I drive a 1 L TSI in my Rapid NA (India). This is a Mar'21 manufactured car. Transmission is Automatic (6 speed TC). The engine is turbocharged 81 KW, 175 Nm torque.

I am contemplating to put VW 508 (which is 0W20 SN) in my engine but Skoda dealers say it is not recommended by manufacturer and hence I need to stick to VW 502.

For my engine code DSHA, I suspect factory fill was VW 508 only and authorised workshops putting VW 502 during annual service is a degrade to fuel efficiency and performance.

Hence I wish to retort to VW 508 on this year's scheduled service.

Any recommendations basis prior similar experiences?

Thanks,

Edited 16 March, 20251 yr by autliebe
More context about engine added for reader convenience.

I replied to your post in the Rapid section.

To summarise, you have a [ ETA: March ] 2021 Rapid NA (India), saloon, with 1.0 TSI, 81kW / 110PS, DSHA, turbocharged engine and want to know which VW specification engine you should use.

You need to put in the correct specification fluids for your particular engine and year of engine for your country.

If you don't trust the Dealers then contact VWŠkoda for your country or region and check with them.

What does your Owner's Manual for the car say about oil specification for your engine?

Engine oil isn't just about the numbers and fuel economy it is also about protecting the engine through all the varying conditions it will be under with use, allowance must also be made for the area/region of driving and weather conditions.

"VW 508.00/509.00

This specification combo (508.00 for petrol, 509.00 for diesel) requires a 0W20 viscosity, fuel economy oil with long life additives. These specifications are NOT backward compatible with the eariler VW specifications. Recommended for the new 2.0 TFSI 140 kW and 3.0 TDI CR 160 kW VW/Audi engines."

"VW 502.00

Oil for gasoline engines. Successor of VW 501.01 and VW 500.00 specification. Recommended for those which are subject to arduous conditions. It must not be used for any engines with variable service intervals or any which are referred to under other specifications." - https://www.oilspecifications.org/volkswagen.php

ŠKODA Genuine Engine Oils Volkswagen Group Standards -https://www.skoda-auto.com/other/oils-standards

VW engines are not cutting edge car engine designs, all car internal combustion engines are basically ancient technology with some refinements of build and materials and lots and lots of computer hard and software thrown at and on them to try to get yet again and again an nth degree more out of the engine's ancientness often to play around with fuel economy and emissions figures for governments and car buyers. Luckily the engine oils are advanced enough now to help with these aims and still protect the engines, unless the car/engine manufacturer's engineers make mistakes or have to make too many compromises with the design and build. That does not necessarily mean that the new oils with protect the modern design and builds of these engines for the engines to last as long as the previous engines with their (relative greater crudeness helping with their longevity.

If you as the car owner are only concerned about fuel efficiency that means perhaps compromise in other areas of performance of the engine, which may not matter to you if you are not keeping the car too long but will matter to you and future owners of the car in the perhaps more medium and long term of the car and engine life.

HTH.

Edited 16 March, 20251 yr by nta16

@nta16 Thanks for taking time to go through my query and then suggest your opinion.

Yes, your understanding about my vehicle is spot-on and yeah I want to put the correct engine oil in the engine as per designer's specifications. Fuel efficiency or longevity for me rates below the designer's specification for the engine. In fact, I trust the designer blindly for the fact that they are much more able than we customers to optimise the performance, fuel efficiency and longevity of the engines and hence their recommendations are paramount.

In India, call it unfortunate, Škoda doesn't responds to customer query through their HQ service / technical teams. In stead, they route all queries back to the dealers for answering. So ultimately, customers are left to whatever little knowledge dealers have (they are busy making money on mass servicing, without any concern about the effectiveness of the service) with them which usually is not so up-to-date and not scientific in nature.

