So Germans are bad and Czechs are good?

Overgeneralising much?...

 

There is a national psyche I have found dealing with German companies and German authorities and failure is not an option ie when it is impossible to meet the emission regulations, at a prescribed cost and therefore VW engineers and some level of management thought the only option was to cheat the test.  Certainly in my experience a cultural reaction to extreme solutions that Germans adopt rather than thinking laterally which is more of Gallic thing.

 

The Czechs are only know by holiday over there and their history.  Lovely people and place and considering their history of German and then Russian occupations surprising how pleasant and open they are.  If VW have to give up Skoda to pay off their costs racked up by dieselgate then I hope one of the other car manufacturers snap them up as you could not wish for a better workforce both in CZ and SK.    

There is a national psyche I have found dealing with German companies and German authorities and failure is not an option ie when it is impossible to meet the emission regulations, at a prescribed cost and therefore VW engineers and some level of management thought the only option was to cheat the test.  Certainly in my experience a cultural reaction to extreme solutions that Germans adopt rather than thinking laterally which is more of Gallic thing.

 

The Czechs are only know by holiday over there and their history.  Lovely people and place and considering their history of German and then Russian occupations surprising how pleasant and open they are.  If VW have to give up Skoda to pay off their costs racked up by dieselgate then I hope one of the other car manufacturers snap them up as you could not wish for a better workforce both in CZ and SK.    

Unbelievable!!! How can you tar an entire nation with the same brush? 

I work with Germans from two companies and like people from other nations I have worked with they are individuates and I can't say that I have met two who are the same. On that basis all Brits are lager louts. 

Unbelievable!!! How can you tar an entire nation with the same brush? 

I work with Germans from two companies and like people from other nations I have worked with they are individuates and I can't say that I have met two who are the same. On that basis all Brits are lager louts. 

 

You do not believe in National character?  

British, normally, have a sense of fair play, tolerance I would like to think.

 

German success in engineering companies, logistics etc, shows their national characteristic to be clear of purpose, methodical.

 

Germany only formed in  1870 under Bismarck's leadership I recall ie not so long ago compared to most European countries length of history and yes the various federal states have quite different characteristics ie Saxony to Bavaria are very different.  

 

Sometimes such a culture does not allow whistle-blowing so easily, as Japanese culture does not either, which is a shame that this diesel scandal may have emerged early in a corporate culture where such actions are not seen as not the thing to do. 

Funny what people will post without the slightest hint that they're kidding.

Funny what people will post without the slightest hint that they're kidding.

==============================================================

 

Germans should be praised for taking in about a millions refuges although we know it is, in part, due to their demographic issues and therefore needing more people of the younger and lower-middle adult ages groups.  I certainly hope that integration of this immigrant does happen well, better than Turkish integration has gone in some parts of German society.  Two world wars in the last century suggests closer working of all countries should hopefully help avoid this is the future and "nationalism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" said Sam Johnson.

 

It was good to see the French authorities leap on Renault at the slightest sniff of emission issues with a raid and action in a few weeks....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35350474

 

Then it was only involved 15,000 cars and not 11 million and the emission system was quickly reprogrammed to kick in at lower temperatures, job done glad to say so they are not continuing to pollute our atmosphere quite so much.

 

Pull you finger out Herr Müller for all our sakes!

Edited 8 May, 201610 yr by lol-lol

...........and the emission system was quickly reprogrammed to kick in at lower temperatures, job done glad to say so they are not continuing to pollute our atmosphere quite so much.....

I understood that there were serious problems around the cold start emissions that couldn't be simply resolved by any manufacturer.

...........and the emission system was quickly reprogrammed to kick in at lower temperatures, job done glad to say so they are not continuing to pollute our atmosphere quite so much.....

  I understood that there were serious problems around the cold start emissions that couldn't be simply resolved by any manufacturer.

 

As I understand it the diesel engines EG recirc trip point was lowered to accommodate the typical lower temperatures in Northern France and specifically Paris which is the only city in France with a population of over a million that is situated in the cooler Northern European climate.

 

Triggering the EG recirc point to the lower temperature so it at least starts to lower the NOX and PMs.  So rather than the EGR only kicking in in the upper teens Celsius (the temperature just below the lab test) it would start to kick in more around 10C ie the temperature more often experienced as ambient air in Northern France in the late autumn to early spring.  Be interesting to see the results of the tweak.

 

Personally I suspect that any diesel without SCR will struggle to be compliant to the lab level of NOX/PMs in temperatures well below the lab test temperatures and we should address the issue from both the improving the emission performance of current diesels and only allowing sales of new ones that are meeting the true real world emissions testing standard.

