Repeat head gasket failure

[nta16]

34 minutes ago, areed said:

Fairly confident the engine is the original one. 

 

That's interesting though, all of the ones I've found to buy online had the same red sealant. Where'd you manage to pick yours up?

Fair enough about engine and previous gasket (though it does look odd).

 

Bear in mind many sites/sellers can show wrong/generic/out-of-date images and it may depend on the age of the stock.

 

Payen could have gone over to green PTFE for many reasons (hopefully not because the shiny black ones like I fitted in 2020 were faulty) but I did note that DT581 is a gasket set and BT581 is a single gasket.

 

DT581 - https://www.drivparts.com/en-gb/catalogue/60285/payen/sealing/gasket-set--cylinder-head/dt581.pd.html#wildcardspecial-part_number=dt581&search_type=part&category_id=3

 

BT581 - https://www.drivparts.com/en-gb/catalogue/5109601/payen/sealing/gasket--cylinder-head/bt581.pd.html#wildcardspecial-part_number=BT581&search_type=part&category_id=3

 

Always 'fun' ordering parts particularly where you can't go into the shop and actually seen them like you used to.

 

ETA: Sorry, I'm not trying to add to your problems but trying to help avoid them if possible, I know from 30+ years experience ordering parts for particularly older cars isn't always as straightforward as some might expect and there can be many listing differences in parts listings, catalogues and databases.

 

Edited 19 January, 2022 by nta16

[Thefeliciahacker]

2 minutes ago, nta16 said:

DT581

Dt 581 contains bt580 head gasket hahaba

[areed]

25 minutes ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Locally search for payen BT581 

 

I did have a search online, the images I could find were either of the red sealant type or too low-resolution to tell, like the one linked above which looks like this:

 

1 minute ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Dt 581 contains bt580 head gasket hahaba

 

Now that's some quality parts numbering!

[nta16]

8 minutes ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Dt 581 contains bt580 head gasket hahaba

No, sorry,  - BT580 is "No Product found".  ETA: In the listing I linked to.

Edited 19 January, 2022 by nta16
ETA:

[nta16]

8 minutes ago, areed said:

I did have a search online, the images I could find were either of the red sealant type or too low-resolution to tell, like the one linked above which looks like this:

That's the image I put my hyperlink to, but it might just be an image as if not that that looks like a rough cut paper/fibre(?) type gasket rather than a clean cut green PTFE but as I say it might just be an image but often it's best to confirm as after all the gasket has changed from when you last ordered it.

 

Of course the lists I have linked to maybe in error, I don't know (I've dealt with many errors in many listing so I take little for granted in that respect now.

 

Edited 19 January, 2022 by nta16
spelling

[Thefeliciahacker]

Yes the bt580 was phased out of production but the set did include them 

[nta16]

1 minute ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Yes the bt580 was phased out of production but the set did include them 

Fair enough, so which gasket is in the DT581set, presumably the BT581(?) (but dangerous to assume).

 

There is or might be(?) a listing for DT580 set so that might still be available some places(?). -https://www.drivparts.com/en-gb/catalogue/60833/payen/sealing/gasket-set--cylinder-head/dt580.pd.html#wildcardspecial-part_number=DT580&search_type=part&category_id=3

 

For a Payen gasket I like the look of the green one you have but I would also look at other makes of gasket that are well made and fit well too.

 

[Thefeliciahacker]

16 minutes ago, nta16 said:

For a Payen gasket I like the look of the green one you have but I would also look at other makes of gasket that are well made and fit well too.

Elring 

[R_Blue]

13 hours ago, nta16 said:

@R_Blueare you able to say if the head in your photo used the same sort of Payen gasket as areed and whether the cause was thought or found to be the gasket?

@areed had posted pictures of the previous head gasket too.

@areed 's previous head gasket was a TEMAC.

 

14 hours ago, areed said:

The car's done about 40000 miles since it was changed, current total for the engine is 162000.

From your previous posts, I think you are not the first owner of the car. So we don't know the exact number of HG replacement.

