2013+ cannot be remapped

[999pooch]

He already new all of that

He does now // saved to back up file for cut & paste in future forums spats //

[trundlenut]

Just to wade in (wearing asbestos underwear)...

Unapproved/Unauthorised has nothing to do with legal/illegal. At worse unapproved work could result in civil action from the person who did not approve.

As to why ECUs are encrypted, it strikes me as the whole thing is financially led. I'm sure that most car manufacturers would give approval to a tuner to modify their cars provided they pay enough and sign in blood or give them their children. Then I suspect the cost for a remap would reflect this

Also the economies of scale are such that it probably makes financial sense to use very similar / identical components (or effectively whole engines) between variants of cars with different power outputs and use the ECU as a method of producing the power diffrerence. They then wouldn't want Joe Bloggs tuner coming along with his laptop and a cable and changing things. The selling price of a car is not a direct reflection of the manufacturing costs.

There are plenty of examples around where manufacturers require contractors/installers/service engineers to be approved in order to maintain guarantees etc. and in order to get approval the third party has to complete a course (which they have to pay for), pay for registration, use only original parts (purchased from the manufacturer at fixed rates) etc. Car manufacturers have always looked to try and limit sources of parts etc. How long is it since you had to have a vehicle serviced by an approved dealer in order to maintain the guarantee?

Also the analogy with devices such as smart phones or a PS3 is wrong. As others have said you pay for the hardware and licence everything else. When you buy a car (except for some electric vehicles) you get the whole thing. In this situation how is changing the workings of the engine ECU different from changing the brakes or suspension or other critical system?

[Wilko251088]

Back to the topic of 2013 cars that can't be remapped then? I'm all for useful discussion but it's not really fair for any future searcher to find all this lot when looking for a simple answer.

Shark, what performance gains are expected for a 143hp CR 2.0tdi?

[shark_90]

400Nm/175bhp expected from that.

[Jabozuma]

Wow that's a lot of techno-jargon lol!

I'd love to know what your background is Jabo and what you actually do for a living? Not having a pop at you or anything but just very curious as to if your apparent encyclopaedic knowledge is a result of a very good photographic memory and many hours put in searching the net or if you have any relevant professional qualifications or experience?

Might help to silence some of your doubters if you can fill us in!

Apologies for the "off topic" and no offence meant Jabo :-)

Furbytom, the thing is that I would like to discuss certain subjects on merit and not through qualifications/profession/eduction/tool size. Some people feel threatened by such approach, do not like to be questioned and react with arrogance and aggression. So be it, I am not that desperate or lacking in attention to keep pushing through that crap. I hope the new company policy of arrogant sanctimonious preaching will result in customers arriving in droves to be served such treatment should they dare to ask any questions they might not like.

I will better get back to my cornflakes and check my tyres.

[logiclee]

As to why ECUs are encrypted, it strikes me as the whole thing is financially led. I'm sure that most car manufacturers would give approval to a tuner to modify their cars provided they pay enough and sign in blood or give them their children. Then I suspect the cost for a remap would reflect this

Also the economies of scale are such that it probably makes financial sense to use very similar / identical components (or effectively whole engines) between variants of cars with different power outputs and use the ECU as a method of producing the power diffrerence. They then wouldn't want Joe Bloggs tuner coming along with his laptop and a cable and changing things. The selling price of a car is not a direct reflection of the manufacturing costs.

BMW already do this and offer their own M Performance upgrades. These are usually quite mild increases and cost several thousand pounds.

Then you have Alpina and AC Schnitzer who offer more, give their own warranties but will still require a couple of grand for the power increase.

Remember BMW sell a range of engines at different price points with different power outputs. In many cases the only difference is software. If they left an easy tune solution they would loose customers paying a few grand more for the higher powered version.

Cheers

Lee

[shark_90]

I don't feel threatened by you, and I'm amazed you managed to turn your own arrogance around and make out that I'm a bad guy.

Our customers and other forum members have (without provocation) clearly said that they like our no-nonsense, clear approach about tuning. What I think Mikko and I both struggle with is being challenged on things that just aren't relevant due to a fundamental lack of understanding of the subject matter. Questions are fine, challenging based upon assumptions or poor information simply isn't. Sorry if offence was taken but true to form, I was just telling it how it is.

I'm hoping the customers that do arrive aren't the ones who like to tell us how to do our jobs, but rather those who appreciate the time, effort and passion that we put into our work and trust that we probably know more about tuning cars than they do. Of course, if they didn't they'd do it themselves.