 

The UK Con government has started that NOX levels have dropped 17% from their peak and things are heading the right way and have shown they are unwilling to do much anything despite the 10K per annum premature death in London and a further 20K throughout the UK.  We have even had a street closed in Worcester due to high levels of pollution and the 50 Km stretch on the M1 slowing traffic to 90/100 kph is a pain too.  Wish they would set up the system just to use number plate recognition and for it just to apply to non compliant diesels but is a bit too complex perhaps.   Apparently it has been estimated at over 500 premature deaths in Birmingham from air pollution.

Triggering the EG recirc point to the lower temperature so it at least starts to lower the NOX and PMs.

 

 

Does this mean lower power and more gummed up EGR valves? I always thought the EGR kick-in was based on engine rpm to cover idle situations and once you got to 2K the EGR valve was closed?

Well it seems even Mercedes have massive 'real world' emissions problems and their EGR valves seem vulnerable.

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/mercedes-rejects-real-world-nox-criticism

Things don't look very promising for diesel's future.

It is many years now that it was known the EU Testing was not fit for purpose.

The Indoor Storage Temperature before Testing being a really odd thing to see being used when Euro4, Euro5 and then still by the time of Euro6 Emission Standards were being introduced.

http://skoda.co.uk/pages/fuel-consumption-statement.aspx

(It was and is a license for manufacturers to have vehicle Engine Management installed to achieve tests results at the Indoor Temperatures tests are done at.)

 

Simple enough now before the New Tests are introduced for Governments to get access to the Manufacturers World Testing Results they have managed before signing off vehicles and submitting then for EU Testing.

The Manufacturers have all the Real World Data, so that they can Manipulate for Tests in the Buildings to the EU Requirements.

 

Vehicles should be tested in the new tests at the Maximum Weight they will be allowed on the roads at.

Solo Vehicle and then towing at the maximum weight the are certificated for.

This is important for not only Business / Commercial Use & Taxes or Tax Incentives,

but also for those towing for Leisure and Recreation.

Towards Real World Emissions EU Test Results as vehicles might be on the road in the UK / EU and RoW.

Edited 9 May, 201610 yr by GoneOffSKi

Has anyone in the UK had their Skoda called in to have the emission problem sorted?

No not yet.

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Booked my car in for a service and MOT yesterday and the technician there said that he knows as much about what this fix is and when it will  be implemented as we do. He did say that he had heard it will be last quarter this year but that is not solid information. The VW name is not very popular with this Skoda dealer.

And neither should it be. The way vw have acted and still carry on acting is disgraceful

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Remember the company has a primary duty to minimise its shareholder's losses (including the good burgers of Lower Saxony) whilst appeasing legislators in numerous countries and fighting class actions everywhere.

This will be a lesson taught in business schools around the world in what NOT to do.

Qatar has its new VW board members sorted and the Investors are being told all is well at VW now a US agreement is in place, and in the US they say a fix for 3 litre diesel Porsche and Audi is close. It is all spin and about VW borrowings.

Edited 11 May, 201610 yr by GoneOffSKi

VW’s Europe Market Share Slumps to Five-Year Low on Scandal

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-13/vw-s-european-market-share-slumps-to-five-year-low-on-scandal 

 

• Carmaker’s four-month share of sales is smallest since 2011 

  Volkswagen AG’s European market share narrowed for an eighth consecutive month since  the German carmaker’s admission to rigging diesel cars to cheat on emissions tests, as BMW AG and Mercedes-Benz wooed buyers with sport utility vehicles.  Volkswagen accounted for 25.4 percent of the region’s car sales in April versus 26.2 percent a year earlier, the Brussels-based, or ACEA, said in a statement Friday. Volkswagen’s four-month market share was 23.9 percent, the first time the figure for the period was below 24 percent since 2011. Industrywide European registrations in April jumped 9 percent to 1.32 million vehicles, outpacing the German company’s 5.3 percent increase

  

