For the last time, yes a mk4 R32 might be faster than a mk4 GTI, who cares. You were the one who stated that "any Haldex car will not help during fast cornering", all I did was state was my back to back experiences of a 4WD R Golf &2 WD version GTI..eg 4WD compared to 2WD in the same car type & down the same roads/conditions,

 

Today we are in 2016 and your mk4 experiences have nothing to do with how the mk7 R competes against a Megane RS or Leon Cupra or GTI Clubsport.....Never said a MK4 Golf R32 is like that, so don't know where you get this idea from?? Mind you I have driven a MK7 R.

 

that all have the advantage of a proper front diff during fast corners. Faster than the ones you can take on a public road, just read about it, accept it and spare us. I do know about front diffs & modern tech has improved things, mind you a good Quaife or pelequin was always a good retro-fit to older cars

 

If you haven't driven another fast FWD car since 2002 there's nothing I can do about it. WTF?? I never mentioned 2002... confused???

 

I have driven a few of them, as well as the R and without saying the R is a bad car, far from it, some of today's top FWD are just more capable during corners. until they try doing it down our back roads in anything other than totally dry roads & then they usually they end up in the ditches,

 

Yeah I know back in your good old mk4 you were showing FWD's who's the boss, happy for you, can we move on? again WTF???

 

Yes, those videos, lap times, reviews pretty much everything was rigged to favour the Cupra over the Golf R. I heard it was part of the big FWD world conspiracy.  Paranoid are we???

 

After all SEAT are the big guys who are pulling the strings. We both know none of that FWD nonsense is true, mk4-5-6-7-8-9 R is king under all conditions and circumstances. Anything to keep you happy.....again WTF??

 

 

 

Seriously get a grip....2WD on a track is very good, & loads of 4WD cars are made into 2WD (RWD) for track use as faster for track use than 4WD (basic facts & very old facts), BUT out here in the real world on roads like I have, a 2WD will lose because you need to spread the power down to all four wheels because in real life the roads are not smooth, dry, nicely swept tarmac.....

 

 

I do hope you decide to keep up with an R down a nice twisty back road in normal weather....hope you have good rescue cover...

Seriously get a grip....2WD on a track is very good, & loads of 4WD cars are made into 2WD (RWD) for track use as faster for track use than 4WD (basic facts & very old facts), BUT out here in the real world on roads like I have, a 2WD will lose because you need to spread the power down to all four wheels because in real life the roads are not smooth, dry, nicely swept tarmac.....

 

 

I do hope you decide to keep up with an R down a nice twisty back road in normal weather....hope you have good rescue cover...

 

It's me who needs to get a grip here? This thread is about the Clubsport, which is built exactly with a more track-focused approach than any other Golf while still managing to remain a daily driver to whom it may concern. Taking this into account why the hell we're discussing low traction b-road driving over track performance? It's like jumping on a Land Rover thread saying yeah but it's not the best on a track. But even there, on a dry day, with such a sorted chassis and suspension and the E-VAQ working wonders, I don't think the R will vanish. Am I wrong? There will hopefully be some reviews on such roads and we'll see how easy or not it will be for the AWD car. I say modern sports FWDs are not just capable on the track. The Cupra I test-drove twice never failed to amaze me.

 

By the way, the Haldex limitations I described be it on a track or a public road exist, it is just how the system is designed. Anyone with a basic knowledge of AWD systems will confirm that. Next time you begin to understeer just keep on the throttle firmly then expecting the rears to come to the rescue. Seriously, no, don't do that or you'll end up driving off. The rears can't get you back in line in that situation. Haldex has its advantages in several situations but getting you faster around corners compared to a proper diff is not one of them. Don't try to make this a Haldex is good or bad debate, I am very specific in my comment.

 

A last note: All the b-road driving in the world can't get close to even 1/10 of the experience of driving the same car on a track flat out. I thought I had seen all about sports driving by doing hill-climbs where I used to live 4 years  ago and I don;t mean proper closed-road hill-climbs. Until I hit the track for the first time. To put it this way, the level of information and the experience you acquire compared to any "sane" fast driving on any public road is beyond compare, simply because you know you can really  push as much as the car's limits will allow.  Instead, you said "a track? FFS" and suggested racing on public b-roads with inexisting safety measures, alongside possible pedestrians, bikers, passing animals and idiots driving just as fast as you on the wrong lane. And I am the ricer here? I rest my case.

Edited 27 April, 201610 yr by newbie69

This thread is about the Clubsport, which is built exactly with a more track-focused approach than any other Golf while still managing to remain a daily driver to whom it may concern. Taking this into account why the hell we're discussing low traction b-road driving over track performance? It's like jumping on a Land Rover thread saying yeah but it's not the best on a track. But even there, on a dry day, with such a sorted chassis and suspension and the E-VAQ working wonders, I don't think the R will vanish. Am I wrong? There will hopefully be some reviews on such roads and we'll see how easy or not it will be for the AWD car. I say modern sports FWDs are not just capable on the track. The Cupra I test-drove twice never failed to amaze me.

