Battery issues… (Resolved)

[ChoonDoode]

To be fair when I changed my battery, I did the same as you; gloves, grease and a bit of tape covering the old positive post.

 

Just a belt and braces approach.

 

Only thing I did different, was I had my new battery on the bench first and threw the optimate on it before it was in the car. That was just so I knew the battery was in full health before I started swapping it.

[cheezemonkhai]

14 hours ago, nta16 said:

cheezemonkhai just for info, modern batteries haven't needed their post protecting to the terminal clamps for quite a number of years but don't loose sleep over it.  If you remove the terminal clamps for any reason in the future you can wipe the inside of them and the battery posts clean.

 

You can buy a tool for cleaning the battery posts and inside of clamps but you should need to do much cleaning on the posts of a new battery anyway.

 

Lots of garages spray over the top of the battery clamps and posts but as xman has already put not necessary and put good for collecting dirt/crud/ muck/grit.

 

For battery figures of Ah and CCA you do have to also consider for how long and how well any given battery will keep to its figures as stated at new so a bit of  research, calculation of other info given, trust, guesswork, reputation and hope involved.  I've attached a PDF of different standards to measure CCA as there might be variances in other countries, usually EN here but also note the DIN in fabdavrav post.

 

As I discovered with a neighbour's old Merc, Halfords can have their own system of battery numbering if you use their database, as my neighbour did and then didn't want me to cut off the additional level of plastic foot hold down bar, 30 seconds work, so I spent 30 minutes altering the clamping plate instead.

 

Batteries and charging don't like the cold or hot, some chargers also have a winter setting for when the temperature will be below 5c as well as AGM setting.  Your CTek MXS 7.0 is fully set for AGM going from -20c to +50c.  At 7 amp it's quick but note Yuasa recommend 4 Amp so you'd be better perhaps, when required, putting the charger on at nearer 4 weeks than 2.  As with the battery figures the highest numbers aren't always the best.

 

I always recommend a long low slow recharge as possible rather than faster especially if the discharge was long, low and slow.

 

Sounds like you already have a separate battery analyser but you can also get combined smart charger with battery analyser.

 

The 12.7 wasn't necessarily fully charged but it does depend on what figure your machine usually gives (can be 12.8v or 12.9, my digital multimeter will show well into 13 on my car even after surface discharge).

 

Hope this is useful with your battery changing guide.  Cheers.

CarBatteryInformation.pdf 66.49 kB · 3 downloads

I picked up the mxs7 rather than the 5 because on the 7 the initial stage pulsing is at 14.something volts rather than 15.something on the mxs 5.

 

For AGM batteries the 15.8 is apparently bad and the 5 at the time did the same even on AGM mode.

 

You however make the point about monthly instead of two weekly, which is definitely fair.

Edited 7 December, 2021 by cheezemonkhai
typo

[PetrolDave]

13 hours ago, xman said:

Most of these products are excellent electrical insulators so not exactly desirable on terminal posts prior to fitting the connectors. They are also great at collecting dirt.

There are specially formulated battery contact greases available such as Liqui Moly 3140 Battery Terminal Grease

[cheezemonkhai]

44 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

There are specially formulated battery contact greases available such as Liqui Moly 3140 Battery Terminal Grease

 

That looks non-conductive, so probably the same issues as vaslene I imagine.

I'm unsure if this sort of thing would be worth anything to be honest.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/MG-Chemicals-Premium-Carbon-Conductive/dp/B00NB14C2C/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_60_t_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=3XYF9V8SD3CAX1R4J28R

 

In terms of the old battery, this was rated at 68A 380 DIN / 680 EN/SAE and the battery tester reported the state as good, but clearly not good enough for a diesel on a cold day that hasn't been started for a few days.

 

 

 

 

Edited 7 December, 2021 by cheezemonkhai

[nta16]

11 hours ago, tunedude said:

Only thing I did different, was I had my new battery on the bench first and threw the optimate on it before it was in the car. That was just so I knew the battery was in full health before I started swapping it.

Yes I did too, some say you don't need to, others even say you shouldn't but I did and the car and I came out of it unscathed.  as some were so against such a thing I contacted Tayna to check and they said it was fine.  Some also said I should not have used my 20 year old Accumate (or my 30 year Bradex BX4 (amp)) I can't remember if I checked this with Tayna or not but I would have put it in my post if I did. 

