help settling argument - DSG behaviour

[Lee123]

I borrowed my superb to my brother-in-law a few nights ago to do a run to Birmingham and back.  Upon return he tells me that he thinks there is something wrong with my gearbox in normal drive mode.  Everything is perfect in sport mode.

 

He says "sometimes, not all the time, it changes gear too early" which he feels is over labouring the car.  I tried to explain to him that

A. It adapts to your driving style, so if you have used the brake or accelerator harder, for the next few seconds it will hold the revs longer, and that

B. When it changes gear "too quickly" it's trying to save fuel.  But he's just not getting it.  On driving it home last night under normal driving conditions it would change gear at between 2 - 2.5 (and return to 1.5 every time in new gear).  I have noticed on occasion it will dip below 1.5 to nearly 1... but it is rare and only under certain conditions  (of which I will have to test and get back to you).

 

Normally I would dismiss this completely, however he's not an idiot.. he was a car mechanic going back 10+ years ago.  And I'm hoping he just doesn't know too much about DSG.

He also stated that when stationary in drive and lifting foot off of brake pedal the car creeps forward, saying that this is not normal either... now that is something I don't know about.

 

So what is the norm?  Is he right?  Is my DSG setup wrong?  Or is this the way it's supposed to be?  Personally I have had no problems with it at all, I love the way it reacts when you're coasting and jumps into play when you put your foot down.

[StuartTunstall]

I suspect it is normal... I have always used "D" mode, and have noticed from day one that it does change up very quick if you drive at a steady pace... If you accelerate harder it holds the gears a little longer... 

 

If I pull away from a junction it can be in 3rd in a blink of an eye... I can be doing 1000RPM at some stage before it changes down again... 

 

"S" mode is designed to change up and down later... 

 

What you need to remember is a DSG gearbox in NOT and automatic gearbox... it is a manual gearbox that uses electronics to change for you... 

 

But changing early/quickly does sound normal from my own experiences

 

Stuart

[philbes]

The DSG in my car behaves exactly as you describe and so did the other car I test drove before purchasing mine.  However, I think the lowest revs I have seen when the car is moving has been around 1250rpm.

[Lee123]

Just as I suspected.  But what about creeping when you lift foot off the brake?

[StuartTunstall]

Mine does that as well... in fact that is almost the same as a conventional automatic.. my old Ford Granada auto, if I lifted my foot off it moved forward, think they all do.. 

 

Only difference I have noticed is a conventional auto will seem to hold you on a slight hill until you touch the accelerator, were the DSG will still roll back... 

[silver1011]

I think your brother is wrong. DSG will still creep when you lift off the brake in D.

[StuartTunstall]

I think your brother is wrong. DSG will still creep when you lift off the brake in D.

 

As I say I think the only time I have noticed it will not is if I stop on steepish hill, it will roll back which my old Granada seemed not to... other than that it does "behave" like a conventional auto...  

[Lee123]

Thanks for the answers guys... after thinking logically about it, technically being a manual..it's not a wonder that it will creep forward... and doing a bit of reading on the vw forum too it seems it's definitely a design feature. 

 

Thanks again guys... I'll wave this in his face :p

[StuartTunstall]

I think part of the problem with "old school" people/mechanics is they think DSG is an automatic gearbox... when in fact it is a manual gearbox with gear changes controlled for you electronically.. 

 

In fact if I put mine in the registration look up at work it comes back as a "semi-auto" 

 

[Juhagpl]

The creeping in D is a kind of simulation. That is written also in some of general descroption of DSG in the internet.

Technically i am not sure how they solve. I think the oil dsg is not sensitive for this kind of clutch sliding.

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[Wile7]

It sounds to me like your DSG is spot on (as much as you can from a forum post )

The car will creep when in 'D' on any DSG or automatic if you don't use the foot/hand brake.

The DSG box in standard 'D' mode is a lazy unit and moves up quickly through the gears making it seem labouring or slow to the uninitiated (primarily for economy but also to aid traction and avoid wheel spin when slippery I imagine)

You can reset the 'learnt' driving style of the DSG and re-train it by driving it differently (i.e accelerating harder) but the ecu will adopt to your style of driving over time. It can be frustrating though....