 

Important questions now:

- How will the head look like when it's cleaned? What's the current situation of the surface? (Straightness of the entire head surface and status of the previous pits especially around coolant holes)

- Can the head skimmed further if needed?

- I've heard about a filler material for the corrosion pits. That must be applied before skimming. (not sure about the product name JB Weld Extreme heat ???)

- Will applying JB Weld Extreme Heat to fill the pits, skimming the head again and using thicker head gasket save the head? Or at least buy enough time for justifying the effort?

 

There are "thicker than normal" head gaskets on the market. Which might help to solve the issue.

[nta16]

Just seen in the other thread Thefeliciahacker put - "Mine is a green bt581"

 

@areedI'm being fussy about hg and numbers because as I put in Thefeliciahacker's thread I had a BK450 in 2020 and it had a sticker on it , which was really a small hand cut piece of paper, clear taped on the outside of the gasket packaging as photo below.  Also I  saw a story  about another owner that fitted the BK450 gasket and filled the engine with water ready to test the next day to discover when he went in his garage the next morning the water had leaked out at the gasket. This suggest that at least there might be an issue with that one particular Payen gasket at one time.

 

Bear my story relates to a black sticky-surface type gasket different to yours but I took no chance and followed the advice on the sticker.

 

[nta16]

2 hours ago, R_Blue said:

There are "thicker than normal" head gaskets on the market. Which might help to solve the issue.

I didn't want to put things like this as a certain person just guns at things I put picking holes, highlighting the mistakes I make (many) is fine but me having to explain everything I put and where I've referenced from gets tedious for everyone.

 

I was thinking of this as it was suggested, along with other actions, to someone I know fitting a supercharger to his car.

 

Quick Google search - "A rule of thumb for automotive engines is that a 0.025-inch increase in head gasket thickness will lower compression about 0.5-points" I don't know the accuracy of this statement though.

 

Edited 19 January, 2022 by nta16

[R_Blue]

@nta16

Quote

Please note - I am not a mechanic or expert in anything.

Just like you. I'm not expert or mechanic too.

I'm posting my findings usually like "maybe, might" or asking questions about the idea.

 

Some repair shops advice using thick HG for heads with multiple skims applied. I don't know about long term results of a thick HG.

 

Solid info I've already shared with the community here is this:

 

Above picture is from my HGF repair topic.

The pictured HG above is for 1.4 Fabia with engine codes AZE AME AQW. Made by Elring. I used this on a '93 Forman with 135 engine.

[nta16]

50 minutes ago, R_Blue said:

Solid info I've already shared with the community here is this:

 

Above picture is from my HGF repair topic.

The pictured HG above is for 1.4 Fabia with engine codes AZE AME AQW. Made by Elring. I used this on a '93 Forman with 135 engine.

Very shiny.  That gasket looks a better fit to that block, though not tailored fit, the copper insert appears to line up much better with the hole.

 

Originally I thought those types were Payens  but now I know better (if I can remember).

 

[nta16]

I don't suppose s/h heads are readily available in the UK.  Used to be the scrap yards out Norfolk/Suffolk that were great, very low prices for items.

 

[RicardoM]

My choice for a HG has always been Victor Reinz.

See here for their catalogues.

[R_Blue]

20 hours ago, nta16 said:

I don't suppose s/h heads are readily available in the UK.  Used to be the scrap yards out Norfolk/Suffolk that were great, very low prices for items.

Autodoc UK has new aftermarket heads. https://www.autodoc.co.uk/vika/14021663

 

@areed  What will you do next? You've kept calm so far. I respect that.

 

Also I've found this:

What do you think about the engine in the video above?

[areed]

1 hour ago, R_Blue said:

What do you think about the engine in the video above?

Their gasket looks to be in far better shape than either of the ones I removed, particularly around the coolant ways.  Wonder if it was the original one or had been changed recently too.

 

1 hour ago, R_Blue said:

@areed  What will you do next?

