the truth about electric cars

[wyx087]

On 22/03/2024 at 23:17, J.R. said:

What is this plug holster that you are talking about?

Something like this: https://www.voltaev.co.uk/products/bg-syncev-cable-holster-type-2

You put the plug in there to store it. Put the holster very close to vehicle charge ports. That way you never need to re-arrange the cable, just park up and plug in, 1-2 second job, makes life much easier.

 

On 22/03/2024 at 23:17, J.R. said:

What exactly are they communicating? Why the need to communicate anything when you are charging your vehicle at home? - I am probably missing something obvious here.

Hopefully this explains UK smart charge point regulations, what is communicated in smart functions: https://pod-point.com/guides/smart-charge-point-regulations

 

On 22/03/2024 at 23:17, J.R. said:

What is special about a charge point aside from carrying more current than a domestic socket and some sort of protection to prevent charging if there is not earth continuity?

 

Can you not just install a Type 2 socket on a dedicated circuit conforming to the regulations?

 

OK I appreciate that in the UK you have to be a qualified electrician which I am (or at least was) but here in France it is not a requirement.

The communication between car and charge point requires some simple comms (resistive value and PWM signals). You can't just install a Type 2 socket directly to the mains, the required signals wouldn't be present.

 

If you are installing yourself, best to get the cable plumbed in and get EV charge point professionally installed later on. Price should be cheaper and you get more feature-rich smarter charge point, may be even V2H capable. The cable need to contain ethernet such as using EVUltra cable or standard 3 core with added ethernet alongside it.

 

On 23/03/2024 at 09:17, Graham Butcher said:

Question, what would happen in the case of the internet / comms failing, does the charger then shut down or drop down into a trickle charge state to prevent battery damage? 

Behaviour when internet fails depends heavily on the charge point. But it should not prevent people from charging. .

My old podpoint would revert to completely dumb charge point. Plug in and it dispenses.

My new Indra would stick to previously set schedule, that is downloaded and saved locally. There is also an override button on the unit to start charging immediately.

 

 

 

 

[Winston_Woof]

Just now, wyx087 said:

Something like this: https://www.voltaev.co.uk/products/bg-syncev-cable-holster-type-2

You put the plug in there to store it. Put the holster very close to vehicle charge ports. That way you never need to re-arrange the cable, just park up and plug in, 1-2 second job, makes life much easier.

 

 

 

 

 

Unless you have an Untethered style base unit and you keep the cable in the boot|garage|house

[wyx087]

5 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

Unless you have an Untethered style base unit and you keep the cable in the boot|garage|house

I do have untethered charge point for maximum compatibility (Leaf type 1 and MY type 2). But I keep the Type 2 cable always connected as "home" cable, plugging in takes <2s. In the car there's another cable for charging when away.

 

People buy tethered for ease of use, but I feel "home" cable achieves exact same thing. With added benefit that changing cable is a doddle, for more suitable length due to change of car or when cable get damaged. Untethered also has wider compatibility for older cars.

[J.R.]

3 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Essentially if you run 3L+B+E with comms and an additional cat6 cable, no currently possible proposal would require you to dig it up and add to or replace it.

 

No digging required, surface run inside ground floor garage from incoming main fuseboard, short cable run, my property, my charging point nobody even the government gets to say what has to be done.

 

3 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

CT - At lease one is required by many chargers so they can monitor the pull from the grid. Many won’t charge without this as it’s a safety feature.

 

I presume then CT is a current measuring inductive clamp, I'm confused about the term charger, Root says the charger is in the vehicle, all I am looking to do is install an outside connecting point for faster charging than the granny cable. I concern myself with keeping within the current limit of my abonnement, upstream of the meter is Enedis's domain, they cannot (currently) deny me full use of the power limit I pay for (6kva, 9kva or 12kva), the difference to the UK is that I have to pay extra for higher supply currents, they want to do it hence my concern about the comms side of things and wanting to avoid them.

 

3 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Ethernet cable… it’s cheap and many chargers take software updates or you can set/monitor them to only charge In discount periods. WiFi is often unreliable in remote locations, so why chance it.

 

My question is/was why would I want or need communications, it sounds like it is forced on you by having to have installed the smart chargers they insist on, but again I ask the question, is it actually a charger or just a connection to the vehicles charging circuit? One which denys or limits your charging at the whim of the National grid?

 

The vehicle charger clearly works on a Granny cable without any comms, does the vehicle charger need comms to work on faster charge rates? I am beginning to think it is the outside charging connection points that are referred to as chargers that would use these comms and petulantly will not function without them.