[Guest]

I am on my 4th 170 DSG, your box is quite normal. The latest DSG in my 2014  Superb is far superior to the very first, they sem to have made many small updates. As to creep at tick overe again this is normal with the DSG, the clutches are only fully disengaged in D when the footbrake is applied, this is why stopping at lights etc for short spells is ok. and will not harm the clutches, holding in D with handbrake on does not fully disengage the clutches and is not recomended. I also wish people did not call them Automatics they are not they are a manual type of unit, that works in a simillar way to the old epicyclic pre engage units used on old Daimlers when you manually changed the next gear you wanted on a small steering column control,  pushed the pedal in the normal clutch position in and out quickly and the box changed gear. DSG is changed by the electronic unit, floppy paddles or the gear shift. Retired MV Tech.

[StuartTunstall]

I also wish people did not call them Automatics they are not they are a manual type of unit, 

 

Exactly what I stated above...  

 

I think this is were "old school" mechanics get confused, as you say it is not an automatic but, to put it in basic terms a "posh manual that changes gear for you" Lol 

[wokwon]

I borrowed my superb to my brother-in-law a few nights ago to do a run to Birmingham and back.  Upon return he tells me that he thinks there is something wrong with my gearbox in normal drive mode.  Everything is perfect in sport mode.

 

He says "sometimes, not all the time, it changes gear too early" which he feels is over labouring the car.  I tried to explain to him that

A. It adapts to your driving style, so if you have used the brake or accelerator harder, for the next few seconds it will hold the revs longer, and that

B. When it changes gear "too quickly" it's trying to save fuel.  But he's just not getting it.  On driving it home last night under normal driving conditions it would change gear at between 2 - 2.5 (and return to 1.5 every time in new gear).  I have noticed on occasion it will dip below 1.5 to nearly 1... but it is rare and only under certain conditions  (of which I will have to test and get back to you).

 

Normally I would dismiss this completely, however he's not an idiot.. he was a car mechanic going back 10+ years ago.  And I'm hoping he just doesn't know too much about DSG.

He also stated that when stationary in drive and lifting foot off of brake pedal the car creeps forward, saying that this is not normal either... now that is something I don't know about.

 

So what is the norm?  Is he right?  Is my DSG setup wrong?  Or is this the way it's supposed to be?  Personally I have had no problems with it at all, I love the way it reacts when you're coasting and jumps into play when you put your foot down.

 

 

Yep, if the car feels like it's laboring, either the driver has never driven a diesel before or they're driving like a granny and the gearbox responds in kind.  When I first got mine it would get into 6th gear just below 60km/hr.  After it lived with me for a week it then wouldn't do it until closer to 70.  

 

The way it works is this:  There is both a short-period and long-period adjustment* **, based on PID-type maths.  The short-period adjustment works over seconds/minutes to handle things like changing from flat to hilly terrain or stop-n-go traffic to normal flow.  The long-period adjustment works over a much longer period (hours to days) and learns your pedal inputs and what is normal for you.  This is the learning bit that people notice when they gearbox has been reset (as per the 60,000km service) that the car drives so differently after the reset.

 

DSG creep is built in for a few reasons, to make starting off smoother, to more closely limit the slushbox automatic feel, to make parking and low speed maneuvers easier.  It's not a big deal with the wet clutch box but the early dry clutch (7-speed) boxes tended to overheat in heavy traffic ("STOP: Gearbox Temp" message in the MFD).

 

* There are other inputs as well, including: pitch sensors (from the ABS/TC system) to detect hill ascent/descent and the kick-down switch built into the pedal.  The DSG also responds to the rate of change of the pedal, i.e. how violent the movements on the pedal are.  If you make rapid twitchy movements of the pedal the DSG will assume that you're in 'performance driving mode' and respond accordingly, prioritising output over comfort and smoothness.  Some people who come from a slushbox (which tend to smooth over the twitchy pedal inputs) complain that the DSG is rough but what's really happening is that the DSG is better at translating what the driver is actually asking for into output.  

 

I think part of the problem with "old school" people/mechanics is they think DSG is an automatic gearbox... when in fact it is a manual gearbox with gear changes controlled for you electronically.. 