 

By the way, the Haldex limitations I described be it on a track or a public road exist, it is just how the system is designed. Anyone with a basic knowledge of AWD systems will confirm that. Next time you begin to understeer just keep on the throttle firmly then expecting the rears to come to the rescue. Seriously, no, don't do that or you'll end up driving off. The rears can't get you back in line in that situation. Haldex has its advantages in several situations but getting you faster around corners compared to a proper diff is not one of them. Don't try to make this a Haldex is good or bad debate, I am very specific in my comment.

 

A last note: All the b-road driving in the world can't get close to even 1/10 of the experience of driving the same car on a track flat out. I thought I had seen all about sports driving by doing hill-climbs where I used to live 4 years  ago and I don;t mean proper closed-road hill-climbs. Until I hit the track for the first time. To put it this way, the level of information and the experience you acquire compared to any "sane" fast driving on any public road is beyond compare, simply because you know you can really  push as much as the car's limits will allow.  Instead, you said "a track? FFS" and suggested racing on public b-roads with inexisting safety measures, alongside possible pedestrians, bikers, passing animals and idiots driving just as fast as you on the wrong lane. And I am the ricer here? I rest my case.

 

You started this particular $h1t storm by quoting my post  where I stated "an R in race would whip a 2WD (clubsport) on my back roads".....you took umbrage with that & started going on about how fast & better it was on TRACK & posting videos & talking about journos who had driven it & the R on track.

 

Personally there are those of us who are more concerned with driving it on roads & never visit a track, & yes it (clubsport) will be slightly faster than the R because any 4WD version is usually slower than high powered 2WD around a race track.(I previously mentioned the 4WD supercars get converted to 2WD (Rwd) for track use).

 

As for diffs etc, having serviced a few Haldex units & have worked on cars for over 20yr & mainly VAG cars, my mates into rallying, & one of whom taught me some advanced road driving because he was a test driver for Peugeot Rally team, then went on to work for Mitsubishi & ended up helping design/built the Ford Focus factory rally cars. Me & him would spend ages doing car stuff & he use to rally on his own time also in 2WD & 4WD, & did one of the hardest (1000 lakes) up your way. Some of my other mates do the local rally up here (Snowman). So I think I know my way around a car & 4WD systems....

 

Take a look a the Tarmac sections on the next big car rally tours, strange that the 4WD cars seem to get around pretty quickly through the corners, hang on those are public roads also...so would it give a good indication of which car would be better in real life (away from a track).

 

This is what I mean by back country roads:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@57.2680322,-3.4470732,3a,75y,255.54h,87.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sD6kLg_h6PbMIvDzVIQXfAA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DD6kLg_h6PbMIvDzVIQXfAA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D155.29175%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

 

The A939...a main "A" classification road & one of the many "Best Drivers roads in the UK" which is local to me. As you can clearly see nice smooth tarmac, wide carriage way, nice smooth radius turns, low gradients, (sections of this road are 20%)...LOL.. BTW this is a rare "good dry sunny day".

 

As for "public road racing" I don't & didn't advocate it, guilty conscience on your part?

 

If I drive "fast" I never take race lines around corners, & never do stupid speeds on the straights...it's all about going smoothly through the corners without throwing the car around which means setting it up properly. Like they teach people on a skid pan with the upside down dish on the bonnet & a tennis ball in the dish, ball has to stay in the dish...Go look at some of the fasted "star in a car" laps on TG & usually they are the ones that look the slowest as they are so smooth...smooth means more speed carried through the corner, doing that when the road is basically corners/twist & turns for mile after mile makes a huge difference to the time & average speed....

 

Track driving is all well & good, but it be a good road driver takes huge amounts of skill which is underestimated. I just wish people would stop treating road driving as "armchair"...because I see it regularly when they do this on our "backroads"...& they end up in the nearest ditch, hedge etc...& that is what will happen in a clubsport compared to an "R" IMHO which is what I originally stated, & is relevant to this thread for people who might have an "R" & wonder if they should swap it for a Clubsport....

 

However you stated that  "PS. Driving dynamics aside, the design of the Clubsport alone was enough to sell it to me over any GTI or R.""...which really says it all in my book...

Edited 28 April, 201610 yr by fabdavrav

We do know the difference when you have the Front Wheel Drive Golf or Leon on a track against a Part Time AWD Golf on the same tyres.

Weight, fat lump AWD system that does nothing if the Part Time AWD car has grip anyway.

Same applies usually where the 'Road' is good and the traction is good.

 

We know there are AWD Rally Cars & 2 Wheel Drive Rally cars in their classes, 

and funnily 2 Wheel Drive can do rather well due to 'Just add Lightness'.

Fit the appropriate rubber, and at times where there is no Traction or little, then less action of the kind you want.

 

It is all basic stuff, more weight needs more power and more brakes and more weight and on and on.......

 

Edited 28 April, 201610 yr by GoneOffSKi

...