My owner's manual suggests the engine oil grade as VW 502 which is quintessentially a 5W-40 engine oil. However, I suspect it could be an old printed (2020) owner's manual / not-updated by Škoda (may be) - and then it is further reinstated by the fact that a service bulletin (attached below) issued by VW in Jan'21 recommends VW 508 for 1 Ltr TSI 81 KW (DSHA engine). I could not find a 2021 printed owner's manual (one printed after the service bulletin) for Skoda Rapid NA India vehicle anywhere which could suggest VW 508 as a recommendation. The vehicle model was discontinued in Dec'21 in India. Hence, may be Škoda didn't bother to update it. After that, Škoda Slavia with 1 Ltr TSI 85 KW engine was launched in India which does get VW 508 Engine Oil recommended by Škoda. Same is true for Škoda Kushaq, Kylaq, VW Taigun & Virtus with 1 Ltr TSI Engines which were all launched after Skoda Rapid NA India was discontinued.

What I feel is, because of this laxity (or call it no interest to do so for a discontinuing model) by Škoda to update service teams about 1 Ltr TSI 81 KW (DSHA engine) - the engine oil usage of VW 502 is continuing still. There is no issue with the VW 502 as such, but what I feel is that VW 508 is a newer grade with low SAPS for GPF and has been co-engineered with 1 Ltr TSI by Škoda/VW only to be used in it - hence it is essential to use VW 508 only in 1 Ltr TSI.

What I am looking upon is that I get some sort of confirmation from Škoda or VW from Europe or from any of you guys too that VW 508 will not have any adverse effect on 1 Ltr TSI DSHA series engine and in fact is the designed spec. oil for that Engine. I am not getting enough resources from Škoda here in India nor anything such over the internet anywhere.

Hope I was able to clearly state my concern and hence seek a suitable response to it.

Thanks,

ERWIN 0W20.pdf

Yeap I get it.

To deal with generalisations first. Do NOT fully trust or fully expect that the VW designers, engineers and builders always get it correct or don't have to make and accept compromises. From what I have seen it looks like they have previously blamed oil for their possible mistake with a previous gearbox and have design, engineered and build mistakes that they don't admit to and leave their customers to face the consequences and costs. That is apart from dieselgate.

Their concern can be about getting, or appearing to, as low emissions and as high fuel economy as possible which gets harder and harder given previous gains and inherent limitations of the technology, build, price and marketing limitations.

As with other beliefs there are beliefs particularly about oils for cars and as with all beliefs some may be incorrect or totally wrong, you can choose which if any you want to go with, there is science but often that has very little or nothing to do with beliefs and the science can be wrong or incomplete or wrong applied or understood. And what works in a laboratory or with industry testing may get different results in real world use particularly over longer time and use terms.

Putting things in very basic terms (which is all I know about the subject and understand) "thinner" oil offers less resistance so less energy loss and more fuel efficiency but requires better engineering, build, materials to some extent complexities, those all come at a cost, including monetary cost and perhaps experience of meeting higher standards. If the oil is too thin then there is greater risk of wear and damage. VW don't care as long as the engine makes it past their longest car/engine warranty periods (car 2 or 3 years in UK, 7 years in Australia I believe for same car but in different market location) and past any marketing sales periods that won't affect current and near future sales too much.

VWŠkoda UK isn't much better or different in dealing with customers.

VW 502 isn't necessarily 5w-40, when searching a popular UK oil supplier for VW 502.000 engine oil a wide range of oil manufacturers. blenders types, qualities, prices and multigrades is shown, from 0w-30 to 10w-40 (I dismissed a 15w-50 as a possible mistake). - https://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-746-vw-50200-engine-oil.aspx

This brings up two other points, firstly all databases have errors and omissions, including car and oil manufacturers/blenders, you should (as you are now) always check and cross-reference any information you get from any source, particularly internet, even manufacturers websites. Secondly the grades, winter and other, e.g. 5w and 40 are ranges, one 5w can be "thinner" (or "thicker") than another 5w and wear at different rates and circumstances. Same for 40 grade weight (both are measured differently) and say for the 40 IF it started low ("thinner") in the 40 grade it might move from stated grade weight into 30 with conditions of use and wear.

Car manufacturers often change even the oil manufacturers they recommend based on commercial association and contracts as time passes, let alone VW changing their specifications for oil and coolant (another possibly design, build, mistake or compromise(s) made in earlier times).

