EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[S00perb]

4 minutes ago, moley said:

Correct. The EU works on a seven year financial cycle, which ends in 2020. If the EU has decided to allocate funds for projects beyond 2020 they should let the UK know what they are during the negotiations.

Quote

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/eu-divorce-bill5 Sep 2017 - The divorce bill settlement is a separate issue from any continuing contributions

 

[moley]

5 minutes ago, S00perb said:

We are at stage 1 of a process NOT stage 2 in a negotiation

Mr Barnier believes these are negotiations

Press statement by Michel Barnier following the fifth round of Article 50 negotiations with the United Kingdom. 

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-17-3921_en.htm

[S00perb]

2 minutes ago, moley said:

Mr Barnier believes these are negotiations

Press statement by Michel Barnier following the fifth round of Article 50 negotiations with the United Kingdom. 

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-17-3921_en.htm

 

Quote

"We still have a common goal: the desire to reach an agreement on the UK's withdrawal and to outline our future relationship, when the time comes "

He is talking about stage 1 AND stage 2

But we are not AT stage 2 yet

[S00perb]

5 minutes ago, Sad555 said:

sn't it strange that in government .banking ,industry etc etc when an executive wants to leave/ part company they always get a golden handshake and leave asap but for some reason the eu under the german control don't want this to happen.i wonder why? 

The UK is not anything like an executive, more like a partner. And if a partner in a business has promised to put a further 20k into a business before leaving, he had better put it in

[CWARD]

4 minutes ago, S00perb said:

And if a partner in a business has promised to put a further 20k into a business before leaving, he had better put it in

 

In doing so would be entitled to the repayment of the loan as they would be a creditor to the partnership. ^^^ another example of not understanding the basics.

[@Lee]

9 hours ago, CWARD said:

 

I don't believe in a federal EU. Read Junckers 2017 State on the union address. I don't want to be like the United States of America, nor do I want to be a citizen of the United States of Europe either.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure you recall that not only does the UK have a far better deal with the EU than any other country with its various opt-outs such as Schengen, the Euro, the rebate etc etc but it also (not any more thank you, Brex****) had a VETO. We were at the top of the tree and no doubt could have opted out or vetoed that.
 

[S00perb]

1 minute ago, Lee01 said:

I'm sure you recall that not only does the UK have a far better deal with the EU than any other country with its various opt-outs such as Schengen, the Euro, the rebate etc etc but it also (not any more thank you, Brex****) had a VETO. We were at the top of the tree and no doubt could have opted out or vetoed that.
 

I don't think many people do recall we had the best seat in the house at all. Our papers covered it all up. We had everything we ever asked for and THEN told them to stuff it. I personally think they are being incredibly polite considering.

Imagine if the tables were reversed, Germany got a massive rebate or France didn't have to let us in without looking at our passports etc.

 

[Ootohere]

http://theconversation.com/the-uks-eu-rebate-explained-58019 

[CWARD]

10 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

I'm sure you recall that not only does the UK have a far better deal with the EU than any other country with its various opt-outs such as Schengen, the Euro, the rebate etc etc but it also (not any more thank you, Brex****) had a VETO. We were at the top of the tree and no doubt could have opted out or vetoed that.
 

 

You would have thought so but the succession of treaties have seen the veto become less powerful.

http://www.eu-facts.org.uk/arguments-by-topic/can-the-uk-veto-new-eu-laws/

 

The majority of EU laws (80%) is done by qualified voting and requires 35% of the remaining population to block. 

Quote

• 55% of member states vote in favour - in practice this means 16 out of 28
• the proposal is supported by member states representing at least 65% of the total EU population

 

Ever wondered why Germany and France are so dominant within the EU. With the UK leaving they will be able to take the EU in any direction they like, regardless of the remaining population of the other EU states as they simply can't get the figures required for the population count.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_population

 

Yet some people can see no harm in the EU and how undemocratic it can be but blindly follow instead.

[Sad555]

so the French let immigrants jump on vehicles and are violent to drivers coming into the uk but do nothing against French farmers  barricading motorways and stopping trucks coming into france.