 

Seems like nice years indeed. But a pity really that you spent so much time servicing them and hanging around with your buddy, and yet never got a clue what Haldex is good at and what isn't at the end. Let alone the technical part, what rear wheels are doing around a corner and whether it's a nice idea to rotate them at the same speed as the fronts is rather high-school geometry. Still you're convinced that it provided you with lateral force, I could/should have stopped right here.

 

You confuse power down at a corner exit (Haldex=Good) with max speed around a corner (Haldex=Bad / locking diff=Good). Rally cars racing on every possible surface need and have both. EVO and WRX have a proper permanent AWD system with front and rear diffs. As such, they offer max traction and at the same time they can help you maintain more speed around corners by transferring torque to the outter wheels when you need it. New Focus RS achieves the same but using twin clutch packs on both sides on the rear axle. Both those cars would probably be quicker than a FWD. But the part-time AWD diff-less system that a Golf R uses is nothing like them. The only advantage it offers is that it puts the power down better when the fronts are slipping. So the only scenario for it to be quicker is to be driving much slower than the cars cornering limits will allow  so that it never has to enter understeer (like you better do on a public b road as you say) then slamming your foot past the apex, that's it. Yes it will be quick but where is the driver involvement in that? A monkey could drive that way with little training but if this is your perception of driving excitement we are clearly speaking a different language. I definitely won't buy a 30K performance car for the sole purpose of putting my fut down a bit earlier on public road corner exits. But, up the pace (like on a track) and you'll start to see where the problems lie. I realize you must have never done that and I also accept that for most drivers this is as fast as they'll go in their lifetime and dont give one feck what happens on a circuit. And I definitely agree that for them a R is a better choice. Friends? I think it's the ideal car for people that can't or don't want to (no probably can't) be properly involved with driving and they just want a way to plant their foot and go without much thinking, indifferent in investing in the development of their skills and understanding of how cars drive and how you can get the most out of them.

 

 

Last and most important point: You either are not aware or deliberately choose to ignore that handling and dynamics (otherwise called driver involvement/fun) is primarily about: suspension, chassis, balance and weight. If we were to compare the R against the Clubsport on this aspect (which was never my intention anyway) I think we ought to take into account that the Clubsport has a tigher chassis, stiffer suspension, quicker steering, and a whole 100kg off its back compared to the R. You still believe that on a dry day and on medium tarmac with the only wheel-spin happening on corner exits it would be behind the R? I doubt it. Here's a hint from the EVO guys who did just that, their impressions on the Cupra on roads similar I believe to the ones you crave (16:22 in the video):

 

 

Still not convinced?

Edited 28 April, 201610 yr by newbie69

Look around the metal.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SbLPfgvHRUA

Look around the metal.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SbLPfgvHRUA

 

 

My oh my, that's beautiful  

 

Did you mean the P Zeros?

. Still you're convinced that it provided you with lateral force, No never said that & I do know the technicalities so what you posted was wasted space...

 

. If we were to compare the R against the Clubsport on this aspect (which was never my intention anyway) I think we ought to take into account that the Clubsport has a tigher chassis, stiffer suspension, quicker steering, and a whole 100kg off its back compared to the R. You still believe that on a dry day and on medium tarmac with the only wheel-spin happening on corner exits it would be behind the R? I doubt it. See below

 

My point has always been that the MK7Clubsport on my "backroads" will get its arse whipped by a MK7R in normal/average conditions, explanation below:-

 

Even driving within the speed limit for the road, a lot of the corners on the before mentioned back roads you have difficulty in breaking that limit due to the corner tightness, adverse camber etc, etc...most are 25-45mph bends, you have water run offs, loose surfaces, colder shaded areas, everything in fact even in summer! How often do you get perfect conditions for a FWD to beat a 4WD car up here?...maybe a couple of days a year??....

 

Going back to when I did a back to back between a MK4GTI & MK4R32, the GTI would under extremes lift the inside wheel, which can be helpful to get the car around a tight corner, however you are putting more force on the front outside wheel, so "all eggs in one basket" with regards to grip/lateral force. The extra weight in the rear of the R32 stopped this happening & kept the wheels in contact with the road, then you can drive the rear wheels with the torque transfer from the Haldex....therefore I was able to drive the car around the corner faster than the GTI. The new MK7R has a way better Haldex & way lighter front end (lighter engine) so even better than old MK4R32 which has nose heavy because of the 3.2lt V6

 

Back to today..

Clubsport in 3dr manual=1375kg,

GTI 3dr PP manual=1382kg

R 3dr manual=1476kg

 

So the weight difference is all in the 4WD system & that is mainly towards the back of the car, which will stop the rear inside wheel lifting (which of course no car magazine not even EVO has ever supplied photographic proof on an open public road...cough cough.)

 

That extra weight in the R keeps the rear wheels down & enables the 4WD system (Haldex in this case) to transfer torque to those wheels, enabling you to drive the car around the bends faster in all normal conditions.