  April was the 32nd straight month of growth in the European car market, which is still recovering from a two-decade low stemming from the global recession. Bolstered by economic stimulus measures as well as new models, demand for cars so far this year has exceeded predictions in the industry, such as French manufacturer Renault SA’s forecast of European auto-market growth of 5 percent for 2016.  “The European passenger car market is well under way to show solid growth in the year,” Holger Schmidt, an analyst at Equinet Bank, wrote Friday in a report to clients. “The continued positive development in Europe supports our positive stance for the current year.”  As Volkswagen has struggled with the fallout of the emissions scandal that came to light in September, BMW’s namesake brand, Daimler AG’s Mercedes unit and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV have grabbed market share in Europe. Those rivals have widened their offerings of increasingly popular SUVs, a segment that has also partly protected Volkswagen’s luxury Audi division, which expanded its share of Europe’s auto sales in the four-month period.  Global VW-brand sales dropped 3.9 percent to 476,700 vehicles during April following declines in western Europe, the U.S. and China, the Wolfsburg-based manufacturer said Friday in a separate statement. That pushed four-month deliveries down 2 percent to 1.98 million autos. A new version of the Tiguan SUV is “currently being successfully introduced in Europe,” and VW expects “positive momentum from this product for the rest of the year,” Juergen Stackmann, head of sales at the marque, said in the statement.

Edited 13 May, 201610 yr by lol-lol

The Norwegians plan to sue VW

http://www.marke****ch.com/story/norways-oil-fund-plans-to-sue-volkswagen-over-emission-scandal-ft-2016-05-16

Something or nothing.  

Perhaps the EU should fine Kia/Hyundai, like the US did for millions of Dollars, for telling the biggest lies in manufacturer's fuel efficiency claims?  More evidence that in cold or hot conditions diesels, ie mid range ambient, without SCR, quickly go outside acceptable emission levels.   Perhaps only allow diesel in urban areas within a certain temperature range ie 10-25, or the like, or heavy charge them outside this range to invest in air scrubber tech? 

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36299555

 

Nissan UK-built Qashqais accused of emission cheat by South Korea

 

Nissan Qashqai cars built at the firm's Sunderland plant in the UK were fitted with so-called emissions defeat devices, South Korean officials allege. 

South Korea's government said earlier it plans to fine the Japanese company 330 million won (£195,000; $279,920) for manipulating emissions tests.  It is the first time Nissan has been officially accused of cheating. It "firmly" denies the accusation.  The UK said its tests had found no evidence of cheating.  However, it tested older models - the Euro 5, while South Korea tested a Euro 6.  The Department for Transport said that it would continue to monitor emissions investigations in other countries with interest.  A spokesperson said two models had been checked as part of its emissions testing programme but were not found to be manipulating the results, adding that it was too early to tell whether new tests were required in light of the latest news.  Nissan has also been tested by the European Union for emissions standards, but it similarly concluded that Nissan vehicles used no illegal devices. The company said the South Korean authorities' findings differed from those of the EU.   Nissan is the second car manufacturer to have been accused of using emissions-cheating software.

 

In September, Volkswagen admitted cheating emissions tests in the US across its range of models affecting up to 11 million cars.  And last month, Japanese car manufacturer Mitsubishi Motors admitted it falsified fuel efficiency test data for decades.  Nissan is set to become Mitsubishi's biggest shareholder after agreeing last week to buy a 34% stake in the company.  South Korean's environment ministry probed 20 diesel car models in the wake of the Volkswagen emissions scandal. Only the Nissan Qashqai failed the test.  It plans a recall and to sue the head of Nissan's South Korean operations.  Hong Dong-kon, a director at the ministry, said the SUV's emission reduction device stopped operating when the engine's temperature reached 35 Celsius, about 30 minutes after the engine began to work.  "Usually, some cars turn off the emission reduction device when the temperature reaches 50 degrees Celsius, to prevent the engine from overheating. The Qashqai was the only vehicle that turned it off at 35 degrees,'' Mr Hong said.  When the emission reduction device stopped working, the Nissan vehicle's level of emissions was about the same or slightly higher than that of diesel cars of Volkswagen, which was fined for cheating on emissions tests.  "All auto experts expressed the opinion that it was clearly a manipulation of the emissions reduction device,'" Mr Hong added.   "Stringent'  In a statement, Nissan said: "Nissan does not manipulate data related to our vehicles. The Nissan Qashqai has been correctly homologated under Korean regulations. Nissan has not and does not employ illegal defeat or cheat devices in any of the cars that we make. "Furthermore, following stringent testing and using similar standards to the Korean tests, EU authorities have concluded that Nissan vehicles they tested used no illegal defeat device.  "Although the conclusions reached by the Korean authorities are inconsistent with those of other regulators, Nissan will carefully assess and consider appropriate next steps.  "Nissan is committed to upholding the law and meeting or exceeding regulations in every market where we operate. We are continuing to work with the Korean authorities."  More than 2 million cars have rolled of the assembly line at the Sunderland plant since Nissan began production of the car in 2006.  It is one of Europe's best selling cars and in February Nissan celebrated the fact that it had built more Qashqais than any other car in its three decades of manufacturing in Europe.