We naturally do have an affinity to the way we work, we invented it, and if a potential customer doesn't think that's right for them, then there's lots of other tuning companies that they can use. I suppose that could be seen as arrogance. I don't see it that way and a potential customer has that decision to make.

[vRSy]

Well said.

[trundlenut]

BMW already do this and offer their own M Performance upgrades. These are usually quite mild increases and cost several thousand pounds.

Then you have Alpina and AC Schnitzer who offer more, give their own warranties but will still require a couple of grand for the power increase.

Remember BMW sell a range of engines at different price points with different power outputs. In many cases the only difference is software. If they left an easy tune solution they would loose customers paying a few grand more for the higher powered version.

Cheers

Lee

I had a feeling BMW did and obviously it is priced in line with normal BMW pricing. Alpina and AC obviously have the turnover and customer base to allow them to offer their own warranties, but presumably don't do anything more on the tuning front than most people do but offer a whole car package on top.

[Brimma]

Our customers and other forum members have (without provocation) clearly said that they like our no-nonsense, clear approach about tuning. What I think Mikko and I both struggle with is being challenged on things that just aren't relevant due to a fundamental lack of understanding of the subject matter. Questions are fine, challenging based upon assumptions or poor information simply isn't. Sorry if offence was taken but true to form, I was just telling it how it is.

I'm hoping the customers that do arrive aren't the ones who like to tell us how to do our jobs, but rather those who appreciate the time, effort and passion that we put into our work and trust that we probably know more about tuning cars than they do. Of course, if they didn't they'd do it themselves.

As I've said elsewhere, you will never convince the unconvinceable, no matter how much reason you give, but, at the end of the day, who loses out?

[shark_tech]

As for the security measures in TC 1766 AUDO-NG family you are bound to know much more that I do being a pro Hex-Jockey. All I know those units are industry stalwarts shipped in a region of 100 million units so far. By their nature they need to be very flexible and well accessible but contain protection mechanism such as 32-bit password protected PFlash with on/off protection limit of four, ENDINIT and Watchdog Timer and as you say the correct bootloader (loaded from STADD 0xA0000000 i.e. external EBU hence the need to access the ECU I'd imagine) . The pinouts doc was just to show how it looks like, not all the members know and some might be interested.

One cannot do it through OBD II due to the traffic being encrypted using RS 1024bit protection. My comments re “dealers can do so you should be able to” was a bit tongue in cheek as it would need private keys or OEM kit “sourced”.

I also do understand your “annoyance/frustration” and branding my points as irrelevant or absurd for obvious reasons.

Ok. When you downloaded the TC1766 datasheet, you had to click "Yes" to the user agreement. That is a classic end-user license agreement. When you buy a car, you do not sign an agreement like that. Hence, there is no license applied to the data contained in the ECU you own. That is why there are no legal technicalities in modifying the calibration data stored within.

Also, I'm really sorry that I'm going to sound arrogant again, but you clearly have zero clue what you're talking about. WDT and Endinit are runtime modules protecting against programming error induced system crashes, or memory leaks to protected memory space. It has nothing to do with data protection as we're discussing here. The CRC checks are in the Bosch RTOS.

If you knew anything about Bosch ECU's in general, you would know that Bosch RTOS always executes as 0 User, so the Endinit "protection" is not active, since the running user is always the "supervisor".

The access to bootloader is not the reason we need to open the ECU. The "protected" bootloader is stored in the IROM/XROM, depending on the configuration and processor type (they're not all TC1766, mind you).

The main protection layer is in software, not hardware, on Tricore cars. Yes, some(TPROT8/10/11/12) have password protection active in the ECU, but that is a trivial level of protection.

[shark_tech]

As I've said elsewhere, you will never convince the unconvinceable, no matter how much reason you give, but, at the end of the day, who loses out?

You mean this is what happens, when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?

[vRSy]

Just as i thought

[Brimma]

Ok. When you downloaded the TC1766 datasheet, you had to click "Yes" to the user agreement. That is a classic end-user license agreement. When you buy a car, you do not sign an agreement like that. Hence, there is no license applied to the data contained in the ECU you own. That is why there are no legal technicalities in modifying the calibration data stored within.

Also, I'm really sorry that I'm going to sound arrogant again, but you clearly have zero clue what you're talking about. WDT and Endinit are runtime modules protecting against programming error induced system crashes, or memory leaks to protected memory space. It has nothing to do with data protection as we're discussing here. The CRC checks are in the Bosch RTOS.