 

That rear wing on the clubsport might provide more downforce to compensate for the lack of rear weight, but at what speed do you need to be going for it to be effective? Usually 50mph +++

 

Yes it is basics, that on a perfect dry road you can flick the FWD car around & a light weight rear is advantageous for this as you can "unsettle" it easily, ok until you suddenly hit a damp/loose/etc patch & you then leave the road & exit into a ditch/hedge/wall etc 

 

If you like to flick a lightweight FWD car around & lift the inside rear wheel then I personally would get a smaller car, much better suited to the job in hand, which is why I loved my old Fabia down those backroads....like being pulled down the road by an over enthusiastic puppy...However in my 20+yrs of driving these roads the bigger & more powerful the car the better it is to have 4WD. If you have light weight & 4WD then even better, one of my mates had a P1 with all the factory options & tuned, absolute beast down those roads, corners were treated like straights, sooo capable....soo licence shredding...

 

Anyway VAG allowed Seat to experiment to see what could happen with a fast MQB car & if it might sell, then when it set the fastest FWD time at the ring they had to make certain a VW badge was on the front...welcome to the clubsport... 

 

Yes the Clubsport is set up for "track" (therefore not road/rally), however it is marketing BS with the clubsport IMHO as most track/lightweight/clubsport editions usually rip the rear seats out, fit half cages, carbonfibre the roof/bonnet etc etc, just look at numerous Renaults, Minis, Fiat 500, Hondas, Porsches, seen the new BMW M4???

 

Don't worry now as VW will offer a "Special" even faster version of the clubsport now:-

 

http://www.topgear.com/car-news/first-look/gti-clubsport-special-most-powerful-vw-golf-ever

 

See what I mean about marketing BS?....Maybe cancel your deposit for the clubsport & order one of these if you want the fastest around the ring badge/whatever?....

Edited 28 April, 201610 yr by fabdavrav

Look around the metal.

Another:

Edited 28 April, 201610 yr by vrskeith

ClubspoertS Track day

Unfortunately,still no R400 !?

 

Edited 28 April, 201610 yr by vrskeith

My point has always been that the MK7Clubsport on my "backroads" will get its arse whipped by a MK7R in normal/average conditions, explanation below:-

 

Even driving within the speed limit for the road, a lot of the corners on the before mentioned back roads you have difficulty in breaking that limit due to the corner tightness, adverse camber etc, etc...most are 25-45mph bends, you have water run offs, loose surfaces, colder shaded areas, everything in fact even in summer! How often do you get perfect conditions for a FWD to beat a 4WD car up here?...maybe a couple of days a year??....

 

Yes it is basics, that on a perfect dry road you can flick the FWD car around & a light weight rear is advantageous for this as you can "unsettle" it easily, ok until you suddenly hit a damp/loose/etc patch & you then leave the road & exit into a ditch/hedge/wall etc 

 

Well it is absolutely fine with me If you want to set (or rather limit) your proving ground absolutely as a road with water run-offs, loose surfaces, colder shaded areas as you say etc. then yes any AWD would cope better. Does it affect me personally or the rest of the world that is not living near these roads? Not by the slightest of chances. Would I go pushing my car on doubtful road conditions hoping that AWD will save my ass every time? Absolutely not. Are most reviews done in such conditions to evaluate a car's driving? Again a big no as what would be the point other for the minority that lives there. You know there's life outside Scotland or even the UK right?

 

In my eyes, and I believe in most peoples, the basis for any half-decent road test is at least a decent tarmac otherwise you just can't get anywhere near the cars limits in order to evaluate it so again, what's the point? When you buy such a focused car you basically want to provide it with the best possible conditions so that it can reward you, not try to throw it in the worst possible route expecting the worst to happen. What you are describing is like getting a race horse and trying to make the most out of it running around your back garden. Very useful indeed.

 

 

My idea of a nice back road is similar to the ones shown in that last EVO video, a decent tarmac, dry weather and let the fun begin. That was were they said that nothing can easily lose that Cupra remember. I am fortunate enough to have a few roads like these around me (although not so close) and from my travels, I believe most people living in the suburbs of any central and southern European country do. I am most than certain that on such a road which is far more representative of the typical sub-urban EU road, any properly set-up FWD would be quicker than the heavy R, as it would be all about chassis balance and quick direction changing. Glad that you agreed to that already.

 

 

As for the rest, yes VW was probably jealous that SEAT did it so well ( I wrote this elsewhere) so wanted to do the same, after all they provided all the materials didn't they? Why do you say it as if it's something bad? I think it was an excellent idea as you could finally get the sorted chassis in a daily driver, but with typical VW quality and residuals instead, win-win. Remember how the Cupra was almost everyone's favorite a while ago as it was the best fun you could get your hands on while still use it to drive the kids at school? 

 

Also, no interest whatsoever to a stripped out version that substitutes rear seats for a roll-cage, that's stupid. I doubt anyone who is after a dedicated track car will take a second look at the S when you can build RWD/AWD oldies with half that money.

 

We might be getting somewhere with this finally...

Edited 28 April, 201610 yr by newbie69

ClubspoertS Track day

Unfortunately,still no R400 !?

