from there sales of ICE cars to avoid the £15K per cars hit they are the wrong side of the compulsory 22% EV share of sales. Already happens a bit with the 94 grams/km penalty level on CO2 emissions.

 

they can take my Zoe back so there will be another EV to buy on the second hand market, these prices seem to have recovered somewhat since the glut of ex-rental ones went back on to the market.  EV sales are bound to crest and dip when matters like subsidies and penalties appear on the market.  If I do not go for the TESLA model 3 SR then a Megane-e is a very nice car though I wish there was the 85 kwh battery option like in the sister car Nissan Ariya gets, maybe there will be as the battery packs get cheaper and cheaper, maybe an even cheaper LFP battery pack version as well !!        

 

[Graham Butcher]

@RootedI expect that many Islanders seldom leave the island. Whereas down this area some people travel daily from Kent over 100 miles to work and back where my son works, Orkney is only 25 miles coast to coast. 

 

 

[Ootohere]

@Graham Butcher Many people are commuters and Sales Reps / Commercial travellers and using EV,s, but that is a known known.

 

Many people have many miles to get anyplace all around the UK.

 

You might well be right about people from Orkney, but then you are not always right.

So they might not leave taking their car, they might fly or go by ferry and then hire / borrow cars.  Maybe BEV,s since many are used to them.

 

Point being.  Lots of people in the UK are only going driving in a 25 mile area.   Local people using local shops and doing local miles. 

Go to public chargers and you might not need to guess.  Maybe go to Orkney, Sheltland or other Island Communities. 

Local renewables and chargers & people that know the cost of things and the value.

Edited 25 April by Rooted

[J.R.]

On 22/04/2024 at 11:38, lol-lol said:

 

Actually it's down to compression ratios and max temperature and ambient, in Kelvin of course rather than C or F.  Assuming perfect or semi perfect gas, not too much water vapour if I remember my BSc Thermodynamics of long ago.

 

 

Waffle waffle waffle............................., does the "actually" signify that somewhere in the waffle you are correcting something I have said that is incorrect?

 

I'm surprised you didn't mention how much you earn and pay into your pension.

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

@RootedI expect that many Islanders seldom leave the island. Whereas down this area some people travel daily from Kent over 100 miles to work and back where my son works, Orkney is only 25 miles coast to coast. 

UK is only 1100 odd miles furthest top to bottom. 5-6 ~30min stops is more than reasonable for 16 hour drive. 

 

Let's be honest, UK is a small island with roads that are getting clogged up by the day. I can imagine the same view of UK from mainland Europe/China/India/America/Australia. Why wouldn't population on this modest sized island drive EV's? 

[lol-lol]

49 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Waffle waffle waffle............................., does the "actually" signify that somewhere in the waffle you are correcting something I have said that is incorrect?

 

I'm surprised you didn't mention how much you earn and pay into your pension.

 

Go do a degree in thermodynamics and you may then know what I  am talking about.

 

This month £8k into pension FYI.

Edited 25 April by lol-lol

[J.R.]

I do know what you are talking about, and it had no relevance to my posting, I will ask you the question one more time in case you missed it:

 

55 minutes ago, J.R. said:

does the "actually" signify that somewhere in the waffle you are correcting something I have said that is incorrect?

 

FYI This month zero income, the same as every month since Covid.

Edited 25 April by J.R.

[Winston_Woof]

45 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

UK is only 1100 odd miles furthest top to bottom. 5-6 ~30min stops is more than reasonable for 16 hour drive. 

 

Let's be honest, UK is a small island with roads that are getting clogged up by the day. I can imagine the same view of UK from mainland Europe/China/India/America/Australia. Why wouldn't population on this modest sized island drive EV's? 

because you can't top them up in 2-3 minutes (which if everyone was in EVs with the current infrastructure would likely mean long waits to do a 30 minute recharge)  and as people keep pointing out unless you can charge cheaply at home or a destination charger then "public" charging points make effectively make the journey more expensive than  burning petrol or diesel

[lol-lol]

5 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I do know what you are talking about, and it had no relevance to my posting, I will ask you the question one more time in case you missed it:

FYI This month zero income, the same as every month since Covid.

 

It is this bit particularly "that is why diesels were always massively more economical than petrol engines on short urban journeys especially winter ones,"

 

Wrong on so many levels.

 

Diesels are awful on short journeys, take far too long to warm up, power units are heavy for their specific outputs, better suited to  long steady journeys on motorways etc, or barges, or ships, though my French employer CMA is quickly moving over to LNG powered ship for cleaner emissions.

 

if you can get a petrol engine to at high compression ratio, now well over 10 and as high as 12 in some cases, along with the petrol engine lighter weight and less inertia of reciprocating and rotating components, always liked Vankel engined machine and enjoyed my time with Piper and Norton working on their engines.  Have heard that one firm has just scored a diesel up to 53% thermal efficiency, well done, be the next century to get to electric motors circa 90% though.  My 1.4D Skoda Fabia was a right old cobble together, yes could do 80 mpg but what a palava and of course slower to warm up than a petrol or EV with a heat pump.

 

I like hybrids with small efficient engines, petrol of course so the NOX is not  bad ie less than 10 ugm per km, not 60 or 80 as many of them are on paper but in reality much worse.

Clio e-tech 1.6l, non turbo, amazingly low NOX.  Petrols have been getting closer and closer to diesel, especially in full hybrid mode making diesels really only suitable, for the next few years for 40/44T haulage but even that will go in a few years for full EV or hydrogen powered IMO. 

 

[PetrolDave]

4 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

unless you can charge cheaply at home or a destination charger then "public" charging points make effectively make the journey more expensive than  burning petrol or diesel

... which, apart from purchase price, is one of the main factors why in March 2024 BEV sales made up a smaller percentage of overall car sales.

 

I know it doesn't seem to affect some (many?) on here but for a significant number of the UK population there is a cost of living problem (call it a crisis if you must) and unless and until BEV prices to buy/lease AND RUN drop considerably the chance of the car makers meeting the market percentage targets is getting smaller all the time.

[lol-lol]

6 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

because you can't top them up in 2-3 minutes (which if everyone was in EVs with the current infrastructure would likely mean long waits to do a 30 minute recharge)  and as people keep pointing out unless you can charge cheaply at home or a destination charger then "public" charging points make effectively make the journey more expensive than  burning petrol or diesel

 

Never charged for more than 15 minutes and that is with an EV that can only charge at less than 50 kWs.

Next car will charge at 100, 150 ,200, 250, 350 kW, up to the 60% mark which will be enough to get a hundred miles or more.

Not sure where people get the half hour charging from, most people I see at public chargers are been and gone in ten minutes, 15 sometime and rarely more than 20 minutes, no point, get back on the road and drive for another hour or two and get home to that lovely sub 10p per kWh lecky, to a cheap fast (ie 7-22 kw), not rapid charger which there are tens of thousands.   

 

[Winston_Woof]

3 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

... which, apart from purchase price, is one of the main factors why in March 2024 BEV sales made up a smaller percentage of overall car sales.

 

I know it doesn't seem to affect some (many?) on here but for a significant number of the UK population there is a cost of living problem (call it a crisis if you must) and unless and until BEV prices to buy/lease AND RUN drop considerably the chance of the car makers meeting the market percentage targets is getting smaller all the time.

there's no problem if they don't meet their targets as the Government can fine them  which of course wont have any knock on impacts.................