[CWARD]

13 minutes ago, Sad555 said:

so the French let immigrants jump on vehicles and are violent to drivers coming into the uk but do nothing against French farmers  barricading motorways and stopping trucks coming into france.

 

To be fair they have tried to stop them and often criticised for being heavy handed in doing so.  The best course of action is to prevent migrants getting into Europe in the first place and that is by setting up processing centres in places like Libya where you can allow find and allow the asylum seekers in and block the economic migrants, as once they are in Europe they have all become asylum seekers and disposed of their ID so the bogus ones can't be deported easily. This is what the UK had been doing and was criticised by the EU for doing so and not allowing enough immigrants into the country. The EU has now changed tactics to what the UK has been doing and investing processing centres in Africa.   

[Sad555]

37 minutes ago, S00perb said:

The UK is not anything like an executive, more like a partner. And if a partner in a business has promised to put a further 20k into a business before leaving, he had better put it in

So we are a PARTNER that pays in more than most than most the other PARTNER states,so not an equal PARTNER .so when some other partners might leave for example, like say Greece,Portugal,spain.italy,poland Romania etc I can see there will be a problem paying their share back into the business,or will they be beholding to the power and control of for example a PARTNER like germany

[Sad555]

I do feel sympathy for people fleeing war torn countries when Britain has been too much involved in creating a situation.

[S00perb]

The great british BREXIT

Quote

UBS Will Trigger Its Brexit Contingency Plans ‘Early’ Next Year

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-27/ubs-will-trigger-its-brexit-contingency-plans-early-next-year

The Swiss firm already has a trading hub in Frankfurt, but will relocate employees

Ermotti said the bank has asked employees which city they would like to relocate to

Quote

JPMorgan

JPMorgan Chase said that it was planning to move “hundreds of people in the short term” from the UK to its three other European subsidiaries in Frankfurt, Luxembourg and Dublin.

https://www.ft.com/content/8799a0d4-2ff1-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

Quote

Standard Chartered

Standard Chartered has announced plans to establish a new EU subsidiary in Frankfurt, becoming one of the first banks to select Germany’s main financial centre as its alternative European hub to cope with the disruption of Brexit.

https://www.ft.com/content/8799a0d4-2ff1-11e7-9555-23ef563ecf9a

Quote

Deutsche Bank

A senior Deutsche Bank executive has warned that nearly half the German lender’s 9,000 staff in the UK could be forced to leave the country under pressure from regulators because of Brexit.

https://www.ft.com/content/b950b28c-2a9e-11e7-bc4b-5528796fe35c

Quote

Lloyd's of London

Lloyd’s has confirmed that it will open a new office in Brussels in response to Brexit. Faced with the loss of passporting rights from its London home, the insurance market has decided to put its new operation close to the heart of EU decision making.

https://www.ft.com/content/867ea638-a791-360e-8fc6-0003abbbd073

 

 

The knock on effect of these businesses going will have a VERY big impact and force other companies to move and many to fold.

The taxes paid by the high earner employees alone will be a major hit as well.

But the head in the sand brexiteers don't seem to care there will be less money about. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[vrskeith]

So Ford blame Brexit / Europe for poor performance.

 

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ford/101529/ford-blames-brexit-for-65million-european-loss

[S00perb]

24 minutes ago, Sad555 said:

So we are a PARTNER that pays in more than most than most the other PARTNER states,so not an equal PARTNER .so when some other partners might leave for example, like say Greece,Portugal,spain.italy,poland Romania etc I can see there will be a problem paying their share back into the business,or will they be beholding to the power and control of for example a PARTNER like germany

 

It certainly has been a very unequal partnership

The UK got exceptions to rules others had to abide by, we got a massive rebate, we make others jump through hoops to come into Uk when we can freely roam in the EU without showing our passports..........extremely unequal indeed

[S00perb]

49 minutes ago, Sad555 said:

so the French let immigrants jump on vehicles and are violent to drivers coming into the uk but do nothing against French farmers  barricading motorways and stopping trucks coming into france.

 

Wait till after the border is brought back to UK soil. Far harder then!