Like you I couldn't get a downloadable copy of the Owners Manual for the 2021 Rapid from VWŠkoda's site, a bit strange or just one of those things, Sod's Law so you know when the car was built but do you know when the engine was built, a scan tool report perhaps showing dates of engine sensor and module date information or know what other models that particular engine went into (Škoda or VW, Polo perhaps) to look at which oil is recommended in those models' Owner's Manuals Or the pdf you put up has for model year 2021 508 takes immediate effect but not to use it in older engine generations and that the engines not suitable for 508 will have a "notice (lock/carrier engine compartment" telling you which oil to use, is the "lock/carrier engine compartment" the (bonnet) slam panel with sticker near the bonnet catch(?).

The problem with asking what other owners use is that most will not be in India, I'm not sure if we even have the DSHA engine here but it doesn't matter as UK is a different region and might have different market recommendations. The climate and driving conditions may well be different here, we get at extremes -20c to +40c here, I forget the humidity and other weather details but the climate and classification.

A better and/or higher quality oil in whatever specification and type of oil will offer greater margins of protection under more circumstances and for longer, that is not to say the oil VW . . . (more to come I pressed a wrong button, not meaning to post yet).

Edited 16 March, 20251 yr by nta16

2 hours ago, autliebe said:

What I am looking upon is that I get some sort of confirmation from Škoda or VW from Europe or from any of you guys too that VW 508 will not have any adverse effect on 1 Ltr TSI DSHA series engine and in fact is the designed spec. oil for that Engine.

The VW508 0W-20 C5 LL FS oil is recommended for The D series engines.

But this oil has less wear protection than the previous VW oils.

This is VW505 5W-30 C3 LL FS oil. This oil can also be used in the D series engines.

I have a VW UP with a D series engine in it which recommends the VW508 0W-20 C5 oil be fitted.

I got the VW dealer to fit it with VW505 5W-30 C3 LL FS oil at the first yearly service.

The VW508 0W-20 C5 oil has a potential for 2% better fuel economy over the VW505 5W-30 C3 oil.

But this is with the downside of worst engine wear.

There are two main differences between C5 and C3. In red below

1: C5 has a lower viscosity than C3.
2: C5 has a lower HTHS rating than C3 which increases the engine wear.
HTHS is the abbreviation for “High Temperature High Shear”. See below.

'ACEA C5 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Mid SAPS-Level, for further improved Fuel Economy, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable and OEM-approved for use of Low Viscosity Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.6 mPa*s.'

Car manufactures are tending to use a lower viscosity oil to improve fuel consumption.
But the improvement between C5 and C3 is listed as only 2% better.
I check fuel consumption so will notice any difference.
Since the biggest controller of fuel economy is 'the nut fitted between the steering wheel and the drivers seat' I tend to sort that out first.


'ACEA C3 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Mid SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s.'


HTHS viscosity
The HTHS value is a measure of the viscosity of an engine oil under demanding conditions. Defined limit values ensure that even with high-performance engines, the engine oils can maintain a tear-resistant lubricating film in the bearing area at high temperatures and high speeds (shear stability).
The unit for measuring HTHS is mPas (millipascal second). If the HTHS value is above 3.5 mPas, the HTHS viscosity is to be classified as normal. An HTHS value below 3.5 mPas is referred to as a reduced HTHS viscosity.

'SAPS stands for sulfated ash, phosphorus, and sulfur.'
You need a MID/LOW SAPS oil with an engine with any exhaust emission controls.

So to sum up:

• A lubricant with low HTHS viscosity improves fuel efficiency.

• A lubricant with high HTHS viscosity offers better protection for engine parts.

I keep my cars long term so I want long term engine protection first.

If you are in a hotter part of India I would go for the VW505 5W-30 C3.

Thanks. AG Falco

. . . A better and/or higher quality oil in whatever specification and type of oil will offer greater margins of protection under more circumstances and for longer, that is not to say the oil VWŠkoda recommends (Castrol?) isn't or won't be a good oil just that you can get better and I've never looked to see who provides oils for the VW labelled bottles, I don't even know if they sell their own labelled engine oils.

Engine oils are made up of the base oil and additives package both are important and to each other, the additives are mostly made by other manufacturers but can be made to specification for anyone that can afford it and to meet the various standards specifications and to vehicle manufacturers' specifications. In use one engine oil might be very good in one car and its circumstances and not quite as good in another car and its circumstances If they meet the specifications all should be good if used correctly and changed when required, some will just be a bit better in some circumstances and for longer than others but the gains may not be great unless additional strain(s) to them.