If you knew anything about Bosch ECU's in general, you would know that Bosch RTOS always executes as 0 User, so the Endinit "protection" is not active, since the running user is always the "supervisor".

The access to bootloader is not the reason we need to open the ECU. The "protected" bootloader is stored in the IROM/XROM, depending on the configuration and processor type (they're not all TC1766, mind you).

The main protection layer is in software, not hardware, on Tricore cars. Yes, some(TPROT8/10/11/12) have password protection active in the ECU, but that is a trivial level of protection.

Mikko, I, and probably thousands of others, haven't got the faintest idea what you are on about

What we do have, however, is faith that you do know what you are talking about, because this is your job

You are not some Doubting Thomas who cuts and pastes from other people's writings, not understanding the content, but asking question, after question after question

Carry on doing what you know best, prove the doubters wrong which you do time, after time after time, and ignore the keyboard warriors who like to think they have a clue, but clearly haven't

This was a party political broadcast.............

[shark_tech]

Mikko, I, and probably thousands of others, haven't got the faintest idea what are on about

What we do have, however, is faith that you do know what you are talking about, because this is your job

You are not some Doubting Thomas who cuts and pastes from other people's writings, not understanding the content, but asking question, after question after question

Carry on doing what you know best, prove the doubters wrong which you do time, after time after time, and ignore the keyboard warriors who like to think they have a clue, but clearly haven't

This was a party political broadcast.............

I usually try to be as informative as possible on my posts, but Jabozuma makes comments that make zero sense to me, and that is why I struggle a bit to answer them in a non-condescending manner. To me, they make absolutely no sense at all (such as the Watchdog/Endinit copy paste from the datasheet, which is the first hit on Google when you search for that processor), so I cannot see the point and the actual question behind the words. It's the same as someone saying your Google Chrome browser doesn't work because you haven't hit 1000 points on Minesweeper on a Tuesday. What else can you say apart from "err, wtf?".

[Jabozuma]

Wow, that's a deluge! I still keep smiling under my 'tash, fun reading!

My arrogance, where, how? Where did I write I know everything about the numerous matters I raised? How many times did I write that you do know much more than me since that is your chosen job, and without coming across the way you did?

If I knew all about it would I be asking questions and wasting my time with you here? Do you actually understand a difference between a question and a statement?

Doesn't look like it.

Then consider this. When I came across this thread I thought I will participate as I have questions about “ECU tuning” and since people who do it for a living are participating as well I could perhaps get some answers and discuss with people who are as interested in the subject as I am and hopefully have more knowledge than I do. I also thought that this would run in the same way as if I made an actual trip to your grease shop and tried to have the same conversation I attempted here. How glad I am I did not go if I was to receive the same kind of arrogant, belittling and patronizingly pompous treatment I got from you, people who are supposed to be providing a good service to your customers, here on public forums. Congratulations!

Then imagine this. Instead of repeating ad nausea in every second sentence that I know nothing etc how do you think it would play out if you responded something like “you see, that is not how it works, general info is like …. But this particular BOSCH implementation is …. And we need to do …. To achieve ….” That could be easily done without spilling out trade secrets. Had you done so you’d make me into one of your staunchest supporters as there is nothing I (and perhaps others here) like better than have a nice, respectful, polite and informative discussion on the subject and learn a good few things on the way. Remember, I was asking simple questions in a very polite and none aggressive manner. You obviously read it as some sort of an attack, challenge or whatever and responded in an aggressive, contemptuous and snooty way. So be it. All it did was make me smirk (edited due filter) all morning .

Do you know what happens in the catering industry when people are very happy with their meal and service? They tell their friends, perhaps some work colleagues. What happens when they get a bad tummy and rude service? Whole town knows about it…

EDIT: s n i g g e r was filtered out

[Brimma]

To be fair, I think "the whole town" already knows what a good service they get at the establishment to which you refer (no names named to avoid accusations of bias and advertising)

I doubt whether the views of one uninformed dissenter will have a great bearing on that

Far from showing arrogance, I think Mikko is at the end of his tether trying to get his point over in the face of a barrage of non-questions

[shark_90]

Wow, that's a deluge! I still keep smiling under my 'tash, fun reading!

My arrogance, where, how? Where did I write I know everything about the numerous matters I raised? How many times did I write that you do know much more than me since that is your chosen job, and without coming across the way you did?

If I knew all about it would I be asking questions and wasting my time with you here? Do you actually understand a difference between a question and a statement?

