VRS Burning oil

[JerryT]

I was asking about difference between VW502.00 & VW504.00 after reading this

http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/vw_motor_oil_specifications_explained.php

And it looks like VW502.00 is way worse than VW504.00... What is your opinion on this one Jerry?

As i am not totally familiar with the testing that goes on within the VW specs (and here i mean all the engine tests) they do look to be quite different. However, what i can say based on the evidence presented on that site is that whilst the 504 looks to be way in front of the 502 oil it must be considered what its intended use is for and that is long drain. therefore, over the life of the oil (assuming you do not need to make any top ups) is that they will probably work out about equal if you did double the mileage on equal amounts of oil. Having said all that i have just had a look at the approvals claimed for the Castrol Edge that i have been using and it is a 504 and i am still going through oil so i don't think this is the answer.

As to the point about long/extended drain why does the Polo GTi get this but the Skoda vRs doesn't (and for that matter other similar Skoda/VW models)?

[ChrisRs]

Did you have to have the oil consumption test carried out by the dealer (where they remove and weigh oil, run car for so many miles, remove and weigh oil again) before they would order the parts?

No..Wife told them it was using a lot of oil when it went in for its annual service today

[Norry]

Sry, don't get it.. lower tension piston rings?

Couldn't be a more simple explanation. You do, I presume, know how the rings work?

[Jabozuma]

Couldn't be a more simple explanation. You do, I presume, know how the rings work?

Enlighten me please, if you can spare a minute .

[Norry]

Enlighten me please, if you can spare a minute .

I think you are kidding me! Anyway ........

Well they spring outwards from the grooves in the pistons and touch the walls of the bore, some to prevent combustion gas blowing by and at least one to scrape the oil from the bore back into the sump. If the outward springiness is made weak to lower friction and thus improve engine efficiency then the may not do their proper jobs and the engine uses more oil.

[arnold]

Just a quick update after having the breather and ECU update a few days ago... So far so good and after 300 miles it hasn't used any oil as far as i can see. I will be keeping a careful eye over the next week or so and hopefully will report more good news. The only issue i can see is that if i go for the Remap in the new year this will upset the skoda update which ( fingers crossed) may be part and parcel of the cure.

[Jabozuma]

I think you are kidding me! Anyway ........

Well they spring outwards from the grooves in the pistons and touch the walls of the bore, some to prevent combustion gas blowing by and at least one to scrape the oil from the bore back into the sump. If the outward springiness is made weak to lower friction and thus improve engine efficiency then the may not do their proper jobs and the engine uses more oil.

As I thought, you'd better do some reading on how internal combustion engines work if you think that "spring outwards action" of piston rings can hold 1000psi pressure lol. There is plenty write ups on the basics to read on the net, enjoy:)

[Norry]

OK then you tell us what you think the rings are for.

The rings are in grooves that take the high pressure. The outward pressure of the rings allows them to do what I said.

If you don't know much about a subject you really should not comment.

Edited 21 October, 2012 by Norry

[Jabozuma]

No problem, I will leave the floor to you then. Post back what you learned when you actually did some reading on the subject. Not in the mood to type another lengthy lecture...

Edited 21 October, 2012 by Jabozuma

[Evil Miyagi]

Gents, please!?!

It's a forum for grown ups, not the school playground.

[Jabozuma]

Sry mate, shouldn't have commented at all, sucker for that bait I was, my young Padawn

[Norry]

Sry mate, shouldn't have commented at all, sucker for that bait I was, my young Padawn

Correct.

[Jabozuma]

Correct.

Just to be clear here. You Norry are talking straight out of your ar$e and are completely wrong.

[Norry]

Just to be clear here. You Norry are talking straight out of your ar$e and are completely wrong.

As I said before "OK then you tell us what you think the rings are for." and we'll see who is wrong.

[supsun]

Gents, please!?!

It's a forum for grown ups, not the school playground.

+1

[Norry]

As I said before "OK then you tell us what you think the rings are for." and we'll see who is wrong.

Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piston_ring

[Jabozuma]

I strongly suspect that all this oil burning problem is to do with the engine designers trying to reduce fuel consumption by reducing friction by fitting piston rings with lower tension so less friction against the cylinder walls.

The Wiki Brigade strikes again lol!

That was your original post.

To suggest that some fictional " lower tension springs" were fitted to "reduce fiction" clearly indicates rather casual (or complete lack of ) understanding of internal combustion engine workings and physics. To even think that "rings tension" or "spring action" has any contribution whatsoever in sealing the combustion chamber during power stroke is simply childish. Try to realise what 85Bar/1000psi means first, how much pressure that is?!? If ever fitted any piston rings and held any in your hand you'd know that your esteemed "springy action" can be played with using your fingers. At the aforementioned pressure your fingers would not only be crushed to molecule level pulp but also instantly vaporised due to high temperature under such pressurization. Yet you somehow think that the force of "the springy action" of the rings (which you can play with using your fingers) is sufficient to act against such massive force. You see the problem here?