 

In fact if I put mine in the registration look up at work it comes back as a "semi-auto" 

 

Capture.JPG

 

It is an automatic gearbox, because it changes gears automatically.  It's just not a "torque converter planetary automatic gearbox" also known as a 'slushbox'.  

 

For a real debate:  A CVT is not a gearbox because it contains no gears (e.g. a variator on a scooter).  Discuss.

 

--------------------------

 

** RE Short and long order learning algorithms.  These are not really learning as such, read this page on PID.  The real difference is time scale.  

 

Another example is the electric power steering on the VAG cars.  This also contains a short and long order adjustment.  

 

The short-order adjustment accounts for gusty winds and poor surfaces.  If the car starts to yaw or crab (detected by the accelerometers and gyros) with no steering input, then the short order algorithm detects this and applies a steering force in the opposite direction to counter this.  

 

The long-order algorithms the same but operates over minutes.  This detects, for example, a large side-wind pushing the car across the road or a significant road camber..  This is detected by noting that the driver is applying a constant steering force on the steering wheel but the car is not yawing.  The system then applies the force using the electric steering motor, which means the driver doesn't need to anymore. This reduces driver fatigue.  

 

The same system can apply heavy and obvious forces (called driver steering recommendation) in an emergency situation to encourage the driver to make steering inputs under ABS or ESP activation.  It won't actually steer the car but you can definitely feel the force in the steering wheel encouraging you to steer in a certain direction.

Edited 12 July, 2015 by wokwon

[Danny 57]

Not a very comprehensive answer is it. He he he. Sorry no emicons.

[numskull]

I suspect it is normal... I have always used "D" mode, and have noticed from day one that it does change up very quick if you drive at a steady pace... If you accelerate harder it holds the gears a little longer... 

 

If I pull away from a junction it can be in 3rd in a blink of an eye... I can be doing 1000RPM at some stage before it changes down again... 

 

"S" mode is designed to change up and down later... 

 

What you need to remember is a DSG gearbox in NOT and automatic gearbox... it is a manual gearbox that uses electronics to change for you... 

 

But changing early/quickly does sound normal from my own experiences

 

Stuart

From my fairly limited experience of the DSG, I'd say it's normal. I was amazed how fast the box operated on the up and downshifts on the CR170 I had for a couple of weeks. The fast up shift is to save fuel I have no doubt. If you're concerned and for peace-of-mind, get your dealer to check it out but I think it'll be their opinion too...

[Juhagpl]

Does anyone knows where can i order a dsg knob? I only found 4x4 version on the plate.

Thanks for advise!

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[StuartTunstall]

Yep, if the car feels like it's laboring, either the driver has never driven a diesel before or they're driving like a granny and the gearbox responds in kind.  When I first got mine it would get into 6th gear just below 60km/hr.  After it lived with me for a week it then wouldn't do it until closer to 70.  

 

The way it works is this:  There is both a short-period and long-period adjustment* **, based on PID-type maths.  The short-period adjustment works over seconds/minutes to handle things like changing from flat to hilly terrain or stop-n-go traffic to normal flow.  The long-period adjustment works over a much longer period (hours to days) and learns your pedal inputs and what is normal for you.  This is the learning bit that people notice when they gearbox has been reset (as per the 60,000km service) that the car drives so differently after the reset.

 

DSG creep is built in for a few reasons, to make starting off smoother, to more closely limit the slushbox automatic feel, to make parking and low speed maneuvers easier.  It's not a big deal with the wet clutch box but the early dry clutch (7-speed) boxes tended to overheat in heavy traffic ("STOP: Gearbox Temp" message in the MFD).

 

* There are other inputs as well, including: pitch sensors (from the ABS/TC system) to detect hill ascent/descent and the kick-down switch built into the pedal.  The DSG also responds to the rate of change of the pedal, i.e. how violent the movements on the pedal are.  If you make rapid twitchy movements of the pedal the DSG will assume that you're in 'performance driving mode' and respond accordingly, prioritising output over comfort and smoothness.  Some people who come from a slushbox (which tend to smooth over the twitchy pedal inputs) complain that the DSG is rough but what's really happening is that the DSG is better at translating what the driver is actually asking for into output.  

