In the same way they are looking at methods to capture CO2, perhaps our cities should have NOx capture until alternative vehicle technology matures. Does anybody know if trucks, buses and trains with huge diesel engines have dodgy ECUs and do they emit the same low levels as cars - or do they have different rules?

In the same way they are looking at methods to capture CO2, perhaps our cities should have NOx capture until alternative vehicle technology matures. Does anybody know if trucks, buses and trains with huge diesel engines have dodgy ECUs and do they emit the same low levels as cars - or do they have different rules?

Good question but unfortunately I don't have an answer somebody in the industry might know?  From a simple view of what's on the road I think you see far fewer lorries on the roads belching great clouds of black smoke than you did in the past, and I've seen many modern lorries filling with AdBlue at the pump.  One area that always makes me wonder is the number of school run buses there are around many of which are old vehicles painted up to look brighter but I guess running the same old inefficient polluting engine under the hood. (they often seem to have clouds of cr*p from the exhaust and a sooty shaded rear panel.

I've always lived near an airport and looking at the pollution maps for these areas suggest that they produce large quantities NOx etc., so no reduction system there.  I guess the governments argue that based on the the bodies carried to the amount of pollution the trains and planes are much better than cars?  

.......

Does anybody know if trucks, buses and trains with huge diesel engines have dodgy ECUs and do they emit the same low levels as cars - or do they have different rules?

I would think on a per tonne (or per capita) mile they are acceptable.....the city busses should run CNG in transition to battery I would have thought.

Good question but unfortunately I don't have an answer somebody in the industry might know?  From a simple view of what's on the road I think you see far fewer lorries on the roads belching great clouds of black smoke than you did in the past, and I've seen many modern lorries filling with AdBlue at the pump.  One area that always makes me wonder is the number of school run buses there are around many of which are old vehicles painted up to look brighter but I guess running the same old inefficient polluting engine under the hood. (they often seem to have clouds of cr*p from the exhaust and a sooty shaded rear panel.

I've always lived near an airport and looking at the pollution maps for these areas suggest that they produce large quantities NOx etc., so no reduction system there.  I guess the governments argue that based on the the bodies carried to the amount of pollution the trains and planes are much better than cars?  

 

 

As I understand it the present pollution objective standards are aimed at reducing the concentration of pollution e.g in cities and the individual vehicle NOx emission standards are related to volumes of traffic. If vehicles had 2-5 times the present emitted levels and were spread evenly throughout the UK, we would not exceed pollution concentration levels, although ECO activists with global concerns might say something different! Scaling that up, there are other countries with far more vehicles polluting over a wider area that have less of a city concentration problem. Conversely, if you took even the most recent tighter standards and had those vehicles driving nose to tail around Picadilly 24/7, the measured air pollution would still be too high. I think governments have failed to invest in effective convenient public transport in cities which has encouraged more cars on the road. Now they want to blame car emissions and make us pay to sort out their failed policies after we bought our cars.

 

I've always been sceptical about the electric gasoline cars green credentials like the Prius. When you are in city traffic mode you run on the electric motor, but then you use gasoline to charge up its battery. All I think you are doing is moving the pollution problem from the city to the suburbs when the car is running on gasoline and the battery is being charged. You must lose some horsepower whilst charging which increases gasoline consumption. But because pollution levels are thinly spread outside the city centres, everybody labels the cars as ECO friendly. How can that be?

The electricity has to be generated somwhere to overnight charge vehicles and unless it's solar, wind, nuclear etc., then there is pollution during that process. If you add the pollution to build the solar and wind and the long term issues with nuclear then the road ahead is still very troubled.

I guess one option for buses is battery and Ultra Capacitors with induction charging at the bus stops. The cost of the infrastruction etc., would be high but if the power generation could be sorted the effect would be considerable on pollution reduction. I understand that this type of technology is being developed in a number of countries and trailed in China

Where all this leaves our cars I'm not sure.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-36578506

& not before time.

Plenty had time since September 2015 to have assets that could have been seized moved to places where they might be more difficult to get.

Edited 21 June, 20169 yr by GoneOffSKi

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/business/international/volkswagen-winterkorn-germany.html?emc=edit_ee_20160621&nl=todaysheadlines-europe&nlid=72533936 Winterkorn and possibly another under investigation

Volkswagen 'to pay $10bn' for US emissions scandal

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36611152

Latest from the BBC

This is the only bit that sounds good but will we see any in the UK "Owners could receive between $1,000 and $7,000, depending on their car's age."

