EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[Ootohere]

Labour Party Conference shows just what a waste of space they are as an opposition to the Conservative & Unionist party & the UK's C&UP /DUP  Alliance Government.

If they were chocolate they would eat themselves, charge it on expenses and then not know what VAT rate to charge or if it was tariff free.

[S00perb]

44 minutes ago, Eddie-NL said:

Regardless of who is in power

 

To get the debt down, you have to run a surplus.

Reducing the deficit or spending like a mad man will only increase debt but at different levels. 

 

 

 

Something the Con party here seems to be good at talking about and terrible at implementing

https://politicalsift.wordpress.com/2016/02/17/the-tory-deficit-myth-other-lies/

 

[S00perb]

10 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Indeed.  Old East Germany was the AfD's strong hold where they got about a quarter of the vote.   

 

Worrying times.   

AfD splitting up already

AfD leader quits party caucus hours after German election breakthrough

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/25/afd-leader-frauke-petry-quits-party-german-election-breakthrough

 

That is always the problem for 'anti' parties - they rarely agree on what they are actually against!

Edited 25 September, 2017 by S00perb

[Bignij]

On 9/24/2017 at 09:25, lol-lol said:

Maybe delaying actual BREXIT for another 2 years will suit many.  

 

 

It'll give Colin chance to get a bigger server to accommodate this thread, 'cos I bet it will still be rumbling on. 

[lol-lol]

5 hours ago, Eddie-NL said:

Regardless of who is in power

 

To get the debt down, you have to run a surplus.

Reducing the deficit or spending like a mad man will only increase debt but at different levels. 

 

Running a goods trade surplus is one element that can help.  It is the services trade surplus that has usually narrowed the gap in the UK between receipts and payments.

 

Other than that collecting our direct taxes and indirect taxes on our  purchases also is a major source of UK government income. The UK citizens, their massive pension funds generate massive incomes from overseas and just because of the massive amount of money sat there that pours in to UK pockets much from abroad but is not captured in the trade stats.  

I am not convinced that having the corporate tax rate at 19% or 26% will make much difference but the UK taxes ie Income Tax, National Insurance, VAT, as well as Corporate tax are so easily avoided and evaded and with a believable statement that only half of all applicable taxes are collected it is no wonder the UK is about £100B short every year.

 

The 40% tax relief on pension contributions is perhaps over generous and now these growing schemes of salary sacrifice to avoid NI on pension contributions by both the employee and employer is also not going to help the UK balance of payments yet they are HMRC, Treasury, Chancellor of the Exchequer known about but as usual it benefit those who know how to use these schemes whilst those who don't do not benefit and the UK gov is left with less money in the coffers.

 

This laissez-faire government has just let the country slip another Trillion in debt without put money in the right place to get the economy going whilst letting already well off individuals profit even more.  Should not complain as I benefit from these concessions but it is clearly a government for the few and not the many. 

 

¹⁷ Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

¹⁸ But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

¹⁹ Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

²⁰ And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

²¹ They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

²² When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

 

 

             

Edited 25 September, 2017 by lol-lol

[punyXpress]

Was going to ask the question before you went all Biblical on us:

anyway, here goes.

If and when we achieve Brexit, what are we going to call the tax that is now VAT ?

[@Lee]

19 minutes ago, punyXpress said:

Was going to ask the question before you went all Biblical on us:

anyway, here goes.

If and when we achieve Brexit, what are we going to call the tax that is now VAT ?

Before it was known as VAT it was called 'Purchase Tax'. Who knows what it'll be called if and when Brexit happens.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2010/dec/31/vat-brief-history-tax

[@Lee]

2 hours ago, Bignij said:

It'll give Colin chance to get a bigger server to accommodate this thread, 'cos I bet it will still be rumbling on. 

Why wouldn't people want to discuss the biggest event in politics in generations? 

[@Lee]

This guy's 'only' a Nobel Laureate economist so, if you think YOU know better than him, not to mention the countless other 'experts', send him an email.
I'm sure he'd be delighted to hear from you  

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/brexit-paul-krugman-zero-chance-britain-better-off-eu-leave-single-market-custom-union-exports-trade-a7965871.html

[old newbie2]

1 hour ago, Lee01 said:

Before it was known as VAT it was called 'Purchase Tax'. Who knows what it'll be called if and when Brexit happens.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2010/dec/31/vat-brief-history-tax

Sales Tax, or Good & Services Tax as per our cross-pond cousins?