 

The Liqui Moly Battery Clamp Grease is for the job but would probably be of better use in wire plug connectors. - https://products.liqui-moly.com/battery-clamp-grease-3.html

 

The MG Chemicals 8481 - Premium Carbon Conductive Grease seems to me to be a switch/rotate lubricating grease which would probably work but I'd ask MG Chemicals which of their many products they'd recommend for car use you'd probably get a long list unless you spoke to a tech on the phone and just asked them to suggest one. - https://www.mgchemicals.com/products/grease-for-electronics/electrically-conductive-grease/conductive-grease/

 

[nta16]

cheezemonkhai, is your machine's figures are accurate I think given a longer, lower, slower recharge after depleting its present charge the battery might be good for use.  A way to deplete it might be a drop test like cranking over an engine that has been prevented from starting to see how quickly the battery drops.

 

If the battery wasn't good enough to start your diesel on a cold day that hasn't been started for a few days (assuming it's a correct size battery for your car needs) then it might be loose or crudded connections or wire elsewhere also not helping the battery so you might want to do a quick check.

 

I won't suggest it was the old grease on the old battery's post. 🤣

 

I can't remember, did you also check test the alternator just in case?

 

[BigEjit]

Save your cash. You don’t need any special greases for the terminals. A thin smear of Vaseline is all that is needed. It’s offered as an optional extra and applied as part of the finishing processes for OEM spec batteries. It’s only a moisture barrier to stop lead oxide crystals forming on the posts before installation into a vehicle.

 

If a battery is not performing or holding charge after a decent recharge, it’s done and not recoverable. There’s no harm in recharging a new battery. Just make sure AGM is charged with 14.8v limited power source/ AGM program. The other types are less fussy. 

[nta16]

Though if the battery tester figures are correct and accurate, and provided they can be repeated after a bit of battery use, 68% or even 58% isn't it's all over for the battery but it's not a good base if the battery got a deep charge.

 

It's a shame when these batteries can't fully run out their days perhaps with some lighter work powering something else rather than premature euthanasia.  My wife's old Fabia battery is having an easy life over at a mate's home garage but at least it's being used.

 

It's like the batteries in some digital items around the home that need changing but are only half worn they move on to other items and can last years longer in those, LED lights will take the dregs out of them.

 

[BigEjit]

8 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

In terms of the old battery, this was rated at 68A 380 DIN / 680 EN/SAE and the battery tester reported the state as good, but clearly not good enough for a diesel on a cold day that hasn't been started for a few days.

 

 

 

 

Testers give an indication of condition as they cannot be calibrated. The EN spec test is a week long affair of conditioning, discharge and recharge at controlled temps on several test samples. Midtronics deliver the best results but still need some interpretation with them. Using a hand-held whilst the battery is still connected to the vehicle throws further variables into the mix that confuses things further. 
 

The important take-aways here are the voltage relative to CCA indicated and rated values for the ambient temp. 
 

Disconnected battery - Ideally the closer a voltage is to 12.72v, the higher the indicated CCA should be in relation to the rated value. Fully charged and voltage stable at room temp, the indicated CCA should be approx 15 to 20% higher than the label rating on a cycled fresh condition battery.

 

If it is close to or lower than the rated value, the battery is compromised and heading towards needing replacement. Recharging in this condition just delays the inevitable. The bigger the gap, the worse it is. 

[nta16]

So provided conditions hadn't changed too much cheezemonkhai real world testing of the battery, after the charging I now assume, and it not being good enough to start the car was a better test and result than the battery tester readout.  I owe an apology.

 

cheezemonkhai, I apologises, for doubting you and your charging.

 

Interesting the 380 DIN to 680 EN/SAE which I assume was on the battery label as few conversion charts I've seen have varying figures and reading the requirements gives me a headache.  It's as annoying as having a mix of metric and imperialist measurements and threads on my old car, I struggle to see 1mm marks let alone count sixteenths of an inch on a ruler.

 

I don't blame anyone changing their car battery a bit early on these VWs machines with their invasive computer programs, a slight dip in level and the car's computer programs are throwing wobblies of all sorts all over the place, best to accept the computers are the masters.  😄

 

[J.R.]

I have an electronic tester and an old school toaster element drop tester, both are best used as comparators and the more you use them the more familiar you become with them the better you are at judging a good from a bad battery without getting too hung up on the numbers.

