2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Are you still saying that electric cars do not pose any risks, I'm not aware of any similar incident ever happening with ICE cars, are you.

Just a few quick google results:

 

Hyundai/Kia urged to park outside:

https://www.mlive.com/auto/2022/02/hyundai-kia-recall-485k-vehicles-over-fire-risk-owners-urged-to-park-outside.html

Vauxhall Zafira recall:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/vauxhall/zafira/93176/vauxhall-zafira-recall-previously-fixed-cars-recalled-again

BMW recall:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/bmw-recalling-917000-us-vehicles-over-engine-fire-concerns-2022-03-09/

 

As you have summarised, the insurance renewal refusal is due to active recall on the car. Great for video content for his target audience.

 

Cars are complex machinery that anything could go wrong. Once the recall had been done, it should not pose any additional risk beyond normal. The same will apply if same fire risk recall were present on any vehicle. This is not EV specific.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

As you have summarised, the insurance renewal refusal is due to active recall on the car. Great for video content for his target audience.

 

Cars are complex machinery that anything could go wrong. Once the recall had been done, it should not pose any additional risk beyond normal. The same will apply if same fire risk recall were present on any vehicle. This is not EV specific.

You are in denial, the fire risk does not manifest itself in ICE vehicles. I am not aware of any incident where a ICE recall could result in a fire and vehicle or building insurance being revoked if not following the advise given by the makers of the vehicle. 

 

The reason for that is the extremely high temperatures of a lithium Ion battery, it's verocity of sending out flamethrower jets of flames, and the highly toxic fumes given off as well and the fact that unlike an ICE fire which can be quickly quelled put out, battery fires cannot be put out quickly or easily and can reignite at any time. That us why the insurance could be withdrawn for non compliance with manufacturers instructions as the claims ensuing from any such incident could be massive. 

 

I expect that we will see more companies refusing insurance in the future until a way of dealing with the problems is found which is both quick and effective, I mentioned before that the UK Government have already imposed a ban on electric cars in any of their own underground and multi-storey carparks in Westminster, so the hazards must be real. Go back and look again for the link to their own website where they published that article, I don't have it any longer.

Edited 29 December, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

@Graham Butcher Have you managed to find  again that article or document on this ban on BEV,s in UK Government owned or controlled underground Car Parks in Westminster? 

Publicly owned properties used by the Government that will be i assume.

 

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/499506-the-truth-about-electric-cars/page/137

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 December, 20241 yr by Ootohere

We are stuffed, we are doomed,  The end is nye!.   & my BEV is charging only 3 meters from where i sit. 

Now the Government will have 67% of those that have EV,s and home charging un-insured. (is that their latest figure with offstreet

parking..?)

 

...................

So actually.    Not a long story short.  Without 'click bait'.

He has to re-arrange his insurance when his policies expire.

He has no idea if he actually can not get the car or house insured or what Terms & Conditions might be applied.

*High annual mileage business user in an EV.*  Multiple charging stops, filming and carrying of expensive equipment.*

 

Until recently he went on about not being able to charge at home, or that his partner would not let him use electric at their gaff to charge. 

 

Obviously. Make a video having not called the Insurers, and then you can make another after, and string things out. Click mean money. 

 

 

 

^^^ Input while driving.   (see video below.)

All the messing about while driving and watching efficiency or not. 

Figuring out stops sometime in the next 90 minutes or so.   Thinking about a pee or having a drink. 

Is there a bush to go to the toilet at or do you need on rain wear and a walk off to sneak in someplace for the bog.. 

Chargers next to no other facilities, 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 December, 20241 yr by Ootohere

12 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I am not aware of any incident where a ICE recall could result in a fire

My brothers 1.8I Zafira was recalled twice for a fault with the heater blower resistor which had resulted in fires in uncorrected vehicles.

UK Police Forces had to stop using BMW Diesels.

& not a fire risk, 

but a fatality of an officer when there was an engine failure at high speed.. 

News articles said 'Old engine oil, engine failure',   Engine failed, oil under wheels etc.

So not fires,

 

but there are fire risks but just to do with the ERG issue, 'Thermal incidents'. 

Edited 29 December, 20241 yr by Ootohere

My insurance went down from 1.3 Renault/Samsung Arkana, using the tce engine, used in many Mercedes as well, with 140 hp in this car's case, to the 170 hp Scenic which also has an RRP about 10k higher. Same as Arkana ie parked on the drive informed to insurance company, the very nice LV people.

 

Certainly no concern there about two EVs parked on the drive and maybe two being simultaneously charged on the drive.

Non issue.

 

The Kia / Hyundai that had to be parked outside or the advice was to were not EV,s.