 

Thanks for your responses so far 👍

[Graham Butcher]

There is however a trade-off to be taken into consideration, and that is that every time you introduce a plug-in connection, it creates another potential point of possible failure or problematic connection due to poor contacts.

[Stonekeeper]

7 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

My question is/was why would I want or need communications, it sounds like it is forced on you by having to have installed the smart chargers they insist on, but again I ask the question, is it actually a charger or just a connection to the vehicles charging circuit? One which denys or limits your charging at the whim of the National grid?

 

 

 

Thanks for your responses so far 👍

 

 

I think the smart meter and comms regulations are so the energy companies will be able to throttle the supply to your house in the event of high network demand.

 

You will plug your car in at night inputting when you need to use it next, any charge already in it can then be used by the network to charge other cars connected and recharged up for when you want, the energy companies will be hoping people plug in every night regardless of use to have a full battery everyday.

 

 

It's the future😉

[J.R.]

37 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

The communication between car and charge point requires some simple comms (resistive value and PWM signals). You can't just install a Type 2 socket directly to the mains, the required signals wouldn't be present.

 

For the vehicle or for the National Grid?

 

Having read your link I now understand the comms side of things to spread the load on the National Grid and for off peak charging.

 

I dont think the vehicle charger needs to know anything other than it is being supplied with electricity, perhaps it needs to know the maximum mains current that can be drawn to adjust the charging rate accordingly, I am guessing there is something in the Type 2 plug it recognises.

 

41 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

If you are installing yourself, best to get the cable plumbed in and get EV charge point professionally installed later on. Price should be cheaper and you get more feature-rich smarter charge point, may be even V2H capable. The cable need to contain ethernet such as using EVUltra cable or standard 3 core with added ethernet alongside it.

 

No question of that happening, I dont even know if the UK style communicating charge points exist here, I am certainly not obliged to use one, feature rich is a turn off for me, I dont want any features, I want to plug in and let the vehicle charger do its stuff, I want to use a lead or charge point that is not going to overheat or melt the contacts, I'm still trying to get my head around why everyone is saying I need comms, there certainly is no benefit to me unless the vehicle charger will not function without them.

 

Thanks for the explanation of the holster, very neat and I will certainly do that, I might even rig up one of those automatic retractable reels used for airlines, garden hoses and extension leads, I have a couple spare.

 

Last question, what is tethered and untethered?

[J.R.]

1 minute ago, Stonekeeper said:

It's the future😉

 

Its your future in the UK, one you have no choice about but thankfully not my future 🤣

[wyx087]

6 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I presume then CT is a current measuring inductive clamp, I'm confused about the term charger, Root says the charger is in the vehicle, all I am looking to do is install an outside connecting point for faster charging than the granny cable. I concern myself with keeping within the current limit of my abonnement, upstream of the meter is Enedis's domain, they cannot (currently) deny me full use of the power limit I pay for (6kva, 9kva or 12kva), the difference to the UK is that I have to pay extra for higher supply currents, they want to do it hence my concern about the comms side of things and wanting to avoid them.

Smart charge points after ~2019 all able to cut down charging rate when it detects high load close to house fuse limit. This is done by changing pulse modulation in one of the signal to the car. The charger is in the car, the charger reads those safety signals to ensure it doesn't pull more than what cable and charge point can provide. The cable also has resistor inside it to tell charger its current rating.

 

8 minutes ago, J.R. said:

My question is/was why would I want or need communications, it sounds like it is forced on you by having to have installed the smart chargers they insist on, but again I ask the question, is it actually a charger or just a connection to the vehicles charging circuit? One which denys or limits your charging at the whim of the National grid?

 

The vehicle charger clearly works on a Granny cable without any comms, does the vehicle charger need comms to work on faster charge rates? I am beginning to think it is the outside charging connection points that are referred to as chargers that would use these comms and petulantly will not function without them.

You don't need comms, as I mentioned regarding if internet is lost, you can always unplug and disable internet features for a dumb charge point that always dispenses when you plug in.

 

But it's still wise to put in the ethernet cable from charge point location back to main fuse. It can be used for CT clamp, comms or any other signal that is needed in the future.

 

5 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

There is however a trade-off to be taken into consideration, and that is that every time you introduce a plug-in connection, it creates another potential point of possible failure or problematic connection due to poor contacts.