Edited 17 May, 201610 yr by lol-lol

For historical reasons I take Koreans labelling the Japanese with a touch of scepticism until confirmed by others.

For historical reasons I take Koreans labelling the Japanese with a touch of scepticism until confirmed by others.

 

Korean seem to be interpreting that because the EGR slows or stops the recirc at 35C (not sure if that is ambient or what) that that was emission cheating, ah no.

 

Engine management software will adjust EGR, which is primarily to keep unburnt HCs down as I seem to remember, and it would kick in as the engine had warmed up somewhat but might lessen off or stop as the re-circulation was less required or not needed or even actually detrimental as the recirc was adding to NOX production, and the HCs were within limits.

 

If the test is at a single lab temp then that is what it is.  Yes cars should be tested at -10C, 0, 10C, 20C, 30C and 40C and be acceptable on all those outside temps.  To SD sigma 2,3,4 or whatever is decided as appropriate as with other ingestion of foreign gases, and like medicines and other things that effect human life are best thought to be.   

Edited 17 May, 201610 yr by lol-lol

[quote name="lol-lol" post="4621171" timestamp="1463496138...........

 

Yes cars should be tested at -10C, 0, 10C, 20C, 30C and 40C and be acceptable on all those outside temps.  ....

If only!

A trucking solution for Heathrow?.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1103987_nikola-one-2000-hp-natural-gas-electric-semi-truck-announced

Or

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1103998_renewable-diesel-90-percent-lower-carbon-emissions-than-regular-diesel-neste-claims

Edited 17 May, 201610 yr by Ryeman

A trucking solution for Heathrow?.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1103987_nikola-one-2000-hp-natural-gas-electric-semi-truck-announced

Or

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1103998_renewable-diesel-90-percent-lower-carbon-emissions-than-regular-diesel-neste-claims

 

We will be getting our electric vans for LHR later in the year as part of what was called the Boris cars, which he failed to actually get under way, a hallmark of the Conservative reign, but it will finally happen in the next few months cutting the air pollution we do at Heathrow.

 

In other polluted cities, like Singapore, we use the Cantor/Daimler/Mitsubishi eco hybrid 7.5T trucks...

http://canter.co.uk/eco_hybrid

Suzuki admitted cheating self tests too......   (My SV650S is fab on fuel, can do three laps of IoM without refuelling unlike Kwackers).

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/suzuki-shares-dive-improper-fuel-testing-reports-041419390.html

 

 

Suzuki shares dive on reports of improper fuel testing

 

 

AFP

May 18, 2016

 

Suzuki shares have dived 15 percent on reports that it may have used improper fuel-efficiency testing method Tokyo (AFP) - Suzuki shares dived 15 percent Wednesday on reports that it may have used improper fuel-efficiency testing methods, as rival Japanese automaker Mitsubishi wrestles with a fuel-economy cheating scandal.  The Tokyo-listed firm plunged to 2,450 yen ($22.40) in afternoon trading as investors pressed the sell button on the small car maker, which sells almost three million vehicles annually.  Company chairman Osamu Suzuki would visit the transport ministry to discuss the issue, a company spokesman said, without elaborating.  He declined to comment on reports by public broadcaster NHK and Kyodo News agency saying Suzuki was using a fuel-economy testing method that was different from one required by government regulators.  They did not give further details, but the Mainichi newspaper quoted unnamed company sources as saying that Suzuki's testing did not result in false fuel-economy data.  "The company has to make a report on its testing methods at the transport ministry," the spokesman said.  "Chairman Osamu Suzuki will report on that today at the ministry."  The 86-year-old executive, a descendant of the company's founding family, is expected speak at a news briefing at 4:00 pm local time (0700 GMT) Wednesday.  The transport ministry has ordered Japan's automakers to probe their compliance with government testing methods after Mitsubishi admitted last month it manipulated data to make its cars seem more fuel efficient than they were.  Mitsubishi is also expected to submit a report to the ministry on its testing later Wednesday.  Its president Tetsuro Aikawa plans to quit the crisis-hit company, Japan's leading Nikkei business daily said Wednesday.  

 

Last week, Nissan threw an unexpected lifeline to Mitsubishi by offering to buy 34 percent of its shares, in a deal that would give Nissan effective control over the smaller firm.
 

 

Edited 18 May, 201610 yr by lol-lol