[@Lee]

Well, I was right about the former East but not about Bavaria although the AfD did gain a lot in Saxony.

More here. https://www.welt.de/english-news/article169009689/How-voters-switched-parties-at-the-German-election-visualised.html

[lol-lol]

4 hours ago, punyXpress said:

Was going to ask the question before you went all Biblical on us:

anyway, here goes.

If and when we achieve Brexit, what are we going to call the tax that is now VAT ?

 

GST

[lol-lol]

European Commission - Speech - [Check Against Delivery]

Introductory remarks by Michel Barnier at the press conference following the General Affairs Council (Article 50)

Brussels, 25 September 2017

 

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-17-3461_en.htm

 

Ladies and gentlemen,

First of all, a word of thanks to the Estonian Presidency and to Matti Maasikas, and to the whole team in the Embassy, and to all the Ministers doing a tremendous job – in particular in my area – in a spirit of trust and reciprocity that I would like to commend.  In her speech in Florence, Theresa May expressed a constructive spirit, which is also ours, as the Ministers unanimously confirmed today in the Council.  What matters now – during this limited time, when every day we are getting closer to the 29 March 2019: the day the UK will become a third country, as was its wish and demand – is that the UK government translates Mrs. May's statements into clear negotiating positions.  And that we discuss in detail these positions around the negotiating table.   We are therefore at a moment of clarity, particularly regarding citizens' rights and the financial settlement. And we need to advance on finding a unique solution for Ireland. On all of these subjects, and on a few others, this is the moment of clarity.  Since Friday, the 27 Member States have reaffirmed their unity. This was once again confirmed in the discussions in the Council today.  And this unity is shared also by the political groups I met this morning in the European Parliament– as I do almost every week.  A word now on the new, key element raised in Theresa May's speech: The United Kingdom requested for the first time a transition period for a limited amount of time beyond its withdrawal from the European Union and its institutions.  This is currently not part of my mandate, but I would like to insist on a few conditions that the European Council has already set out. Allow me to refer you to the European Council guidelines, which must be read regularly – as I often do.

1. The Union also must decide if such a period is in its interest.

2. Any transition must respect the legal and financial framework of the Single Market. To quote the European Council: "Should a time-limited prolongation of Union acquis be considered, this would require existing Union regulatory, budgetary, supervisory, judiciary and enforcement instruments and structures to apply." Those are the words of the European Council. I think that everybody should remember them.

3. Finally, discussions on a transition – which will now take place since the UK has requested it –do not absolve us from the necessity of making "sufficient progress." Progress on our three key issues remains more than ever necessary in order to build the trust needed to begin discussing our future relationship.

A final point, which is also important, is that we do not mix up the discussion on liabilities and commitments from the past – which are the subjects that make up the orderly withdrawal – with a discussion on the future relationship.

The fourth round of negotiations this week should allow us to advance on each of these key points and to get the clarity that is needed to make progress.

[Bignij]

17 hours ago, Lee01 said:

Why wouldn't people want to discuss the biggest event in politics in generations? 

it's not a criticism, merely an observation.  I find the thread rather interesting, although slightly pointless. In so much as the to and fro won't change anything or anyone's mindset or opinion. 

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, Bignij said:

it's not a criticism, merely an observation.  I find the thread rather interesting, although slightly pointless. In so much as the to and fro won't change anything or anyone's mindset or opinion. 

 

The terms and timing of the UK leaving the EU effects my work as I work on customs systems that are required to implement BREXIT.

 

On a personal level it also affects the various pots I put my pension contributions in to based on the changed economic future of the UK and also the applying for an Irish passport so I can move around Europe more easily which will also, in some part, further disassociate myself with the UK's decision to leave the EU.

My millions of British national seek an internationalist life style both in spending much of their time not in the UK and further an internationalist agenda rather than a nationalist one.   Wealth can be, and is often cross-border and it is foolish to put all one's egg in the UK basket ie Pensions, property, cash etc.     