VW Group should have paid more attention to Engine Covers after VOLVO had issues.

 

Edited 29 December, 20241 yr by Ootohere

14 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

You are in denial, the fire risk does not manifest itself in ICE vehicles.

A few more specifically on the ICE fire recall: 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ford-recall-engine-police-b2599165.html

 

https://news.europawire.eu/man-truck-bus-issues-recall-for-euro-6c-engines-over-potential-fire-risk/eu-press-release/2024/06/29/11/24/42/137553/?amp

 

You are actually the one in denial. Hopefully those links raises your awareness with car recalls. Just because you are not aware does not mean those things don’t exist. 
 

And just because battery have a different burn profile, does not mean it is more likely to self combust. Risk calculation is mostly on likelihood. We have seen data suggest EV are a magnitude less likely to claim fire insurance, thus, battery EV have much lower fire risk. 

 

 

 

I think you need to stop posting your baseless rambling and start actually come up with something to back up your claims. 
 

Example: 
 

7 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Have you managed to find  again that article or document on this ban on BEV,s in UK Government owned or controlled underground Car Parks in Westminster? 

Publicly owned properties used by the Government that will be i assume.

 

2 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

My brothers 1.8I Zafira was recalled twice for a fault with the heater blower resistor which had resulted in fires in uncorrected vehicles.

Oh yes, sorry my bad, that was also one of those pointed out by @wyx087, however the fact still remains that ICE fires are massively easier to bring under control and put out and stay out, in quick time. The fear that Insurance companies have is that once the high voltage becomes the source of the fire, or gets involved in the fire to the extent that it is itself on fire, then it is pretty much game over. And unless there are other vehicles or structures in the fire, the usual response from fire brigades is to monitor it and let it burn itself out as the fire engines cannot carry enough water to be effective, and then there is the problem of controlling the run-off water as it has become highly toxic and needs to be prevented from soaking into the ground and entering drains.

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh yes, sorry my bad, that was also one of those pointed out by @wyx087, however the fact still remains that ICE fires are massively easier to bring under control and put out and stay out, in quick time. The fear that Insurance companies have is that once the high voltage becomes the source of the fire, or gets involved in the fire to the extent that it is itself on fire, then it is pretty much game over. And unless there are other vehicles or structures in the fire, the usual response from fire brigades is to monitor it and let it burn itself out as the fire engines cannot carry enough water to be effective, and then there is the problem of controlling the run-off water as it has become highly toxic and needs to be prevented from soaking into the ground and entering drains.

 

Not really, it is just put a fire blanket on it, works really well, videos of this online.

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

My insurance went down from 1.3 Renault/Samsung Arkana, using the tce engine, used in many Mercedes as well, with 140 hp in this car's case, to the 170 hp Scenic which also has an RRP about 10k higher. Same as Arkana ie parked on the drive informed to insurance company, the very nice LV people.

 

Certainly no concern there about two EVs parked on the drive and maybe two being simultaneously charged on the drive.

Non issue.

 

The context was that the cars in question are the subject of a manufacturer's recall as they have had incidents of said cars catching fire and they issued specific guidelines/instructions and are therefore a known fire hazard. The cars you are speaking of, are your own cars, and are NOT the subject of recall because there has been problems with them catching fire, therefore they are totally irrelevant to this discussion. Insurance companies only get twitchy about such risks when there is a fully justified reason, in your case, there is no such reason, so your comment is only serving to stir the pot 

6 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Not really, it is just put a fire blanket on it, works really well, videos of this online.

To use a fire blanket, as seen in videos, assumes that the fire brigade arrive quickly enough to be able to get close enough to the burning car safely, and that the car has plenty of space around it in order to deploy the blanket effectively. In the videos that I have seen the fire was started deliberately by the fireman so they were already there, and they also had the blanket ready and the car was totally exposed and well away from other car and structures, so not a real world example, is it?

Edited 29 December, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

The context was that the cars in question are the subject of a manufacturer's recall as they have had incidents of said cars catching fire and they issued specific guidelines/instructions and are therefore a known fire hazard. The cars you are speaking of, are your own cars, and are NOT the subject of recall because there has been problems with them catching fire, therefore they are totally irrelevant to this discussion. Insurance companies only get twitchy about such risks when there is a fully justified reason, in your case, there is no such reason, so your comment is only serving to stir the pot 

 

If Jag i Paces or Taycans are deemed a fire this is not big news as most of us EV drivers/owners use mainstream EVs such as Nissan, Renault and TESLA and i not surprised that small volume sales companies have problems so the story is of minute relevance to us with mainstream EVs. Not heard of any statistically relevant number of mainstream EVs have self igniting issues.

