Running in TSI engines

[Rainmaker]

On 03/11/2018 at 22:19, byteme said:

What a load of rubbish.  Get in in and drive it.

 

Thank you for that verbose, insightful and excellently executed rebuttal. I'm convinced.

[Chas51]

Well, i think it's a great guide and will be enjoying my 400 mile drive home on Friday and using much of the advice given..thanks!  

[xman]

I agree wholeheartedly with byteme. Unless you are a track racer, there is no need for any special procedure. In fact, my personal experience with the mini fleet we have suggests those that get the full motorway treament from the outset, end up being the smoothest, most economical, most trouble free etc.

 

Never, touch wood, had an oil burner, but then that is largely a design problem with certain engine types CAVE, 1.8 tsi gen 1 and 2 etc.

 

I wager that any other troublesome engines and gearboxes for that matter either come out of the factory with manufacturing defects or are subject to bad or incorrect servicing.

 

Fortunately, use of chains in VAG engines are consigned to history, hopefully. They never really could come up with a reliable maintenance free design or supplier.

 

[Rainmaker]

6 hours ago, xman said:

I agree wholeheartedly with byteme. Unless you are a track racer, there is no need for any special procedure. In fact, my personal experience with the mini fleet we have suggests those that get the full motorway treament from the outset, end up being the smoothest, most economical, most trouble free etc.

 

Where did the OP suggestt any differently? In fact it emphatically emphasised not babying the engine and giving it some stick across the speed and load range once warm. The only thing wrong with the 'motorway treatment' is it's far too gentle and tends to veer between steady speed and gear, and stop start (depening on your location in the country). Much better to take the back roads and give it some oomph.

[byteme]

7 hours ago, Rainmaker said:

 

Thank you for that verbose, insightful and excellently executed rebuttal. I'm convinced.

 

Rainmaker: You start off your lengthy post with a statement you are neither and engineer of a mechanic, perhaps you should have left it there. If you point to evidence of a single warranty claim that has ever been rejected on the basis of poor "running-in" then please enlighten us but to save you the trouble there have never been any in living memory. "Running In" stickers on the back of cars belong back in the time of those that boasted the driver had "Disc Brakes".

 

I don't want to rip your post apart line by line but in contains numerous errors and assumptions that have no basis in fact. There is little point replying in detail to those who have to have to be baby walked through the basics but hey, if your want to play big boy and tell others what to do then fine.

 

xman has posted a fantastic reply that pretty much sums it all up in a few sentences. For many years there have been exceptional engines in common use on very ordinary cars I have yet to see a single failure despite my work bring me into contact with many vehicles each week. That was entirely due to excellent design and engineering and nothing to do with running in.

 

Then there are the generation of engines that use single roller timing chains which were fine in the 1960s (when disc brakes were something you boasted of) when the crankshaft and camshaft were separated  by a child's hand-span but how any manufacturer thought a lightweight single roller chain could work reliably when it had to travel over numerous guides and slippers, over two camshafts and then back over a tensioner to the crankshaft is ludicrous. Engineers are not stupid (or are they) but this was likely a cost, friction and weight saving measure that resulted in numerous warranty claims and massive cost for owners in later years. The tiniest amount of wear in the huge number of links in cumulative and the extension in chain length becomes significant. Most often, long before noise develops, valve timing errors are registered by the on board diagnostics and trigger the EML warning. Numerous manufacturers can be researched where you will see this happens even now despite this being a known concern over 15 years ago. On some BMW models timing chain replacement requires a new crankshaft and dual-mass flywheel. Of course this has nothing to do with the way the engines were run in.

 

Then of course there are the sludging issues that affect a wide variety of manufacturers using a common engine that result in premature turbocharger failure but with the add on of an addition ten hours of labour to de-sludge without which the replacement turbo fails instantly. None of this is the result of how the engines were run in.

 

How about oil consumption issues or premature valve guide wear on earlier Skoda engines that resulted in many warranty claims or expensive bills. They had nothing to do with running in.

 

One of the latest issues concerns those engines with internal timing belts running in oil. Who would have ever thought that could ever have been a bad idea that resulted in material shed-off the belt clogging oilways and even the sump pick-up gauze? No running in procedure would have made any difference.

 

In short, running in makes no difference whatsoever, engine design does. Just best not to hit the rev limiter before you change into second after leaving the showroom with your new car. What kills engines is continual warm up cycles and if you only use a car for short journeys expect a much shorter engine life and more problems than a car that covers 200 miles a day.