 

 

 

The R400 is as good as dead I read somewhere, although with the engine and turbo in the R and Clubsport you can get to those 400ps easily.

 

As per the Clubsport S it is rather pointless imo. Too similar to the Clubsport to ruin the car's practicality and live with a track-only car. 20kg lighter and stiffer springs? Are you kidding me? I would expect serious changes like 100kg off and at last a proper brake kit, then yes, it would be of some appeal, but again not for a daily driver so not a direct comparison/competition to any 3d/5d hatch.

Edited 28 April, 201610 yr by newbie69

 

Well it is absolutely fine with me If you want to set (or rather limit) your proving ground absolutely as a road with water run-offs, loose surfaces, colder shaded areas as you say etc. then yes any AWD would cope better. Does it affect me personally or the rest of the world that is not living near these roads? Not by the slightest of chances. Would I go pushing my car on doubtful road conditions hoping that AWD will save my ass every time? Absolutely not. Are most reviews done in such conditions to evaluate a car's driving? Again a big no as what would be the point other for the minority that lives there. You know there's life outside Scotland or even the UK right?

 

In my eyes, and I believe in most peoples, the basis for any half-decent road test is at least a decent tarmac otherwise you just can't get anywhere near the cars limits in order to evaluate it so again, what's the point? When you buy such a focused car you basically want to provide it with the best possible conditions so that it can reward you, not try to throw it in the worst possible route expecting the worst to happen. What you are describing is like getting a race horse and trying to make the most out of it running around your back garden. Very useful indeed.

 

My idea of a nice back road is similar to the ones shown in that last EVO video, a decent tarmac, dry weather and let the fun begin

 

Conversely there is life outside of Sweden...

 

Unfortunately ALOT of drivers & magazines come up here & those shots of the wide tarmac bits, are short EU funded bits, you ought to see the roads leading to some of them!! Over the past 20+yr of living up here with these roads you can tell what is the latest fastest whizz bang car as they appear like a rash in summertime. Most of the FWD & RWD versions that locals buy get sold shortly after & people go back to 4WD versions, I see way more Golf R, Evo, Scooby, etc etc than any other fast hatch type all because 4WD is better up here on these roads. I see more R than GTI up here on the roads, owned by locals.

 

Yes I love these roads as they require great skill, & yes it is like "rally" at times, but what fun!

Conversely there is life outside of Sweden...

 

Unfortunately ALOT of drivers & magazines come up here & those shots of the wide tarmac bits, are short EU funded bits, you ought to see the roads leading to some of them!! Over the past 20+yr of living up here with these roads you can tell what is the latest fastest whizz bang car as they appear like a rash in summertime. Most of the FWD & RWD versions that locals buy get sold shortly after & people go back to 4WD versions, I see way more Golf R, Evo, Scooby, etc etc than any other fast hatch type all because 4WD is better up here on these roads. I see more R than GTI up here on the roads, owned by locals.

 

Yes I love these roads as they require great skill, & yes it is like "rally" at times, but what fun!

 

Sure, If it's as bad as you say I can see the thinking behind getting an AWD up there, not disagreeing on that.

 

But seeing the bigger picture and given that the Clubsport is not making it to the US (too much fury from US buyers by the way) but stays Europe-exclusive, it is only fair to rate it under better (dryer, grippier) road conditions isn't it? Nor Sweden's or Scotland's for the most part. I've lived in 4 different European countries in the last 10 years and I had managed to find nice rather isolated very low traffic back-roads for my weekend's drive in each one of them (acceptable asphalt and not rainy weather for the most part). When I get the Clubsport, I will be dying to go back to each one of them and try it out as it would be as ideal an environment as it can get outside a track. Given that there's not such roads very near me now, I'm afraid I'd have to turn to my nearby track more often than I've done so far meaning: more often than the budget would otherwise allow...

Edited 28 April, 201610 yr by newbie69

Sure, If it's as bad as you say I can see the thinking behind getting an AWD up there, not disagreeing on that.

 

But seeing the bigger picture and given that the Clubsport is not making it to the US (too much fury from US buyers by the way) but stays Europe-exclusive, it is only fair to rate it under better (dryer, grippier) road conditions isn't it? Nor Sweden's or Scotland's for the most part. I've lived in 4 different European countries in the last 10 years and I had managed to find nice rather isolated very low traffic back-roads for my weekend's drive in each one of them (acceptable asphalt and not rainy weather for the most part). When I get the Clubsport, I will be dying to go back to each one of them and try it out as it would be as ideal an environment as it can get outside a track. Given that there's not such roads very near me now, I'm afraid I'd have to turn to my nearby track more often than I've done so far meaning: more often than the budget would otherwise allow...

 

Nearest track to me is a long, long, way away....

 

If you have a nearby track which you use for speed/driving & want a "one car solution" for everyday driving & track driving then a good FWD car like the clubsport is a good choice for an "off the shelf" buy.