 

[Bignij]

5 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

The terms and timing of the UK leaving the EU effects my work as I work on customs systems that are required to implement BREXIT.

 

On a personal level it also affects the various pots I put my pension contributions in to based on the changed economic future of the UK and also the applying for an Irish passport so I can move around Europe more easily which will also, in some part, further disassociate myself with the UK's decision to leave the EU.

My millions of British national seek an internationalist life style both in spending much of their time not in the UK and further an internationalist agenda rather than a nationalist one.   Wealth can be, and is often cross-border and it is foolish to put all one's egg in the UK basket ie Pensions, property, cash etc.     

 

I meant the to's and fro's of the thread, not the Brexit itself. 

[moley]

On 9/24/2017 at 17:39, S00perb said:

Germany has a very different type of democracy. It is not a first past the post as in the UK. They are used to coalitions and hard bargaining at the start of a process that can take months to agree.

TM HAD an overall majority - she gambled it - that was clearly very very bad. Only financial bribes keep her in power - and not for much longer (weaker than that weird bloke after Thatcher)

Democracy is Democracy. Germany has a different election system to the UK. If the UK didn't use first past the post and used proportional representation we would have 12 UKIP mp's in parliament instead of none.

[Ootohere]

^^^ 12 might have gained a seat in Westminster,

that does not mean they would have been there that often, or that they would not already be under investigation or suspension

or just left UKIP and now have joined another party or be sitting as an independent.

[moley]

27 minutes ago, Headinawayoffski said:

^^^ 12 might have gained a seat in Westminster,

that does not mean they would have been there that often, or that they would not already be under investigation or suspension

or just left UKIP and now have joined another party or be sitting as an independent.

That's correct George. My point was that some folks want to change the 'system' when they lose because it's 'unfair', but the system might not be want they want either when they see the result.

There was a classic piece in the original 'Auf wiedersehen pet' series when they decided to paint the hut. Barry set out the election that everyone voted for a first choice and second choice colour. The winning colour was yellow, but no one had chosen yellow as their first choice. That's democracy 

[S00perb]

54 minutes ago, moley said:

Democracy is Democracy. Germany has a different election system to the UK. If the UK didn't use first past the post and used proportional representation we would have 12 UKIP mp's in parliament instead of none.

I would be perfectly happy with proportional representation and 12 kippers - they would show themselves up pretty fast and people would lose interesting in them come the next election.

Edited 26 September, 2017 by S00perb

[Ootohere]

In the Scottish Parliament they said how well Ruth Davidson did to get the Scottish Conservatives to in 2nd place & to become the opposition.

They did get the 2nd most MSP's, but just not the 2nd  highest amount of votes, the system allowed them to get MSP's from the list where they had not had good results in that constituency.

[lol-lol]

2 hours ago, Bignij said:

I meant the to's and fro's of the thread, not the Brexit itself. 

 

Has there been any to's and fro's?

 

I still have not heard good reasons to leave the EU.    Economically, by any logical thought process UK citizens are going to collectively tens of billions worse off per year and the UK government, to date, has shown an absolute failure to control immigration from outside the EU ie a million in since 2010, so what would give anyone confidence they can control ex-EU immigration.    All we hear is that we took the democratic right to slit our own throats.

 

 

[Ootohere]

^^^ That majority vote of those voting to leave is all the reason.

Then 'They Work For Us',  so theirs might be to question why, and delay, and mess about, and then in the end get on with it.

 

Just listening about Labour having prepared for a run on the 'Pound' if they got into power.

Jeremy Corbyn MP can prepare all he wants, love to know how the Bank of England is prepared.

[S00perb]

6 minutes ago, Headinawayoffski said:

Just listening about Labour having prepared for a run on the 'Pound' if they got into power.

Jeremy Corbyn MP can prepare all he wants, love to know how the Bank of England is prepared.

Were you listening to Jeremy Corbyn's interview with Laura Kuenssberg or the actual speech that was at a fringe event that has been (as usual) taken out of context?

[Ootohere]

Just on Sky and listening not watching so no idea the venue.