 

My current plan is to get the head skimmed, and refit with a new gasket.  I haven't seen anything obvious yet on here that I might have missed last time, my current suspicion is that the surface of the block was marginally not good enough. Unfortunately my circumstances at the moment mean that I don't have the time or facilities to disassemble the engine sufficiently to get that resurfaced, but if the new gasket lasts another 6 years then perhaps by then I'll be able to do a more compehensive job!

[J.R.]

It's not a failure of the fire ring so whilst you should always skim the head if you can that or the block are not the cause of the failure of the gasket which has happened where the gasket is unsealed and exposed to the water passages in the engine block on the lower face and touching but not clamped to the cylinder head on the upper face.

[D.FYLAKTOS]

I have heard many stories here about cars with a head gasket failure which the mechanics took the chance to ''tunning'' the head on the bench so after the compression is one click higher.

Is this good?

[R_Blue]

8 hours ago, areed said:

My current plan is to get the head skimmed, and refit with a new gasket.  I haven't seen anything obvious yet on here that I might have missed last time, my current suspicion is that the surface of the block was marginally not good enough. Unfortunately my circumstances at the moment mean that I don't have the time or facilities to disassemble the engine sufficiently to get that resurfaced, but if the new gasket lasts another 6 years then perhaps by then I'll be able to do a more compehensive job!

Another six years means 2028! Considering the shift to e-cars in 2030 and living in the UK means your next engine topic may be in the electric conversion section. Fair enough.

 

On 13/02/2016 at 00:36, areed said:

 If I had any choice, I wouldn't have done the entire job in a car park in December.

This is so unfortunate...☃️❄️ ❄️

 

4 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

I have heard many stories here about cars with a head gasket failure which the mechanics took the chance to ''tunning'' the head on the bench so after the compression is one click higher.

Is this good?

With a low compression 135 engine, acceptable.

I wouldn't raise compression ratio of a 136 engine too much. 1.4 Fabia crank upgrade seems more plausible.

[Thefeliciahacker]

8 hours ago, R_Blue said:

1.4 Fabia crank upgrade seems more plausible

Don't you need shorter conrods? 

[Papez]

11 minutes ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Don't you need shorter conrods? 

No, you need Fabia pistons, they have wrist pin 3mm higher. And various mod on crankshaft itself to fit it into the 13x block

[Thefeliciahacker]

8 hours ago, Papez said:

they have wrist pin 3mm higher

Clever very clever indeed. They changed the absolute minimum. 

In theory would a 1. 3 ecu unmodded deal with a stroked engine 

[areed]

Managed to find the time to finish the cleanup and reassembly.  I had the head skimmed, the machine shop didn't say how much they took off but the notch at the centre top has now vanished. I vaguely recall seeing on here that this notch is the skim limit indicator, although I'm not certain. If it is, then the limit has presumably now been reached.

 

 

The block I cleaned as best I could by hand, and I hoovered out the pile of disintegrated gasket from inside the coolant ways too.  For future reference, if anyone else finds themselves having to remove lots of the grey stuck-on gasket material I found that applying acetone with a dropper bottle would soften this enough for it to be gradually scrubbed off with a plastic dish scourer. It still took several hours to clean up, but I was wary of using anything harsher as the aluminium is so easy to scratch.

 

 

All back together with a new gasket (made by BGA, as they made a gasket set with the new style separate inlet/exhaust gaskets), and seems to be running OK.  Today I discovered that the front brakes had partly seized, presumably because it sat for so long, but having disassembled and examined these I think they will be OK once freed off.

 

Still not sure what caused the gasket to disintegrate, it seemed to have failed worst where it was exposed to the coolant.  Does anyone have a recommended brand of coolant compatible with these cars?

[D.FYLAKTOS]

16 minutes ago, areed said:

Does anyone have a recommended brand of coolant compatible with these cars?

 

G11: HEPU, Motul, Wurth, Repsol, Valeo, Mannol, Febi, Valvoline

 

Also from an UK store suggestions .