 

However for the cost of a new Clubsport I wonder if a sorted used GTI would not be better as you could fit adjustable suspension for road/track, lighter wheels, strut bracing, better bushes, proper diff, etc etc...

Edited 28 April, 201610 yr by fabdavrav

Nearest track to me is a long, long, way away....

 

If you have a nearby track which you use for speed/driving & want a "one car solution" for everyday driving & track driving then a good FWD car like the clubsport is a good choice for an "off the shelf" buy.

 

However for the cost of a new Clubsport I wonder if a sorted used GTI would not be better as you could fit adjustable suspension for road/track, lighter wheels, strut bracing, better bushes, proper diff, etc etc...

 

That's precisely what I was after for  my next car. The most track focused still daily driver I could get for that amount of money. But at the same time I was also after some more refinement and quality than the one found in the Fabia I ran for the last 5 years, like highway cruising quietness for a start. And it just had to be the EA888 mk3 which has strong performance and even stronger potential, that automatically ruled out the GTI new or used. One thing I didn't want to have to touch was the steering and suspension, some things just have to be right from factory or they'll never be right for you, got bad experiences on that one. And spending that amount of money I wanted to feel I'm inside something that bit special. Not Type-R kind of special but something that gives a slight yet clear idea of what it is about. Build quality wise the R was great, but I struggled to find anything standing out in the interior compared to a lesser variant and for the flagship model that it is, for me it didn't feel right. Needless to say discovering the Clubsport seemed to magically tick all of my boxes. But I've written all about it on another thread already, let's keep this one clean.  :p

Edited 28 April, 201610 yr by newbie69

That's precisely what I was after for  my next car. The most track focused still daily driver I could get for that amount of money. But at the same time I was also after some more refinement and quality than the one found in the Fabia I ran for the last 5 years, like highway cruising quietness for a start. And it just had to be the EA888 mk3 which has strong performance and even stronger potential, that automatically ruled out the GTI new or used. One thing I didn't want to have to touch was the steering and suspension, some things just have to be right from factory or they'll never be right for you, got bad experiences on that one. And spending that amount of money I wanted to feel I'm inside something that bit special. Not Type-R kind of special but something that gives a slight yet clear idea of what it is about. Build quality wise the R was great, but I struggled to find anything standing out in the interior compared to a lesser variant and for the flagship model that it is, for me it didn't feel right. Needless to say discovering the Clubsport seemed to magically tick all of my boxes. But I've written all about it on another thread already, let's keep this one clean.  :p

 

Any car I get I know I might remodel, I have done too many things to my car which IMHO should be factory fit...I was looking at fitting a full VWR suspension setup to my car before I ordered it due to the test drive of the diesel variant & other reports all with the same "crashiness" of the front suspension. For some reason the petrol variant does not have this problem as I found out when I got mine which saved some money!! I would have thought a second hand MK7 GTI with a remap etc would be a good call for cost? Have you seen "Pacific Germans" GTI race car build on MK7 forum, you don't have to go as extreme but you get the idea for mods..

 

VW as always fits poor brakes to its cars & yet the Seat & Audi versions get better brakes with lighter & better callipers. I wonder if the Clubsport "Special" with get the Leon pack brakes?  

 

The only other thing I wish they would do is fit proper flat bottom undertrays & sort the aero out, very easy to do, but they can't be bothered but the parts do exist for other models which can be retro fitted!. Also it helps to protect the suspension components from dirt etc..

 

As for the R not feeling special enough, I admit that compared to some cars it is "bland", however I prefer functional a non-aging design, my 14yr old MK1 Fabia still looked modern when I sold it, I think the Golf in GT/GTi/R trim is as good as it gets, but it's down to personal taste..But the MK7 in any trim is way better than the Fabia for quietness etc....

Edited 28 April, 201610 yr by fabdavrav

Talking of VW fitting poor brakes to their cars including the clubsport I suggest owners looking to modify the brakes for track use look at this very respected company for ideas....

 

 

http://vagbremtechnic.com/product-category/volkswagen/golf-5g-2014-onwards/

 

 

Audi TTRS/RS3 Brembo 4pots to Lambo or Audi 8pots with ceramics anyone????

Any car I get I know I might remodel, I have done too many things to my car which IMHO should be factory fit...I was looking at fitting a full VWR suspension setup to my car before I ordered it due to the test drive of the diesel variant & other reports all with the same "crashiness" of the front suspension. For some reason the petrol variant does not have this problem as I found out when I got mine which saved some money!! I would have thought a second hand MK7 GTI with a remap etc would be a good call for cost? Have you seen "Pacific Germans" GTI race car build on MK7 forum, you don't have to go as extreme but you get the idea for mods..

 

VW as always fits poor brakes to its cars & yet the Seat & Audi versions get better brakes with lighter & better callipers. I wonder if the Clubsport "Special" with get the Leon pack brakes?  

 

The only other thing I wish they would do is fit proper flat bottom undertrays & sort the aero out, very easy to do, but they can't be bothered but the parts do exist for other models which can be retro fitted!. Also it helps to protect the suspension components from dirt etc..