 

 

It is an automatic gearbox, because it changes gears automatically.  It's just not a "torque converter planetary automatic gearbox" also known as a 'slushbox'.  

 

For a real debate:  A CVT is not a gearbox because it contains no gears (e.g. a variator on a scooter).  Discuss.

 

--------------------------

 

** RE Short and long order learning algorithms.  These are not really learning as such, read this page on PID.  The real difference is time scale.  

 

Another example is the electric power steering on the VAG cars.  This also contains a short and long order adjustment.  

 

The short-order adjustment accounts for gusty winds and poor surfaces.  If the car starts to yaw or crab (detected by the accelerometers and gyros) with no steering input, then the short order algorithm detects this and applies a steering force in the opposite direction to counter this.  

 

The long-order algorithms the same but operates over minutes.  This detects, for example, a large side-wind pushing the car across the road or a significant road camber..  This is detected by noting that the driver is applying a constant steering force on the steering wheel but the car is not yawing.  The system then applies the force using the electric steering motor, which means the driver doesn't need to anymore. This reduces driver fatigue.  

 

The same system can apply heavy and obvious forces (called driver steering recommendation) in an emergency situation to encourage the driver to make steering inputs under ABS or ESP activation.  It won't actually steer the car but you can definitely feel the force in the steering wheel encouraging you to steer in a certain direction.

 

 

1. A direct-shift gearbox (German: Direkt-Schalt-Getriebe), commonly abbreviated to DSG, is an electronically controlled dual-clutch multiple-shaft manual gearbox, in a transaxle design – without a conventional clutch pedal, and with full automatic, or semi-manual control.

[Devon Wanderer]

Does anyone knows where can i order a dsg knob? I only found 4x4 version on the plate.

Thanks for advise!

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This one?

[Juhagpl]

This one?

Thanks! I need the same but left hand drive. I missed to write it.

This price would be good...

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[Devon Wanderer]

Thanks! I need the same but left hand drive. I missed to write it.

This price would be good...

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Here's one; more expensive, though

[Phil-E]

Sounds normal to me.

 

On a light throttle mine changes gear at 2000rpm which takes the revs to about 1500rpm. It will drop the revs lower in situations where you slow down and then don't apply too much pressure to the throttle. Never dropping below about 1200rpm.

 

The creep is also normal. The 6 speed gearboxes has lubricated clutches so while the car is in D the clutch is partially engaged. The clutches are nothing like a normal manual gearbox. They are made up of many layers of clutch plate rings and metal rings;

 

[laujen]

Interesting reading these comments about creep and hillstart. I have had my Superb 1.8TSi for about 6 weeks now and have driven automatics before that and assumed that it would be the same with the Superb. Ie If I'm at the lights and in drive and take my foot off the brake it dos creep forward which I just naturally assumed was normal but if I'm on a slope and take my foot off the brake and i don't hit the gas quick enough it does sometimes roll back. So what should i do in this situation put my handbrake on and release as I hit the gas ( although I think someone in this thread advised against using the handbrake).

 

I also find that pulling away from standstill seems a bit sluggish through 1st and second gears. Definitely don't feel like it could give me a super clean getaway. But once you put your foot down the change through the rest of the gears is super smooth. Is this normal also vs automatic?

[jonathan.tong]

The creep is also normal. The 6 speed gearboxes has lubricated clutches so while the car is in D the clutch is partially engaged.

 

 

So.... if I'm stationary for a while there is a benefit to select Neutral? There's definately a difference between N and D-with-foot-on-brake.....

[Danny 57]

Sounds normal to me.

 

On a light throttle mine changes gear at 2000rpm which takes the revs to about 1500rpm. It will drop the revs lower in situations where you slow down and then don't apply too much pressure to the throttle. Never dropping below about 1200rpm.

 

The creep is also normal. The 6 speed gearboxes has lubricated clutches so while the car is in D the clutch is partially engaged. The clutches are nothing like a normal manual gearbox. They are made up of many layers of clutch plate rings and metal rings;

 

Looks more like a motor bike clutch.