Since we are 'Together in Europe' it will be a Europe wide decision. As we discover in recent debates, U.K have its hands tied by Europe on certain taxes. I mean if an EU citizen drives their 2 liter diesel VW in Germany then drives it in UK, you cannot have different tax levels, else it could be a test case in the European Court. But VW have their manufacturing plants,  jobs and wealth creation in many European countries. So who do you think will be getting tough and pressing hard for compensation whilst economic values and jobs are at risk? I don't think the Greens have that much clout against big business and the EU have their own vested interests to look out for, including reducing unemployment.

The settlement is supposed to be secret but

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1104653_vw-to-offer-tdi-diesel-owners-7000-plus-buyback-rumor

I see in the last 24 hours a news article ' South Korea issues arrest warrant for VW executive in emissions probe.'

About time that things moved a bit more at a pace with Governments having Investigations into just what Board Members 

& Senior Employees and Management knew, and covered up before September 2015, or tried to since.

may  have missed it in the previous 32 pages,     but seems the Dutch have recently  uncovered paperwork implicating the EU commissioners in covering up the scandal since 2010

may  have missed it in the previous 32 pages,     but seems the Dutch have recently  uncovered paperwork implicating the EU commissioners in covering up the scandal since 2010

Oh joy of joy. Do you know where that may be reported please?

the Guardian

EU Commission warned of Car Emission test cheating 5 years before VW scandal.   type articles

Edited 25 June, 20169 yr by GoneOffSKi

but seems the Dutch have recently  uncovered paperwork implicating the EU commissioners in covering up the scandal since 2010

 

The UK's EU Commisioner is to resign, that will be one less in the frame. The Brexit vote may not have been all things to all people and there is a rocky ride ahead. Results showed the voice of big business and the power it thinks it holds can no longer be assumed and will eventually have to withstand ethical scrutiny, along with all those that knew things and didn't say anything.  Politics seems to have become a dirty word for mistrust.

http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5789/ec-research-revealed-scandal-over-car-emissions-five-years-ago

I see petrol cars were tested for real world emissions and exceeded limits too? Lets face it, any vehicle combusting a fossil fuel is likely to produce an unwanted biproduct. You either change the fuel/energy source or spend more than it costs to capture and dispose of unwanted emissions. That is the problem carbon capture has run into for fossil fuel burning power stations - some of those will be running your future electric vehicles. A price break point now seems to have been reached with automobile engines more complicated but still not conforming on real driving emissions.

 

I see petrol cars were tested for real world emissions and exceeded limits too? 

 

 

Diesel gate has been about NOx emissions and the issues that causes in city and town centres.

 

In the test quoted above the petrol engines were within legal limits while the diesel engines emitted as much as 14 times the legal limit.

 

Lee 

Im sure ive said this before the mot testing centre i go to have told me not to have the fix done on my 1.6 tdi vw as it will never fail mot ? As the cheat will always kick in and fool the test and whatever they come up with (vw fix) will bring nothing but issues with egr and dpf in the long run

Im sure ive said this before the mot testing centre i go to have told me not to have the fix done on my 1.6 tdi vw as it will never fail mot ? As the cheat will always kick in and fool the test and whatever they come up with (vw fix) will bring nothing but issues with egr and dpf in the long run

Mostly spot on, except the cheat kicking in at MOT tests. It wouldn't, 'cos it was designed to recognise/fool the EU5 emissions compliance test, which isn't anything like an MOT emissions test.

It wouldn't need to anyway as NOx isn't measured at MOT.

It appears to me that the emission scandal will take a back seat now against all the economic woes after brexit.

 

If one fifth of German car production is to UK then they may well want to see this trade continue but not so much if they cannot get a proper value for selling their cars when converted back to Euros.

 

The car prices in the Q3 and Q4 brochures will be interesting and whether the heavy discounting seen this month continue over the next few month.

 

European car firms will not want to be stuck with Right hand drive cars they cannot see almost anywhere else.

 

Price of second hand cars may bounce upwards a bit without so many new car sales.

 

So, much as to seeing the complete lack of action by the UK government on this issue I think this is such a minor issue that virtually nothing will happen over it other than with increased fuel cost people will drive less and pollute less.  