 

The electronic ones are useless if the battery is connected to the vehicle, disconnected successive tests on the same battery can yield major variations in the results even though they barely load the battery, I  take several readings when the battery is new and record them, thereafter I use it as a comparator, the % life remaining displayed is pretty meaningless.

 

The drop tester is better in experienced hands, to follow the instructions and use the display properly you must know the battery capacity and look really carefully at the green, orange and red segments as they have a staircase like progression from one to the next dependant on the capacity. I prefer to simply watch how quickly the voltage drops compared to the battery capacity or even watch the toaster element to see how quickly it glows and whether it maintains the glow.

 

When I was in my teens I used to buy the best of the old exchange batteries from the petrol station, the guy I knew there who sold them to me for cash would test them by putting a shovel across both terminals and seeing how big the spark was, one fatefull day he did it after taking the battery off charge, he was nicknamed Nikki Lauda after that!!!!

 

So with that in mind I never lend out my drop tester, only the electronic one.

Edited 7 December, 2021 by J.R.

[cheezemonkhai]

3 hours ago, BigEjit said:

Testers give an indication of condition as they cannot be calibrated. The EN spec test is a week long affair of conditioning, discharge and recharge at controlled temps on several test samples. Midtronics deliver the best results but still need some interpretation with them. Using a hand-held whilst the battery is still connected to the vehicle throws further variables into the mix that confuses things further. 
 

The important take-aways here are the voltage relative to CCA indicated and rated values for the ambient temp. 
 

Disconnected battery - Ideally the closer a voltage is to 12.72v, the higher the indicated CCA should be in relation to the rated value. Fully charged and voltage stable at room temp, the indicated CCA should be approx 15 to 20% higher than the label rating on a cycled fresh condition battery.

 

If it is close to or lower than the rated value, the battery is compromised and heading towards needing replacement. Recharging in this condition just delays the inevitable. The bigger the gap, the worse it is. 

 

FWIW the battery was off the car as it’s been replaced with the new one. 👍

 

Once off I fully charged it on the ctek to float, left it overnight 18 hours and put the tester on it this morning. 
 

Obviously I ignored the good/otherwise rating and percentage and it’s not accurate but it’s a reasonable indication that it has lost around a quarter of the cold grunt it had new. Probably more as it wasn’t that cold this morning although it had been left outside all night.

 

I repeated the test about 3 times under the EN and DIN settings so at least the meter was consistent. I’d also got the 12.7 from a multimeter previously.

 

So it whilst it isn’t totally dead, it’s no longer fit for turning over a cold diesel. Probably fine for a 1L petrol or a solar light system😂

 

At nearly 7 years old, plus CoVID lockdowns (even with charging) I was waiting for it to decide it was time to start going south 👍
 

As an aside, I charged the new battery on the ctek AGM program (14.7V max) before putting it in, so I know it is full when it went in.

Edited 8 December, 2021 by cheezemonkhai

[nta16]

Yeah I think you gave it more than a fair chance, it was just no longer up to the job.

 

I'm not a big fan of these battery testers or modern digital multimeters especially the cheap ones after a use or two and certainly out of guarantee they might work as continuity bleepers but forget the figures.  I was bought a more expensive, but not expensive, multimeter and it seems very optimistic with it's readings on my battery.  Of course the cheap one are really the most expensive as you have to keep replacing them, what a waste of materials.

 

I'm surprised the old toaster type testers are still sold, good for warming or blistering your hands this time of year.

 

I like my old battery charger as I can tell by the swing needle how low a battery is and how likely or quickly a battery might charge by how much the needle has moved within the first 5-10 minutes.

 

[Nickj633]

Just a quickie, how did you get around the issue of losing power to the radio, thus requiring a re code? 
 

Looking to do a self change soon and indie recode for new battery.

 

thanks

[J.R.]

You do not require a recode, just patience.

[nta16]

Nickj633, there are various devices you can use as memory savers have a look on t'web for your choice, just for the radio memory there's little battery ones Google can't find for me at the moment or you can plug into the OBD port and save all settings using another power source.

 

I like the idea of a complete wipe clear of all the other systems (saving except for the radio if you've lost the code) myself as the computers often get themselves mixed up and need rebooting, I know where I'd reboot them.

 

ETA: Apologies , I made a right idiot of myself (again) there, trying to find on another page the battery memory saver thingies that use AA sized batteries and what to call it for Google to find, doing two things at once and failing at both.  Sorry about me contaminating with confusion.