 

[xman]

1 hour ago, Rainmaker said:

 

Where did the OP suggestt any differently?

I must have been reading something completely different to you then.

 

I must admit I did feel my eyes glazing over when trying to read all of the OP's original post.

 

Edited 12 November, 2018 by xman

[Sagalout]

Well I think that is a draw with regard to verbosity 

 

Reads to me like both of you are saying the same thing in reality. Take care in the early miles but no need to be 'special or precious' about it.

[byteme]

1 hour ago, Sagalout said:

Well I think that is a draw with regard to verbosity 

 

Reads to me like both of you are saying the same thing in reality. Take care in the early miles but no need to be 'special or precious' about it.

None in my case, just a few facts to consider that are actually relevant to counter the crap about mineral oils and other nonsense. My initial post said all that was needed - "What a load of rubbish.  Get in in and drive it."

 

 

[newbie69]

A friend is picking up a 1.0 115 Polo this week and it just so happens that he needs to do a 450km (back n forth) trip the very next day. He's worried whether it's a good idea to do it in a brand new car and asked me for advice. I suggested that as long he variates his speed and rpm and moves between 4th and 6th (as much as possible on a highway) and not stick in one speed and gear for maybe more than 5min? he should be ok. Surely it won't be the most economical driving and maybe a bit annoying for some other travellers to see the car that overtook them before doing 85mph now sitting in front of them doing 65 but what better can you do under the circumstances?  It's a 130km/h limit highway with bits that drop to 120 and 110kmh limits.

[digifish]

Does anyone know if the Digital Dash modifies the redline depending on engine temp and milage? I am just about to pick one up next week.

[abaxas]

1 minute ago, digifish said:

Does anyone know if the Digital Dash modifies the redline depending on engine temp and milage? I am just about to pick one up next week.

I can say with almost 100% accuracy that my 1.4 tdi lowers peak torque when the engine is cold.

The only reason I know this is due to living in a really hilly area. One of the hills is very steep and climes about 200ft. My car will happily pull up in 3rd when warm but cannot when the engine is cold.  The difference is quite stark, it accelerates when warm but decelerates when cold and asks for a gear change to 2nd. 

I would assume that most modern engines did the same.

[digifish]

16 hours ago, abaxas said:

I can say with almost 100% accuracy that my 1.4 tdi lowers peak torque when the engine is cold.

 

How cold is cold?

 

Thanks for the info, it certainly could be possible for manufacturers to limit torque/power based on a number of factors. A run-in mode would be nice, only overridden if you floor the pedal in an emergency.

 

[abaxas]

Cold as in standing for few hours then having been driven 200-300m.

[edbostan]

I have bought 3 cars from new the first was a BL Mini in 1974, the second a Mk1 Micra in 1984 and the last was the Roomster in 2013. The Mini was run in in its first week by a trip from London to Stoke on Trent and back where I noticed that the oil pressure gauge dropped from 75psi to 45 psi when the engine become hot. I maintained a speed of 40mph for the duration of the 200 odd miles as I was concerned about the drop in oil pressure. That engine did 99k befoere the head was taken off and the valves ground in. The Micra had a daily commute of 20 miles per day and a weekly round trip of 40 miles around the M25. That car was sold to a friend and lasted 15 years with the original engine. The Roomster my latest was purchased five years ago from Portsmouth so endured a 200 mile trip back to North London (all motorway). It has now travelled 30k burns no oil and a joy to drive. We can get hung up on this. Just drive normally and the engine will reward you with years of troublefree motoring. In 50 years of driving I have never had engine failure.

[digifish]

FWIW, my Superb III 2.0 TSI (220 ps / 162 KW) went on a 3 hour road-trip the moment it left the showroom. I purchased it from a dealer in another city.

 

It wasn't constant speed driving, lots of 80 - 110 km/hr (50 - 70 mph) up/down as there were a lot of roadworks and contraflows, hills etc. I also flipped the gears a little to vary the RPM from time to time.

 

A few weeks later and after now ~ 500 km / 300 miles, the oil level is still bang on the delivery mark. I'll pop back here and update the oil consumption figures as things progress.

 

 

 

 

Edited 9 April, 2019 by digifish

[digifish]

On 09/04/2019 at 13:38, digifish said:

A few weeks later and after now ~ 500 km / 300 miles, the oil level is still bang on the delivery mark. I'll pop back here and update the oil consumption figures as things progress.

 

 

1000 km and the oil is still bang on the delivery mark. 