European car firms will not want to be stuck with Right hand drive cars they cannot see almost anywhere else.

 

Their car plants are so flexible now they virtually build custom to order.  I can't see EU firms holding right hand drive stock on forecourts. If there are any trade deals done future EU cars would come in through export trade deals, agreements and tarifs. If they don't want to sell right hand drive into the UK market I'm sure their will be other car manufacturers willing to take their place but we may have to pay more. I remember when the last crisis hit a major car manufacturer, over a weekend I saw independent franchises change to another brand.

 

The alternative is we end up like Cuba in 10 years time with all our existing cars staying on the road and stuck in a time warp. No, we'll be driving more American, Asian and electric cars by then. It's interesting when you visit non-EU countries and look at the cars being driven. Only in Europe do cars seem to all look similar and many of German origin.  That's not due to customer choice but the restrictions and trade barriers placed by both sides. I can appreciate the concern over keeping car manufacturing in UK, but we should remember that this sector is mainly outsourcing activity and assembly with most components imported  from other (EU) countries as part of deals done. The components are put together in UK then shipped out as an 'Export' whilst using the UK as a convenience location to gain access.  Our reputation and dominance as a manufacturer disappeared years ago when we moved into services and most of our real car production died.

 

I agree there are more important issues to worry about than dieselgate. MOT is not the issue because UK Gov will not introduce new testing regimes overnight and incur voters wrath with retrospective action.  What is more likely is changing VED and fuel duties, but VED relies on paper specs which we now know cannot be trusted.  At some point in time UK can take whatever action it wants without EU interference or protectionism influencing its decisions. I think you still need the tick in the box confirming a fix for them to manage by paper. Those without the tick could be penalized through taxes. Those with a tick and a remap might buy themselves some time until MOT catches up.

I read on one of the many news items I've followed over the weekend that on the declaration of the Brexit vote the German car manufacturers made urgent representation to there government that there car exports to the UK should not be taxed. It appears the about 25% of the up market brands are sold directly to the UK. Sorry I can't find the reference article they seem to be changing very quickly, no surprise I guess?

Their car plants are so flexible now they virtually build custom to order.  I can't see EU firms holding right hand drive stock on forecourts. If there are any trade deals done future EU cars would come in through export trade deals, agreements and tarifs. If they don't want to sell right hand drive into the UK market I'm sure their will be other car manufacturers willing to take their place but we may have to pay more. I remember when the last crisis hit a major car manufacturer, over a weekend I saw independent franchises change to another brand.  The alternative is we end up like Cuba in 10 years time with all our existing cars staying on the road and stuck in a time warp. No, we'll be driving more American, Asian and electric cars by then. It's interesting when you visit non-EU countries and look at the cars being driven. Only in Europe do cars seem to all look similar and many of German origin.  That's not due to customer choice but the restrictions and trade barriers placed by both sides. I can appreciate the concern over keeping car manufacturing in UK, but we should remember that this sector is mainly outsourcing activity and assembly with most components imported  from other (EU) countries as part of deals done. The components are put together in UK then shipped out as an 'Export' whilst using the UK as a convenience location to gain access.  Our reputation and dominance as a manufacturer disappeared years ago when we moved into services and most of our real car production died.   I agree there are more important issues to worry about than dieselgate. MOT is not the issue because UK Gov will not introduce new testing regimes overnight and incur voters wrath with retrospective action.  What is more likely is changing VED and fuel duties, but VED relies on paper specs which we now know cannot be trusted.  At some point in time UK can take whatever action it wants without EU interference or protectionism influencing its decisions. I think you still need the tick in the box confirming a fix for them to manage by paper. Those without the tick could be penalized through taxes. Those with a tick and a remap might buy themselves some time until MOT catches up.

 

Years ago KPMG (one of the mega-big consultancy firms if one was not aware, (I am PwC Alumni)) reckoned that RHDs cost 6% more than LHD cars but I imagine that has narrowed with more flexible tooling and production line tech but there still will be a gap of a few percent.  Interesting report by the aforementioned for the SMMT on car industry EU relationship and what a huge error it will be leaving the EU...

 

http://www.smmt.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/SMMT-KPMG-EU-Report.pdf

Edited 27 June, 20169 yr by lol-lol