Do you drive using your oil temperature showing?

If you want to know more of the science and how it applies practically have a look at some of the videos from this (professional) chap. - https://www.youtube.com/@themotoroilgeek

Edited 16 March, 20251 yr by nta16

ETA: Just for info other car manufacturers use 0w-16 and 0w-12.

13 minutes ago, nta16 said:

I don't even know if they sell their own labelled engine oils.

Quantum:-

https://tps.trade/info/oil/the-quantum-oil-range

Thanks. AG Falco

Thank you.

Yes I've seen that before but forgot.

I usually just look at the SDS for name and address when the oil is under a different label.

I'll probably forget again though, not that it'll bother me too much because I'd forget I forgot. 🙃

VW Group are not Oil producers, Tyre or Wiper Blade Manufacturers, Glass Manufacturers or many other stuff that the vehicles need. As it is tyey sometimes buy into the places they procure components then try screwing them over.

0w 30 FS III so VW504 00 / 507 00 is just fine for fixed and vriable if not going to VW502 00 for Fixed oil change intervals.

Edited 16 March, 20251 yr by Ootohere

@Ootohere now you've put it up again I remembers seeing that 508 504 list before but don't know what year(s) it relates or starts from.

I don't know if you saw the following I posted earlier, those no date to it so I assume current or at least currently showing on this company's website (obviously with the usual provisos about information particular from the internet and manufacturers websites). - ŠKODA Genuine Engine Oils Volkswagen Group Standards -https://www.skoda-auto.com/other/oils-standards

Simples really.

VW Group just started putting in 0w 20 FS IV at the factory into most engines other than some TDI,s before they started having to get WLTP Certification. With 1.0 TSI,s it was about when they got GPF,s, the first ones had no GPF.

WLTP from September 2017.

It was not & is not Backward compatible. So really not pre 2017 / 18 engines.

Euro 6 engines were what we got from the end 2015, early 2016.

Edited 16 March, 20251 yr by Ootohere

5 hours ago, AGFalco said:

VW505

SB VW504

Thanks. AG Falco

18 hours ago, AGFalco said:

The VW508 0W-20 C5 LL FS oil is recommended for The D series engines.

This is the piece of information (and its official confirmation) that I am looking upon. Do you have any written document from VW stating this or is this based on your experience with VW Engines? It would be really good of you if you can share any VW published document about it.

On further research I have figured out that all the 1 Ltr TSI Engines (both 81 KW & 85 KW) engine codes start from "D". This is applicable to all the models VW & Škoda sell in India. Hence, it is imperative (based on your given information) that they will consume VW 508 00 which is 0W-20.

15 hours ago, Ootohere said:

VW Group just started putting in 0w 20 FS IV at the factory into most engines

If this is true for all Engines produced after the year 2017 (which I could relate to because - here in India, Škoda service cost calculator utility divides the models in terms of before and after 2017 - see the screenshot below) - then I am quite sure VW 508 00 is the oil to be used in DSHA engine without affecting normal functioning and in fact would be the best suited for this engine (as per the designed specifications).

@AGFalco @nta16 @Ootohere I am thankful to all of you for contributing towards an in-depth discussion on this issue which could help me arrive on to a conclusion.

@AGFalco if you could share a written document published by VW somehow, that will give further peace to me 🙂

About my preference of 0W-20 over 5W-40 / 5W-30 - I would again like to mention that I put my complete trust on VW designers and engineers. They have designed and developed such good products and technologies, I find no reason to not trust them for their Engine Oil recommendations (no offences to your POV too). As for the lesser engine wear protection with VW 508 00 I want to mention that 0W-20 has been developed for better engine protection than the previous generation oils. Moreover, a thin oil does not necessarily imply a lesser protection at higher temperatures because the oil is supplemented with a robust additive package which makes sure the oil holds its viscosity in extreme woking conditions of the engine. Also, in India, OE VW 508 00 oil sold by VW is manufactured by Shell in HongKong. This oil is made up of GTL (Gas-to-liquid) Base Oil manufactured in Shell's state of the art Qatar refinery. You may refer to it more here. But it is a much better engineered product. Hence until it is a Shell product, it could be trusted even more.

