double de clutching... Good or bad?

[Ryeman]

With modern gearboxes there is no need due to syncromesh so why do it? Double de-clutching means you will be free wheeling in neutral, which is bad practice IMO.

So you don't use the clutch?

[speedsport]

I'm starting to wonder if some of the contributions to the topic have different interpretations of double de-clutching. (Please don't think I'm criticising anyone in particular, this is just an observation)

 

Double declutching is normally used when changing down the box.... say you are on 4th and want to drop to 3rd.

You press the clutch pedal in on a constant or trailing throttle (ie not accelerating), put the gear lever into neutral, release the clutch, press the clutch in again, increase the revs slightly to what you think the lower gear will require, select 3rd gear and release the clutch pedal. If you've done it right, there is no change in engine speed as you release the clutch.

The problem with this is that the whole process takes a fair bit longer than just changing down and matching engine speed to the lower gear before releasing the clutch - which in my book is a far more sympathetic way of driving. Double de-clutching means you're having to press the clutch twice as may times just to achieve something that the synchromesh is designed to do by itself.

 

There most certainly is a place for double de-clutching in a vehicle with a crash box, but in a modern car you would be effectively coasting for a time with no gear engaged - which isn't a good idea.

 

Some posts match my description, but I'm not sure all do. And I still don't see any point pressing the clutch the extra times, when sympathetic matching of engine speeds is what is actually required.

 

Incidentally, successful healing & toeing is an excellent way of making quick down changes whilst braking at the same time, but VW Group electronics don't like you doing it and on many cars wont let you blip the throttle whilst braking.

Edited 6 January, 2015 by speedsport

[Llanigraham]

Quite, John.

 

And you can't left foot brake and keep the power on either!!

[Ryeman]

It's a sad day indeed when tech means those who CAN.....

CAN'T.

[littleade]

So you don't use the clutch?

Yes I do - sorry if I've caused any confusion. I depress the clutch, change gear, match the engine revs with the throttle to the road speed when changing down while I'm doing so, then release the clutch.

[Ryeman]

Yes I do - sorry if I've caused any confusion. I depress the clutch, change gear, match the engine revs with the throttle to the road speed when changing down while I'm doing so, then release the clutch.

Ok, but WE spin the 'box' up to match with the second application and when done correctly there is no wear on the synchros.

It's an acquired skill that only come from constant application.

So now we have the final nail in the joys of driving a manual......how long before they do away with the steering wheel too?

BMW have now released a car that, with your phone app, will drop you off at the shops entrance, take itself off and park itself, then when summoned by your app, will pick you up again outside the entrance.

Oh dear, time for me to check out......

[StevesTruck]

Only time I ever do is in the polo (synchros ****ed on 2nd, has been since I bought it), or if struggling for power getting a heavy van up a hill. Certainly no point on a modern car, except to keep your hand in.

Getting properly into the dark arts, if I'm driving a sprinter, most of the time I can rev match and hardly use the clutch if at all after 2nd. Transits tend to need the clutch to disengage, but will happily engage on a rev match.

Although I probably wouldn't it I owned the van.

[VWD]

Some of us learned to drive in the era of non-synchro first gear.  Double-declutch going down - or blush at the noisily demonstrated incompetence.....

 

And with a three-speed box (really!), first gear was not just for moving off. 

 

Grief!  I do feel old sometimes. 

So do I - my first ( second and third) had no -synchro  on first ). My first had lost -synchro on second. So changes down needed double decclutch or miss a gear. Mine were all four gear cars. I still do it today - select first when speed fals to zero ,and it never fails.

[littleade]

You lot...... next someone will suggest we start drilling holes in our front bumpers and getting a starting handle to save wearing the starter motor out......

[Ryeman]

You lot...... next someone will suggest we start drilling holes in our front bumpers and getting a starting handle to save wearing the starter motor out......

Ah you youngsters, I don't know!

You'd appreciate the BMW, with phone app, that drops you off at the shopping centre entrance, goes off and parks itself then when 'summoned' picks you up at the same location?

Would that be regarded as 'progress' to you?

How long before there is no steering wheel?!

[jonceebee]

You lot...... next someone will suggest we start drilling holes in our front bumpers and getting a starting handle to save wearing the starter motor out......

Yes   and if you want to go back and live in the 1950's why not carry a set of points, condenser and distributor cap in the boot just for the fun of it. It would certainly confuse any prospective new owner

[33q]

Dragging this further off topic......I still carry a tool kit

[Ryeman]

Dragging this further off topic......I still carry a tool kit

A potentiometer? :-)))

[littleade]

Ah you youngsters, I don't know!

You'd appreciate the BMW, with phone app, that drops you off at the shopping centre entrance, goes off and parks itself then when 'summoned' picks you up at the same location?

Would that be regarded as 'progress' to you?

How long before there is no steering wheel?!

er no, no and hopefully never though removing the steering wheel from SWMBO car would make life safer for everyone but busier for me until technology caught up.

BTW I see from your avatar that you're the one with a DSG box, no me LOL! Me I believe in the old saying if you want something doing properly, do it yourself.......hence 6 speed manual.