Again, you never looked at a piston with rings fitted on it obviously. If you did you'd notice that the rings are smaller than the groves in the piston and move freely. Do you know why? You Wikipedia article hints at the important fact in one place using two words, see if you can spot it.

To save you the agony the reason for such a design is to make sure the combustion gases can "get between" the piston and the ring to push the ring downwards and against the bore and this is what seals it and makes any internal combustion engine work during power stroke.

Piston rings do not have "springiness rating". Difference between piston rings boils down to design of the two gap surfaces, what alloy rings are made off and type of coating they receive. First one is played with to achieve the best cylinder pressure, second one dictates thermal "creep" under load (how big rings grow under load, which dictates cold ring spacing requirement) and the third one modifies hardness and thermal properties as well.

The "springiness" of piston rings is there to provide some pressure retention during cranking. Race engines have it so insanely high that they high torque standalone motors to crank it. F1 engines are virtually seized when cold and need to have hot fluids circulated before they can be cranked.

To summarize rings have nothing to do with reducing the friction. If they were rubbing against the bore (other than during running in period) then you’d be in a lot of trouble. They “slide” on a very thin film of oil. Oil type used decides how much friction is there and also contributes to sealing of the cylinder – some say this is the most important factor.

Therefore your statement that fitting “piston rings with lower tension so less friction against the cylinder walls” is simply false.

That would be £150 for my time

[supsun]

Gents, please!?!

It's a forum for grown ups, not the school playground.

+1

yawn

[Jabozuma]

^^ Nobody forces you to read it here. Go and play with your LEGO if it bores you so much

[the mad monk]

i thought this was a thread about burning oil which many of us suffer from from please dont turn it into a my cokc's bigger than your cokc conterst

we just want to have a fix, i for one would be interested to know if the ecu was remapped would we lose the potential fix weve been given, i say potential as im still in the testing it out stage

[Jabozuma]

I think this is valid as discusses the way the machinery works and sheds light on the potential reasons engines are burning oil.

If you buy an off the shelf do it yourelf type of ECU Remap tool then yes, it will be gone. If you pay for a real tuner to tune your car they will remap the map you currently have on the car. So if you take it there for a remap with a new Skoda map installed then you will not loose it. Whne you go in for service again and there is another ECU updated to be installed this will wipe your remao and will have to go back to your tuner to do it again, which they may or might not charge for.

What oil are you using? 0W30, 5-W30, 5W40? The type of oil may have an impact on your oil usage if it is borderline. With large amount of oil wantonly used by your motor the problem is more serious i.e. bores are shot and new engine needs to be dropped in as no amount of breather pipe fixes, rings replacements and ECU updates will change it. Well, if you run it detuned to produce 120bhp or thereabouts then oil usage issue wil be cured potenatially.

Let us know hot it went with ECU fix on your machine.

P.S. as you can see I drive very small car

[supsun]

^^ Nobody forces you to read it here. Go and play with your LEGO if it bores you so much

One of the things I have always liked about Briskoda is the tolerance and respect that members generally show one another.

I just thought that those qualities seemed to be absent in this thread. But maybe that's just naive.

[ChrisRs]

One of the things I have always liked about Briskoda is the tolerance and respect that members generally show one another.

I just thought that those qualities seemed to be absent in this thread. But maybe that's just naive.

Overly aggressive IMO

I'm patiently waiting for my dealer to tell me what parts have been ordered, after they mentioned manifold

They certainly didnt mention piston rings or oil type either

[Jabozuma]

One of the things I have always liked about Briskoda is the tolerance and respect that members generally show one another.

I just thought that those qualities seemed to be absent in this thread. But maybe that's just naive.

I'd agree, so how would that place your post then - "yawn" ... rather constructive and REALLY adds to the discussion - you surprised at my comment?

When somebody shows up and spews factual bull$hit there is a choice to either leave it be (which I should have done), gently advise to read up on the subject (which was ignored and inflamatory attidute adopted) or do a write up, which I ended up doing...

Please note that I did not go into a typical flame war over anything involving one's family lineage etc - keeping it factual I do try.

[Jabozuma]

Overly aggressive IMO

I'm patiently waiting for my dealer to tell me what parts have been ordered, after they mentioned manifold

They certainly didnt mention piston rings or oil type either

probably you are right, SWMBO pi$$ed me off that day a little bit ...

Did you get any details or just a general comment from them?

I am posting here as I am really interested in getting to the bottom of this issue.