Nevertheless, I am looking forward to even more discussions on many other subjects pertaining to my Rapid in times to come.

Thanks,

Edited 17 March, 20251 yr by autliebe
Added a screenshot who's reference was given in the quote

In the expert chap's videos I put a link to it confirms the 0w-(IIRC) 20 oils are high quality and give very good protection but the oil isn't just the grade numbers it also has to be suitable for use as used.

I do not think you should put your complete trust in VW designers and engineers as they are humans and so make mistakes and they are also employed in their profession by VW who are a company that is a car manufacturer whose products are not faultless and the faults and mistakes are not always admitted to.

That is not to say they can't recommend the correct oil for their engines but fully correct to what measurement for who's benefit overall.

Shell's idea of using waste product should be applauded and it can be used to make a very good or excellent engine oil but as with all oils there is more to it than the base oil. -https://blog.amsoil.com/is-motor-oil-made-from-natural-gas-better/

Again that is not to say that Shell Helix Ultra isn't a good or very good or excellent oil.

VW seem to be making it a lot more difficult to establish what should be a clear cut answer, if some of their engines they recommend to use 0w-20 oil but others not then that information should be vey clear and widely made available.

Is the case VW want you to use 0w-20 or that it is best to use 0w-20 and best for who and when and for how long, is there an absolute need that 0w-20 must be used, none of that has been made clear to me but I can be a bit slow mentally - and yes I am cynical with VW given their past and how I have found the quality of my wife's 2015 VWŠkoda especially some of the parts quality. The German car marques generally have been able to rely on an outdated believe in "German engineering quality" being high when that relates just about generally to the last century.

I don't understand the worry about very small increases in full economy when most cars over here generally are mostly driven for short distances at lower speeds (not needing and wasting the then well overpowered engine power), all mostly with only the driver or one passenger in a modern heavy (particularly VWs) with oversized wheels and tyres. But I suppose any saving is better than none.

Be good to know the outcome to this 0w-20 though, keep going and letting us know. 👍

VW Group were and are only bothered about the WLTP Certification and they struggled to get some engines / models done in time.

As it is their old way of running diesels with some diesel in the engine oil was no longer possible when they ran the tests in their own facilities for VW, Audi & SEAT. Skoda were not implicated in the cheating that came following on from the Defeat Device Scandal.

That 'false emissions figures' meant they suspended some sales and had to buy back some early Euro 6 petrols and diesels.

Not all engines went to VW508 00 / 509 00.

Some Euro 6 VW Group diesels stayed with the recommended VW507 00 and 0w 30 FS III.

Quite a good choice for a TSI if you do not want to use 0w 20 FS IV. If you do want to then just do it.

You can lead a horse to water but you can not make them drink.

VWs choice of oil is governed by 3 factors:

1) What's good for the engine

2) What's good for efficiency and emissions

3) What's good to reduce oil change frequency i.e. servicing costs.

Once upon a time the choice would only have been based on (1) i.e. what's good for the engine.

However, in recent years VW, along with all the other manufacturers, have been under a lot of pressure to reduce emissions and increase efficiency. One way to do this (a very tiny amount) is to use thinner oil.

The other pressure is to appear to reduce the cost of ownership for the new car owner. One way to do this is to specify longer oil change intervals so the service costs appear to be smaller. They do this by specifying long life oil with long change intervals.

Both 2) and 3) are not necessarily in line with 1) in the longer term.

i.e. changing your oil more frequently will do no harm (except maybe the cost of oil & filters). The thickness is more dictated by your climate & usage.

BTW stop start traffic (i.e. normal traffic in most towns and cities) & dust is considered arduous usage!

Personally I'm using 5w30 API-SP rated oil (Mobil 1) changed every 5-6K miles, on my 2017 1.2 TSI . The SP standard has been developed for direct injection engines like the TSI. (see themotoroilgeek on Youtube).

YMMV.

Long Life oil & Variable / Flexible servicing intervals / oil & filter changes certainly can suit high annual mileage drivers. Fleet / Company Cars, leased, not Bought privately as a Keeper in many cases.