[littleade]

Yes   and if you want to go back and live in the 1950's why not carry a set of points, condenser and distributor cap in the boot just for the fun of it. It would certainly confuse any prospective new owner

Sorry but I was still in shorts and was waiting to go to infants school then! My only car had no boot and pedals.....

[Ryeman]

...........

BTW I see from your avatar that you're the one with a DSG box, no me LOL! Me I believe in the old saying if you want something doing properly, do it yourself.......hence 6 speed manual.

Ahhhh, if only swmbo could drive a manual I'd have been able to indulge myself.

But, being a left foot braker, the DSG does have its upside, at least for me.

[g6zru]

I used to double declutch going down to first gear on my first car, a three speed side valve 100E Ford Anglia, don't I have never done it since. Do you remember those vacuum windscreen wipers, especially uphill !

Mine never went up hills.  

 

Fred

[Brijo]

Did anyone say that they remember non-synchro boxes (whether this was by design or accident) with any degree of preference?  For myself, they were a fact of life when I was learning to drive (and for not a few others here, too).  Yes, some boxes did lend themselves to clutchless changes - up and down - and it was almost an initiation rite to prove you could handle one without too much noise!  But, just like cross-ply tyres, they are history in the everyday motoring world.  

 

Until the Yeti, though, I did enjoy the satisfaction of a slick, nicely-timed manual shift and it was only (mainly) the occasional slur, suggesting an imminent left-knee problem, that prompted the move to an auto box while the going was good.  For my money (and there was quite a lot involved!), the DSG does what I would do most of the time.  I have the assurance that I can override it, without pain to me or the gearbox, and there is some satisfaction in using that option properly. 

 

Ultimately, a car is only a means to get from one place to another.  Horses for courses, you get what you want (or can afford), time marches on etc etc.  But for me DSG Yeti is the best of many, that has possibly been kept until last. 

[weasley]

If you want to go old school, the DSG is effectively an automated pre-selector 'box. I never had the 'pleasure' but I know my gran used to drive one.

Edited 7 January, 2015 by weasley

[Sporky McGuffin]

Ah you youngsters, I don't know!

You'd appreciate the BMW, with phone app, that drops you off at the shopping centre entrance, goes off and parks itself then when 'summoned' picks you up at the same location?

Would that be regarded as 'progress' to you?

How long before there is no steering wheel?!

 

Not sure about the lack of steering wheel, but a car that buggers off to park itself sounds grand. It's not that I'm not good at parking, it's that it isn't much fun compared to most of the other things I could be doing instead.

[magic62]

It is all about rev matching, and if you match you will wear less. 

But you will have to do it properly. Depress clutch, put it in neutral, match the revs, depress clutch and put it in lower gear.

Easiest when you have the ability to heel and toe (not all pedals are positioned for that).

 

Braking into a corner (at a track day) and double declutching will make the car less instable.

 

And if you have the feel for this, you wont need a clutch other than for taking off  :p

[g6zru]

Did anyone say that they remember non-synchro boxes (whether this was by design or accident) with any degree of preference?  For myself, they were a fact of life when I was learning to drive (and for not a few others here, too).  Yes, some boxes did lend themselves to clutchless changes - up and down - and it was almost an initiation rite to prove you could handle one without too much noise!  But, just like cross-ply tyres, they are history in the everyday motoring world.  

 

Until the Yeti, though, I did enjoy the satisfaction of a slick, nicely-timed manual shift and it was only (mainly) the occasional slur, suggesting an imminent left-knee problem, that prompted the move to an auto box while the going was good.  For my money (and there was quite a lot involved!), the DSG does what I would do most of the time.  I have the assurance that I can override it, without pain to me or the gearbox, and there is some satisfaction in using that option properly. 

 

Ultimately, a car is only a means to get from one place to another.  Horses for courses, you get what you want (or can afford), time marches on etc etc.  But for me DSG Yeti is the best of many, that has possibly been kept until last. 

Totally agree. Three speed "Crash" boxes were the norm when I learnt to drive. I remember that there was industrial action going on at the time by the "red flag walkers" who had recently been made redundant.

We didn't know any different than to double declutch so it became a habit that stayed with me for many years.

My "boy racer" days are long gone but one thing I find with the DSG it that I'm long gone from traffic lights without any excess effort until the aforementioned "boy racers" find top gear and pass me!

And that's in "D" not "S".

 

Fred

[countryboy]

 

My "boy racer" days are long gone but one thing I find with the DSG it that I'm long gone from traffic lights without any excess effort until the aforementioned "boy racers" find top gear and pass me!

And that's in "D" not "S".

 

Fred

By which time Fred, you are at the next set of lights and can do it all over again whilst performing the following emoticons. Priceless :moon:   

Ian

[MajorTom]

I don't double-declutch but then I never need to drive a lorry, van, tank etc. I do rev-match as I beleive in mechanical sympathy, even if Colin Chapman didn't. I have learned that smoothness usually equals quickness, both in winter and on the track. Upset the car, and you're either in the ditch or the armco...

[Spaced99]

I've always found that it makes for a smoother drive, especially if pushing on. Goes along with some heel & toe, very useful on the track.