 

As for the R not feeling special enough, I admit that compared to some cars it is "bland", however I prefer functional a non-aging design, my 14yr old MK1 Fabia still looked modern when I sold it, I think the Golf in GT/GTi/R trim is as good as it gets, but it's down to personal taste..But the MK7 in any trim is way better than the Fabia for quietness etc....

 

 

One wouldn't believe how many things we agree on it seems, probably we just got off on the wrong foot I guess!

 

RE the GTI, believe it or not my stage 2 Fabia felt no slower than a Cupra or the R up to 120-140km/h except for the launch of the R, but any rolling acceleration up to that speed was no more special, I couldn't believe that a 300ps car didn't amaze me with its pace but it's just as it is being used to the extra power. Of course, past 150 km/h the Fabia started to feel tired where the others would just keep accelerating but still, I don't usually drive at crazy top speeds an especially on a short tight track those speeds are almost unreachable. So I knew I'd have to go higher to be able to feel a difference at more everyday speeds, meaning around 380-400ps. For that I needed a Cupra / R / S3 basis to save me the cost and hassle of a big turbo as needed on the GTI which wasn't even a road I was prepared to go down as I have sworn to stay sensible with mods in my next cars. If the Clubsport didn't come with that same engine and had stayed with the GTI's unit I would have found it much harder to go for it.

 

By the way  I just checked the the pacific german thread and first thing I read is: IS38 stock R/S3 turbo 

 

There's also another problem. A big turbo GTI mapped to 380ps will need much more aftermarket money to get there than a Clubsport/R that gets there with a simple map. All in all you have spent quite similar money in both cases. but with the GTI you practically forget about getting back that extra money spent when sale time comes and you're looking at something slightly higher than a regular GTI value at best. Whereas the R and the Clubsport will sale at least for what they are from factory which is always going to be a higher value, much closer to what you spent compared to the GTI. So if you plan of going higher, you might as well start with the proper car in the first place. 

Talking of VW fitting poor brakes to their cars including the clubsport I suggest owners looking to modify the brakes for track use look at this very respected company for ideas....

 

 

http://vagbremtechnic.com/product-category/volkswagen/golf-5g-2014-onwards/

 

 

Audi TTRS/RS3 Brembo 4pots to Lambo or Audi 8pots with ceramics anyone????

 

Very nice but this is my candidate so far for any possible brake upgrade on the Clubsport (or the R):

 

http://www.part-box.com/product_info.php?products_id=133826

 

VWR Racing 6-pot 360x32 /  monoblock, design / made precisely for the MK7 Golf (no worrying about brake master cylinder compatibility) / no adapters needed / and a whole 4,5kg lighter on each assembly. Best bang for back I've come across.  

Edited 28 April, 201610 yr by newbie69

One wouldn't believe how many things we agree on it seems, probably we just got off on the wrong foot I guess! ....I agree, sorry.... :yes:

 

By the way  I just checked the the pacific german thread and first thing I read is: IS38 stock R/S3 turbo  ....................Its a good many pages of reading & they have gone down the correct way of tuning & modifying for track in my opinion...

 

There's also another problem. A big turbo GTI mapped to 380ps will need much more aftermarket money to get there than a Clubsport/R that gets there with a simple map. All in all you have spent quite similar money in both cases. but with the GTI you practically forget about getting back that extra money spent when sale time comes and you're looking at something slightly higher than a regular GTI value at best. Whereas the R and the Clubsport will sale at least for what they are from factory which is always going to be a higher value, much closer to what you spent compared to the GTI. So if you plan of going higher, you might as well start with the proper car in the first place. ....I see your point, start with a higher output engine as near to factory spec then tune if needed as you won't lose on the value of the "base" car you bought...conversely they are those how don't care & buy a basic car & rebuild from ground up & there are a couple on the same forum.....total nutters....

 

EDIT:

 

I know about the VWR BBK...VWR are based here in UK & was talking to them in 2014 about their suspension kits for the MK7 Golf. In fact I have a set of Team Dynamics ProRace1.2 alloys for summer on my car which are the exact same as the VWR (UK) ones, just that Rimstock (who own TD brand) make the VWR ones & drill for radius bolts & don't put their name on the wheels, just a VWR sticker..

 

All you want to know about BBK kits for MK7 golf here:-

 

http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6872

 

24 pages of info....some of the other set ups with correct piston sizing can have lower weights for the calipers, however for easy retro-fit the VWR kit, I think they have sorted the bottom knuckle/ball joint interference issue now anyway. You could use the Seat Leon Cupra BBK factory kits, but it depends on the Clubsport Hub carrier bolt holes, unless VAGBremtech might make an adaption bracket. All down to £££££

Edited 28 April, 201610 yr by fabdavrav

 

All you want to know about BBK kits for MK7 golf here:-

 

http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6872

 

24 pages of info....some of the other set ups with correct piston sizing can have lower weights for the calipers, however for easy retro-fit the VWR kit, I think they have sorted the bottom knuckle/ball joint interference issue now anyway. You could use the Seat Leon Cupra BBK factory kits, but it depends on the Clubsport Hub carrier bolt holes, unless VAGBremtech might make an adaption bracket. All down to £££££

 

Thanks, getting pinned for the weekend. Reason I like the 360s and won't go for the Cupra brakes is they need at least 19" to clear them. That makes the winter set way more expensive than it has to be, plus going with the stock 18" belvedere means I'd need to buy two new wheel sets basically, so out of the question really. 