As far as Servicing Costs.

Go back in this section and the Fabia Mk3 being Car of the Year with Autocar / What car before any UK owners had them.

They drove them abroad, it was certain engine.

Not all Fabia Mk3 2015.

Then when Used cars later they ignored the 1.4 TDI issues, overheating. They were selectively deaf dumb and blind.

When they Compared the VW Polo with the same engine / drivetrain the MAGAZINES showed the Polo was a lower running cost.

Kidology, pure kidology. It was not about the Guesstimate on residuals.

Not taking into account the Same Service Schedule, recommendation, advice, guidelines and cost of identical consumables.

So what was it VW labour charge compared to Skoda Main Dealers services.

Edited 17 March, 20251 yr by Ootohere

43 minutes ago, torrent99 said:

1) What's good for the engine

2) What's good for efficiency and emissions

3) What's good to reduce oil change frequency i.e. servicing costs.

A good oil will cover all three, a better oil will cover better and perhaps more. With either oil I take thoroughness of oil and filter changes as being important too, thoroughness could also possibly slightly reduce frequency or give more margin(s) to point of change.

7 hours ago, autliebe said:

Do you have any written document from VW stating this or is this based on your experience with VW Engines?

Before the first service was due on my car, I looked in to the oils recommended for the car.

I rang TPS and asked them what oils were listed as suitable for my car.

They said that both VW508 & VW504 were good.

TPS are VW's parts company here in the UK:- https://tps.trade/

You give them the car VIN to look up any parts wanted so this is car specific information.

Because VW508 has less wear protection than VW504 I had VW504 fitted.

The VW dealer that did the first service had no problem with fitting VW504.

VW508 oil has a lower viscosity and was introduced to give better fuel consumption figures in the testing that any car needs to do, to be sold in the UK.

But this is a theoretical improvement of only 2% but at the cost of faster engine wear.

Since I keep my cars a long time the VW504 oil will benefit me later on.

The 0W part of the oil means that the oil will still flow freely at -40°

So if you live in a very cold area and/or are not wanting to look after the car long term then fit VW508.

I have not and will not fit VW508 to my car.

HTH

Thanks. AG Falco

16 minutes ago, AGFalco said:

Because VW508 has less wear protection than VW504

Oils are overall formula and actions so if you are just looking at the additive package ingredients it might appear that way but the oil overall in use may or may not give less wear protection you would need test results under reasonably strict conditions for real life comparisons. What's on paper and in theory is often very different to what happens particularly in real world use.

But I'm with you as I doubt VW make their engines good enough in the past and developed later for me to want to put a VW recommended 0w-20 oil in them now for normal UK use if I intended keeping the car too long out of warranty.

Time might tell, perhaps VW might in the future change their recommendation for these cars that are out of warranty and with age and use - or they might be fine as most people expect less from used cars and VW can blame previous owners, the sky or the moon, if the company is still going in its present form.

I'm sure your car will last well as you look after your cars so much better than most.

3 minutes ago, nta16 said:

Oils are overall formula and actions so if you are just looking at the additive package ingredients it might appear that way but the oil overall in use may or may not give less wear protection you would need test results under reasonably strict conditions for real life comparisons. What's on paper and in theory is often very different to what happens particularly in real world use.

On 16/03/2025 at 16:04, AGFalco said:

HTHS viscosity
The HTHS value is a measure of the viscosity of an engine oil under demanding conditions. Defined limit values ensure that even with high-performance engines, the engine oils can maintain a tear-resistant lubricating film in the bearing area at high temperatures and high speeds (shear stability).
The unit for measuring HTHS is mPas (millipascal second). If the HTHS value is above 3.5 mPas, the HTHS viscosity is to be classified as normal. An HTHS value below 3.5 mPas is referred to as a reduced HTHS viscosity.

It is part of the oil specification difference between C3 & C5 oils.

C3 is 3.5 mPas is a VW504 oil.

C5 is 2.6 mPas is a VW508 oil.

https://www.valvolineglobal.com/en-eur/understanding-oil-standards-acea-specifications/

Thanks. AG Falco

Sorry I thought you was talking about engine rather than oil.