 

5 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

If Jag i Paces or Taycans are deemed a fire this is not big news as most of us EV drivers/owners use mainstream EVs such as Nissan, Renault and TESLA and i not surprised that small volume sales companies have problems so the story is of minute relevance to us with mainstream EVs. Not heard of any statistically relevant number of mainstream EVs have self igniting issues.

 

The other thing with mainstream EV's is that they also tend to have smaller HV batteries as the cars themselves are both lighter and more efficient in the way that they use energy thus need smaller batteries, so that becomes an advantage if problems ever were to arise.

10 hours ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher Have you managed to find  again that article or document on this ban on BEV,s in UK Government owned or controlled underground Car Parks in Westminster? 

Publicly owned properties used by the Government that will be i assume.

 

No I have not even began to look for it, and TBH I doubt that it is published anywhere where the public can access it as it goes against the narrative doesn't it with their Net Zero policy and big push towards getting ICE vehicles off the roads. 

Edited 29 December, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

Let's hope that there are no deaths or life changing injuries from BEV,s or PHEV,s setting homes or properties on fire be that with residents or the emergency services.

We are sure to hear when there are any such incidents in the UK or globally.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 December, 20241 yr by Ootohere

41 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Let's hope that there are no deaths or life changing injuries from BEV,s or PHEV,s setting homes or properties on fire be that with residents or the emergency services.

We are sure to hear when there are any such incidents in the UK or globally.

 

None of this is new, there is a copy of that guide that Arup produced already in this thread, which I do believe I put there. Arups is one of the many consulting engineering companies that I have worked with for around 40 years, mainly in the London area as well.

 

Interesting to hear the consultant confirm precisely what I said about the fire blanket not being the ideal solution in the real world, along with the water tank for immersing the vehicle, also not always suitable or easily transportable to the scene of the fire. Also the PSS person also pointed out the fact that in the demonstrations of the fire blanket, the batteries were not on fire. It also endorses the points I've already raised about fires on car transport ships, CO2 flooding does not stop the fires, fire blankets are not suitable because there is no space to deploy it either, and water as was mentioned is not effective either.

Edited 29 December, 20241 yr by Graham Butcher

The second video that @Ootohere kindly shared, has a number of flaws, all of which I have, and many other interested parties pointed out as misinformation. Similarly, the first video also pointed out some of those flaws. It is also worthy of mention that we have been transporting ICE vehicles all over the globe via special ships for decades now, but it is really only in the last few years that we have a multitude of such fires onboard ships, with many ships being lost as a result of the fires. These ships were all carrying both EV and ICE vehicles, doesn't that seem at odds when we have all those decades relatively free of such events? 

Were they all carrying EV,s and ICE Vehicles?    What about those not carrying vehicles but batteries?

How many actual Vehicle carrying Ships have been lost through fire in the last decades. 

http://www.gcaptain.com/a-brief-look-back-at-recent-car-carrier-fires

 

 

Edited 29 December, 20241 yr by Ootohere

6 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Were they all carrying EV,s and ICE Vehicles?    What about those not carrying vehicles but batteries?

How many actual Vehicle carrying Ships have been lost through fire in the last decades. 

I did say car transporting ships, not cargo ships etc, I don't recall that many major fires on car transporting ships that resulted in the loss of the ship, either by way of sinking or by way of being scrapped like the Fremantle Highway in 2023.

6 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

http://www.gcaptain.com/a-brief-look-back-at-recent-car-carrier-fires

 

 

Conclusion extracted from the above site.

 

Conclusion

While it’s difficult to draw conclusions about the Fremantle Highway fire and others from previous incidents, a look back at similar incidents does provide some insight and background about the dangers associated with transportation of new and used vehicles on roll-on/roll-off ships. With the growing popularity of electric vehicles, it will be interesting to see how or if rules and regulations evolve to meet new challenges associated with transporting them by ship.

@Graham ButcherIs it a case of not being able to recall or just never actually knowing the numbers. 

You are just one of many around the world with concerns.

The shippers and the owners and insurers will know the actual numbers and the risks and charge accordingly, or just not transport EV,s new or used.

Time will tell. 

 

EDIT.

What is your point on the conclusions?  we have a thread on the Car Carrier fires and the ships we know about.

I thought you were making out more car carrier fires as there are more EV,s carried and the reason being EV,s.

Edited 29 December, 20241 yr by Ootohere

The thing with EV's is not that they are any more prone to fires than ICE vehicles, but if and when the batteries do catch fire, the consequences are so much more serious and poses greater risks for damage and fatalities than ICE vehicles do, can we all at least accept that fact and stop tearing each other up. If that was not a fact, then the likes of Arup would not have been commissioned to compile a report and recommended guidelines for the developers of car parks etc to follow.