Edited 12 December, 2021 by nta16
ETA:

[cheezemonkhai]

9 hours ago, Nickj633 said:

Just a quickie, how did you get around the issue of losing power to the radio, thus requiring a re code? 
 

Looking to do a self change soon and indie recode for new battery.

 

thanks

On the mk3, it isn’t an issue as far as I saw. 
The other bits I mentioned like tyre pressures etc were reset, but the radio wasn’t for me.

 

As for no recode… I wouldn’t, especially when even Halfords will do it included in their £20. 
It says you should and it resets the intelligent charging system, but you get the correct tech battery set.  Why wouldn’t you?

Edited 11 December, 2021 by cheezemonkhai

[nta16]

19 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

As for no recode… I wouldn’t, especially when even Halfords will do it included in their £20.

Totally agree.

 

 

19 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Why wouldn’t you?

Well if it's a like for like battery change and you do it yourself it saves looking for someone with a scanner (or £20 to Halfords).

 

On my wife's Fabia Mk3 only the time of day (date? I forget) 'clock' needed resetting which was the one I wasn't expecting.

 

 

19 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

intelligent charging system

That's not the adjective I use. 🙂

 

Edited 11 December, 2021 by nta16

[J.R.]

9 hours ago, nta16 said:

Nickj633, there are various devices you can use as memory savers have a look on t'web for your choice, just for the radio memory there's little battery ones

Nothing needs to be done in respect of the radio code, it will remain, when people think it hasn't they are being impatient, ignore any message and the radio will come to life on its own.

9 hours ago, nta16 said:

 

I like the idea of a complete wipe clear of all the other systems (saving the radio if you've lost the code) myself as the computers often get themselves mixed up and need rebooting, I know where I'd reboot them.

 

I know that you write this several times a day but that does not make it any truer.

 

How do you propose to "reboot" all the other computers that you believe the vehicle has whilst "saving" the radio?

[cheezemonkhai]

13 minutes ago, nta16 said:

 

That's not the adjective I use. 🙂

Assume intelligent was in double quotes because it’s clearly not, but it does have a parameter set.

[nta16]

10 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I know that you write this several times a day but that does not make it any truer.

Wot yu on about?  I put I like the idea, since when are you allowed to police what I like

 

 

14 minutes ago, J.R. said:

How do you propose to "reboot" all the other computers that you believe the vehicle has whilst "saving" the radio?

Er, oh yer, see wot yu mean, er a brain fart there, mixed up the worms, I was programmed by VW I go a bit haywire every now and again - or Hooke's law and I'm a screw loose. 😁 (smiley for others).

 

Must be lack of alcohol.

 

[J.R.]

15 minutes ago, nta16 said:

Wot yu on about?  I put I like the idea, since when are you allowed to police what I like

 

 

I was referring to your penchant for writing "as the computers often get themselves mixed up and need rebooting" and similar, not your liking of an idea.

[nta16]

IIRC first time I've put "need rebooting", don't think I've put they need booting either or where I boot them, or reboot them.

 

You have also referred to my penchant on previous occasion(s) (I've not kept track).

 

So are you saying computers never get confused and computers never need rebooting, I'm at a lost to your objection and you'd not want to see my i-can't Phone repair kit.

 

 

1 hour ago, J.R. said:

Nothing needs to be done in respect of the radio code, it will remain, when people think it hasn't they are being impatient, ignore any message and the radio will come to life on its own.

Does this only apply to the subject car (2015 Octavia Scout) or generally, say for a 2005 Merc A-Class, and as you wouldn't want me passing on just what I've been told have you any confirmation you can put up that I can pass on?  If I can pass on that conformation info it'd help me and I'll put you back on my Xmas card list, well, provisionally for this year at least.

 

Edited 11 December, 2021 by nta16

[J.R.]

To paraphrase Wino. - Grow up!

 

 

[ords]

11 hours ago, nta16 said:

Nickj633, there are various devices you can use as memory savers have a look on t'web for your choice, just for the radio memory there's little battery ones Google can't find for me at the moment or you can plug into the OBD port and save all settings using another power source.

 

I like the idea of a complete wipe clear of all the other systems (saving the radio if you've lost the code) myself as the computers often get themselves mixed up and need rebooting, I know where I'd reboot them.

 

I agree a re-boot may help if you've been having problems, but how would you just keep the radio only powered?