4222 times my Leaf had been plugged in on the slower Type 1 charge port. Over 3000 would have been done by us with the "home" cable. That cable was bought second hand for £50 and sold for £35.

 

The old podpoint had Type 1 and Type 2 cable swapped every other day for 1 year, no problem despite being 5 years old at the time.

 

Those EV connectors are incredibly robust.

 

 

 

(I'll be on holiday next week, won't be checking forums)

[Ootohere]

'It is a future' that will happen before England gets anymore Nuclear Power Plants online or the National Grid has the Pylons up to get the Electricity from the North to England. 

 

It is needed sooner rather than later.   

But as it is 'The few' will get cheap tariffs / Offpeak while those without All the Gear pay through the nose for their energy. 

Plug in and use energy or the pretence of using less and get paid to do it. 

 

The Truth of EV,s for some. 

[J.R.]

1 minute ago, wyx087 said:

You don't need comms, as I mentioned regarding if internet is lost, you can always unplug and disable internet features for a dumb charge point that always dispenses when you plug in.

 

But it's still wise to put in the ethernet cable from charge point location back to main fuse. It can be used for CT clamp, comms or any other signal that is needed in the future.

 

I am failing to communicate, its not about whether I have ethernet or wi-fi, its about do I need comms to be able to plug a type 2 (if thats the right wording) charging lead into an EV for it to charge?

 

Forget everything about the UK National Grid, it is not relevant, forget about off peak charging, I do not have that abonnement on this property, it is a rip off now compared to when I chose it for the Hôtel.

 

Forget about solar panels, they are not in the plan, forget about V2H, I simply want to plug in and lt the vehicle charge itself.

 

If I can plug in a type 2 (faster) charging cable into the (future) vehicle I will not give a flying four X about CT clamp, comms or any other signal that is needed in the future.

[wyx087]

2 minutes ago, J.R. said:

For the vehicle or for the National Grid?

Comms for charge point is as laid out in the podpoint explainer. This is optional.

Comms for vehicle is to ensure vehicle doesn't pull more than what can be provided. Charge point gives a PWM signal to tell charge point maximum charge current. The cable gives a resistive value to say how much it can safely handle.

Comms for vehicle are compulsory, this is why wall charge point and granny charger exist, you can't just wire up live and neutral to a type 2 plug. Charge point will tell the car a different story compared to granny charger, and only then the car will draw more power.

 

5 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I'm still trying to get my head around why everyone is saying I need comms, there certainly is no benefit to me unless the vehicle charger will not function without them.

If you don't want it, then just buy a dumb charge point or a smart one and don't connect to internet.

 

9 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Last question, what is tethered and untethered?

https://www.boxt.co.uk/ev-chargers/guides/tethered-vs-untethered-ev-chargers-whats-the-difference-which-is-best

[J.R.]

9 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

You don't need comms, as I mentioned regarding if internet is lost, you can always unplug and disable internet features for a dumb charge point that always dispenses when you plug in.

 

Maybe we are getting somewhere with the above, all I want is the latter for an uncomplicated life!

 

I'm sure all this nonsense is built in to the only charge points you are allowed to have in the UK and unless the vehicle has to have it I'm sure it is irrelevant to my situation.

[Stonekeeper]

will  the cheaper overnight tariffs be sustainable in the future?

 

At the moment they exist because of perceived "Low demand" 

 

will the energy companies still have low demand when millions of ev's are plugged in on 7kw chargers overnight?

 

I can see it all ending in tears and mis-selling law suits

 

 

 

[J.R.]

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006313659321.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.9.1e225WGJ5WGJJQ&algo_pvid=8e25cfb9-72d3-4f07-b4a6-8e154e3d9933&aem_p4p_detail=20240324080045494814540547600002556594&algo_exp_id=8e25cfb9-72d3-4f07-b4a6-8e154e3d9933-4&pdp_npi=4%40dis!EUR!221.92!84.33!!!1703.11!647.18!%40211b619a17112924450298521eb65d!12000037525619437!sea!FR!855615080!&curPageLogUid=GUCWbKGMv17s&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch|query_from%3A&search_p4p_id=20240324080045494814540547600002556594_1

 

A random example from an Ali-Express search but this charge point makes no mention of comms, it does not appear to need wi-fi or Ethernet, are you saying that if this was plugged into an EV it would not charge or default to the Granny charge current limit?

 

I am not considering fitting this one but just use it as an example.

Edited 24 March by J.R.

[J.R.]