Edited 6 May, 2019 by digifish

[davembk]

Thanks Rainmaker,

 

Yes it’s amazing how resilient  modern engines are compared with those of old.

 

I think I was about right in my few hundred miles driving from new, and the car does seem to be fine. 

 

The only thing I believe I’ve done “wrong” was last week, at 7000 miles and on a very cold tdi engine. 

 

I was late late for the doc and so where I’d normally have waited at the t junction for the van in the distance to pass, instead I let my haste take control, and went early, using a lot of power, and going against firstly, good driving ethos and secondly the advice to be careful with a cold engine. 

That was the one and only time, and the dsg would have hopefully prevented overreving, although not overloading. But all the same I did feel a bit stupid afterwards and wondered if I was in fact hearing a bit of metallic engine protest during that mad (but safe, I have to say)  moment. 

Is it possible to trash an engine in that way, an one off ill advised 7-10 seconds?

[dg360]

No, I suspect that less than half of new owners have any inkling about such things. If the dealer even mentioned it at pickup they didn't listen. They then thrash them out of the dealer gates and out of every junction thereafter. I'm not aware of an epidemic of failed engines as a result.

It'll be fine I'm sure.

[digifish]

I am at 1600 km now and the oil is still on the delivery mark. Definitely not using any. Although the km are still very low. 

[digifish]

14 hours ago, dg360 said:

No, I suspect that less than half of new owners have any inkling about such things. If the dealer even mentioned it at pickup they didn't listen. They then thrash them out of the dealer gates and out of every junction thereafter. I'm not aware of an epidemic of failed engines as a result.

It'll be fine I'm sure.

 

But it could be the reason for the engines that end up using oil. 

 

I have purchased 5 new cars, so far. 1 diesel, 4 petrol. All of them didn't use a drop by the time I sold them. I did two things... 1. Take it easy for the first 1000 km. 2. Take it easy until the engine warms up (not 100% but for about 5 minutes at least). Its basic respect for the machinery. 

Edited 30 June, 2019 by digifish

[byteme]

14 hours ago, davembk said:

Thanks Rainmaker,

 

Yes it’s amazing how resilient  modern engines are compared with those of old.

 

I think I was about right in my few hundred miles driving from new, and the car does seem to be fine. 

 

The only thing I believe I’ve done “wrong” was last week, at 7000 miles and on a very cold tdi engine. 

 

I was late late for the doc and so where I’d normally have waited at the t junction for the van in the distance to pass, instead I let my haste take control, and went early, using a lot of power, and going against firstly, good driving ethos and secondly the advice to be careful with a cold engine. 

That was the one and only time, and the dsg would have hopefully prevented overreving, although not overloading. But all the same I did feel a bit stupid afterwards and wondered if I was in fact hearing a bit of metallic engine protest during that mad (but safe, I have to say)  moment. 

Is it possible to trash an engine in that way, an one off ill advised 7-10 seconds?

 

There are many older engines that were more resilient than the crap that is sold today and a number of manufacturers have major issues none of which affect Skoda. As for your concern, FFS it's just a car, just get in and drive it. If it goes bang (it wont) Skoda will pay. The ony really stupid thing to do is start from cold and blip the throttle to impress your friends. Not an issue with a Skoda but a fair few supercar engines meet a quick demise this way. I can't belive this thread is still going on, after all you don't run in a washing machine or an Airbus jet.

[digifish]

On 30/06/2019 at 11:39, byteme said:

 

There are many older engines that were more resilient than the crap that is sold today and a number of manufacturers have major issues none of which affect Skoda. As for your concern, FFS it's just a car, just get in and drive it. If it goes bang (it wont) Skoda will pay. The ony really stupid thing to do is start from cold and blip the throttle to impress your friends. Not an issue with a Skoda but a fair few supercar engines meet a quick demise this way. I can't belive this thread is still going on, after all you don't run in a washing machine or an Airbus jet.

 

And this is why its almost impossible to find a decent used car. Is it a bad thing to show respect for the machinery, and by default, to the person who will buy the from you? 

 

After all, we are not talking anything more than driving with care for 1000 km and then waiting for the engine to warm up before flooring it. Why is that so hard?

 

Edited 17 July, 2019 by digifish

[abaxas]

I've never understood why cars don't retard the accelerator input when really cold. It would be a software freebie.

[Breezy_Pete]

But would cause no end of customer complaints/questions...

[dg360]

Didn't BMW used to have a feature where the higher ranges of the rev counter gradually illuminated green? as the engine warmed up? Maybe they still do?