Doesn't look like it.

Then consider this. When I came across this thread I thought I will participate as I have questions about “ECU tuning” and since people who do it for a living are participating as well I could perhaps get some answers and discuss with people who are as interested in the subject as I am and hopefully have more knowledge than I do. I also thought that this would run in the same way as if I made an actual trip to your grease shop and tried to have the same conversation I attempted here. How glad I am I did not go if I was to receive the same kind of arrogant, belittling and patronizingly pompous treatment I got from you, people who are supposed to be providing a good service to your customers, here on public forums. Congratulations!

Then imagine this. Instead of repeating ad nausea in every second sentence that I know nothing etc how do you think it would play out if you responded something like “you see, that is not how it works, general info is like …. But this particular BOSCH implementation is …. And we need to do …. To achieve ….” That could be easily done without spilling out trade secrets. Had you done so you’d make me into one of your staunchest supporters as there is nothing I (and perhaps others here) like better than have a nice, respectful, polite and informative discussion on the subject and learn a good few things on the way. Remember, I was asking simple questions in a very polite and none aggressive manner. You obviously read it as some sort of an attack, challenge or whatever and responded in an aggressive, contemptuous and snooty way. So be it. All it did was make me smirk (edited due filter) all morning .

Do you know what happens in the catering industry when people are very happy with their meal and service? They tell their friends, perhaps some work colleagues. What happens when they get a bad tummy and rude service? Whole town knows about it…

EDIT: s n i g g e r was filtered out

You ask where your arrogance is? Read your post again, perhaps there's only you who can't see it.

I won't be participating any further in this, your apparent aim is ironically to act in exactly the way you're attempting to chastise me for.

If you would like to know more about tuning and the intricacies if the process, may I suggest you open a new topic to save this one from being even further detracted.

[Jabozuma]

Agreed, no point urinating in the wind.

EDIT: It is not my place to chastise anybody. I am simply very dissapointed as I held very high hopes for you guys...

[Jabozuma]

You ask where your arrogance is? Read your post again, perhaps there's only you who can't see it.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/arrogance - to help you out

[vRSy]

Jabo can you give this a rest now, it was amusing at first to see you making an fool of yourself, however its now becoming cringe-worthy and frankly really boring as im sure many other will agree. Evidently, it appears you are a clever bloke, and have the ability to read and digest information, but alot of what you post has no relevance in the matter and is plain and simple just blurb. Its not needed on this forum and I agree with Shark, there is alot of arrogance in what you post and they way you post it.

Shark have come on here and answered more than they needed to. They have no reason or requirement to answer to you and tbh, i bet they regret even humoring you with a response now. They don't just proclaim to know what they are doing, they actually do this for a living as do the other tuners. Why should they have to answer to to a forum warrior who answers every question with another question and bases all his knowledge on google research. The way you go on, im surprised your not working as a consultant for Brembo, VAG and some other top end organisation responsible for the production of every element of automotive engineering.

[Jabozuma]

I thought I just did? see #144

I am also eternally grateful for being humored, I should perhaps frame some rsponses just to keep me grounded in the future.

I promise not to use Google, or any other search engine for the purpose of finding published specialist reference matrials, ever!

I should also apply for the posts as advised.

I will also run all my post past you in the future so you can cast your wise eye over them and decide whether "they are needed on this forum"

Anything else I can do for you poppet? A foot massage perhaps?

*sigh*

Relax, why so serious? I was just asking question and NOT questioning anybody... If an act of asking a question is an arrogance then I am as guilty as hell!

[vRSy]

I thought I just did? see #144

I am also eternally grateful for being humored, I should perhaps frame some rsponses just to keep me grounded in the future.

I promise not to use Google, or any other search engine for the purpose of finding published specialist reference matrials, ever!

I should also apply for the posts as advised.

I will also run all my post past you in the future so you can cast your wise eye over them and decide whether "they are needed on this forum"

Anything else I can do for you poppet? A foot massage perhaps?

*sigh*

Relax, why so serious? I was just asking question and NOT questioning anybody... If an act of asking a question is an arrogance then I am as guilty as hell!

And that response i would class as arrogant.

[Jabozuma]

EDITED as I gave it a rest!

[mannyo]

Right, reading through this thread its plainly obvious that we are now going round and round in circles and thus the thread has drifted way off the original topic. For now this is being locked again, and when we mods have time we will try and tidy it up again. I don't have time at this moment, since I am at work.