 

 

 

....I see your point, start with a higher output engine as near to factory spec then tune if needed as you won't lose on the value of the "base" car you bought...conversely they are those how don't care & buy a basic car & rebuild from ground up & there are a couple on the same forum.....total nutters.... 

 

Yes it has to be either get the most power that you can afford and stay relatively close to it, OR buy something cheap and go mad with it, at least you have saved a lot of money in the first place. 

 

Anywhere in between those two scenarios and you just don't know when to stop. Once you realize what you've spent already you think a little more won't make any difference, something like:

 

 

When I seriously started to think about a big turbo for the Fabia I knew it was time to sell and get to that power in a more sensible way.

 

 

 

 

LOL.....

 

Ahh winter alloys, brakes need to fit inside...

 

Have fun with the reading on the brakes, you might end up back where you started, but at least all options will have been explored..

 

Nutters..one of my mates has a nice small project....bought an old 1989 5 series BMW, stripped it down completely, welding etc, fitting a V8 Vanos engine, custom ECU, power steering, Bilstein suspension, etc...money down a black hole..

Just been looking at various info & pics of the Clubsport & the Clubsport "S" cars (lapping the ring)..

 

The Clubsport has 18" alloys with a lower Power output than the "R", so I recon it will have the "R" front brakes. The Clubsport "S" has slightly more power than "R", & is the direct version of the "Ring" Leon which has fancy brakes /19" alloy option. The ones seen lapping the Ring have the 19" Prets fitted, so I recon this version will have the fancy brakes also..

 

Will either of them have the lighter alloy front subframe & lower arms from the Audi TT/A3??? All current MK7 Golfs get pressed steel subframes & lower arms. The swap is dead easy, but some people report having to re-tighten the bolts with the alu frame, so maybe fit a set of "Tyrolsport" dead set collar kit to the sub frame. With the lower wishbone/control arms some people fit the supra-pro alu versions as they offer increased caster. It will be interesting to see if the any of the Clubsports have Audi alu versions fitted! 

 

http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11756

 

Another area VW skimp is on the aero for the underside & it will be interesting to see what it has fitted if anything! Currently the parts are there in VW but VW do not fit to cars unless "Eco" versions. To seal up the engine bay underside you could fit the reinforced solid (with gearbox NACA ducts) front skid tray (optional factory fit in France/Germany), or the thin aero/sound dampening tray from the diesels. Then there is a cover for the front section of the exhaust tunnel, usually fitted to the Audis. then you have a cover for the exhaust area by the fuel tank which fits any 2WD, & finally but most important is the cover for the rear axle area, for the hatch this is the old MK6 hatch cover. This reduces air turbulence in the void & stops it "lifting" the rear up.

 

http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8532

 

Ps forgot about fitting the Audi TTRS brake duct shields for better cooling, again see the Pacific German race car build....

If you track your car a fire extinguisher is a must, & should be fitted within easy reach of a seated driver. VW offer a factory option in Germany & France for this & it fits to the front of their passenger seat, drivers seat (UK). However the extinguisher is not the best if you have to use it inside the cabin! You need to fit a modern "Eco" version or the old Halon type, these are used by motor sports team etc. So get the brackets from VW dealers & get the correct type of extinguisher. 

 

http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7939

 

 

Also if you track your car a safer battery might be advisable. VW usually fit EFB types which are ok, but the best, most leak resist, turn upside down, crack the case & has no effect are the AGM types (as used in motorsport). Also you could fit a smaller case size as the AGM are usually more powerful & can stand being deep cycled more than EFB. Or really splash out & fit a Lithium.

 

http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7926

 

Also if you have a manual gearbox Clubsport the gearchange mech on the top of the gearbox is totally rubbish & has plastic & rubber parts, if it is the same as fitted to all other MQB cars. So the first thing to do is fit a metal version & solid bushes. There are various kits & way s of doing this some ideas here:-

 

http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11825

http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5572

 

Then the car will be more suited to "track use", typical VW will skimp on these parts, it has done so far of all other versions of the Golf..

Edited 29 April, 201610 yr by fabdavrav

Boy, you've given me enough material to read until the delivery in September I think, cheers!

 

PS. It's a DSG6. Manuals are reported to start slipping even with light power increases so that worried me. Reminds me of similar stories on the M3 with manuals having all sorts of issues while the DCT (or whatever it's called) was coping just fine. Funny how you'd always think a manual is more robust than the semi-autos in the past. Times have changed...

Edited 29 April, 201610 yr by newbie69