It seems there are no end of 32 amp 7.4kw EV charge points available in France or cheaper in China, none seem to have any comms whatsoever, here is one example:

 

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/126286912282?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=709-53476-19255-0&campid=5338765853&toolid=20006&_ul=FR&customid=FR_131090_126286912282.144198589438~1884958317996-g_CjwKCAjwnv-vBhBdEiwABCYQA8yifxQv6DJzTsbsZ46miA47IS0gC-a9U_MsKZCRX3AlY1J1KKt0JxoC3FQQAvD_BwE

[Ootohere]

@Stonekeeper  It would really matter if WE are not all paying for the Electricity to not be generated now because England does not want the Renewables available. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 24 March by Rooted

[Stonekeeper]

5 minutes ago, Rooted said:

@Stonekeeper  It would really matter if WE are not all paying for the Electricity to not be generated now because England does not want the Renewables available. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If only there was a way to store the excess until it was needed.

 

The energy companies and government will encourage the public to invest in Batteries because it's too expensive for the energy companies to do it without hitting profits and shareholder payments

[wyx087]

1 minute ago, J.R. said:

A random example from an Ali-Express search but this charge point makes no mention of comms, it does not appear to need wi-fi or Ethernet, are you saying that if this was plugged into an EV it would not charge or default to the Granny charge current limit?

 

I am not considering fitting this one but just use it as an example.

(not seeing what you are referencing)

All charge points should communicate with the car in the correct way, letting the car know its limits and doing most basic safety checks. Otherwise they wouldn't function and no one would buy them.

 

4 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

will  the cheaper overnight tariffs be sustainable in the future?

 

At the moment they exist because of perceived "Low demand" 

 

will the energy companies still have low demand when millions of ev's are plugged in on 7kw chargers overnight?

 

I can see it all ending in tears and mis-selling law suits

The goal is to match demand with cheap abundant renewables. When this happens, everyone get cheaper energy. But it is unrealistic to expect people to put the kettle on only when the sun shines. So storage capabilities are needed. There will always be points in time where demand is lower than supply capability, batteries can then soak up those cheap electricity.

 

The view that cheap overnight will disappear will only be true if we continue to rely on supply that we can control. For example current majority mix of gas plants.

 

As I always said, key is to keeping the car plugged in. Stop thinking with petrol station, start thinking EV as wasted resource when not plugged in, batteries as assets with flexibility to soak up cheap energy whenever needed.

[Ootohere]

@Stonekeeper   That is fine encouraging the BEV,s to be Storage for electricity.

 

The Fleet / Business user vehicles that HMRC help the businesses to run / park up.  The ones already bought / leased wit incentives.

The Government Agency Vehicles, NHS, & Emergency Service Vehicles, Care Services, Education, Local Authority / Council Vehicles, Public Transport etc. 

 

Just maybe even 10% of the vehicles in the UK that are not privately owned. 

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

 

Its your future in the UK, one you have no choice about but thankfully not my future 🤣

I thought that France is also locked into the 2035 deadline for all new car sales to be BEV, so doesn't that mean that like, us, you'll have no option either. I find rather hard to accept that makers of chargers are going to have to produce variants specifically for the UK? 

[Stonekeeper]

5 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I thought that France is also locked into the 2035 deadline for all new car sales to be BEV, so doesn't that mean that like, us, you'll have no option either. I find rather hard to accept that makers of chargers are going to have to produce variants specifically for the UK? 

 

 

There will be EU regulations that we are following

[Ootohere]

@Graham Butcher Are you really surprised.

The UK or non EU country is a special place for special people with many manufacturers producing / manufacturing goods for the UK or other global regions.

 

[Winston_Woof]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

I thought that France is also locked into the 2035 deadline for all new car sales to be BEV, so doesn't that mean that like, us, you'll have no option either. I find rather hard to accept that makers of chargers are going to have to produce variants specifically for the UK? 

It's only locked in until such time as the goalposts are moved again.

Originally it was "locked in" for 2030 ;o)



Meanwhile I wonder whether or not we are even on course for the 2024  target?




https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-sets-out-path-to-zero-emission-vehicles-by-2035

[Graham Butcher]

2 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

It's only locked in until such time as the goalposts are moved again.

Originally it was "locked in" for 2030 ;o)



Meanwhile I wonder whether or not we are even on course for the 2024  target?




https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-sets-out-path-to-zero-emission-vehicles-by-2035

Yeah, I know and maybe the deadline will be moved yet again and not just here in the UK, there will be many casualties from the fall-out if that ever happens.