Why should a country be responsible for who leaves? Surely it is the responsibility of the country of entry not exit. Well post Brexit anyway

[CWARD]

3 minutes ago, S00perb said:

 

Wait till after the border is brought back to UK soil. Far harder then!

Why should a country be responsible for who leaves? Surely it is the responsibility of the country of entry not exit. Well post Brexit anyway

 

Or they could simply return them on the next boat, train or plane from where they arrived like many countries do with a letter stating why i.e. no passport, economic migrant etc.

 

You can tell Halloween is approaching as the scare stories are coming thick and fast.

[CWARD]

14 minutes ago, S00perb said:

 

It certainly has been a very unequal partnership

The UK got exceptions to rules others had to abide by, we got a massive rebate, we make others jump through hoops to come into Uk when we can freely roam in the EU without showing our passports..........extremely unequal indeed

 

Going to the dedicated EU residents line to show your passport is so much harder than going to any other queue and showing your passport. 

[Sad555]

36 minutes ago, S00perb said:

It certainly has been a very unequal partnership

The UK got exceptions to rules others had to abide by, we got a massive rebate, we make others jump through hoops to come into Uk when we can freely roam in the EU without showing our passports..........extremely unequal indeed

r u aving a laff  ,I can never remember ROAMING in or out of any EU country of late and not having a passport check or is this another Narnia traveller?

[Sad555]

38 minutes ago, S00perb said:

Wait till after the border is brought back to UK soil. Far harder then!

Why should a country be responsible for who leaves? Surely it is the responsibility of the country of entry not exit. Well post Brexit anyway

sorry my geography isn't very good and I didn't realise that Iraq,afghanistan ,Africa etc and all other non EU immigrants  was in FRANCE and is not the country of entry so have no responsibility as you say.

[S00perb]

15 minutes ago, Sad555 said:

r u aving a laff  ,I can never remember ROAMING in or out of any EU country of late and not having a passport check or is this another Narnia traveller?

What are you talking about?

I just went through France, Belgium, Luxemburg, Germany - the only time I had to show my passport was in and out of UK due to us being out of the common EU agreements. Most of the motorways in thje EU have absolutely no border building let alone a system to stop cars etc.

[skomaz]

2 hours ago, S00perb said:

 

HA - ! Much of my work involves tendering documentation and it is exactly the same - there is usually a clause which involves what happens if the two parties part ways. You take it or leave it.

1. We took the article 50 option in an already existing contract.

2. We work out what we believe we owe

3. They look at that offer and take it or leave it

This has nothing to do with future trade, but the CONS and newspapers are trying to make the connection.

May and co. don't seem to be able to get a figure together because of the internal backstabbing going on. Her "Strong and stable" leadership is weak and wobbly and useless in the face of needing to make a real decision.

EU is just waiting for us to state something very simple - how much?

 

Preparation of Tender Documentation and negotiation of a Contract post-tender are rather different and cannot be compared.  The tender documentation often simply forms the basis for comparison of quotes to a set specification / scope that may or may not subsequently change over time.  Negotiation of the Contract follows on from that initial comparison and selection.

 

You are correct though in that documentation generally includes break Clauses that can be involved but the usually do not fully specify the costs and ongoing commitments - usually noting a requirement that is open to independent arbitration or negotiation between the parties involved.

 

As noted above the normal course of events would be for both parties to set out what they think is owed to and from each other, taking into account all aspects, commitments and assets in an open manner that can readily be understood and checked / verified by the other party.  This rarely results in both arriving at the same value and hence there then follows a negotiation to reach an agreed final outcome, that is either acceptable to both or determined on a legal basis.

 

So...   in conclusion - I think you are letting your political beliefs cloud your view...

[S00perb]

2 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

Preparation of Tender Documentation and negotiation of a Contract post-tender are rather different and cannot be compared.  The tender documentation often simply forms the basis for comparison of quotes to a set specification / scope that may or may not subsequently change over time.  Negotiation of the Contract follows on from that initial comparison and selection.

 

You are correct though in that documentation generally includes break Clauses that can be involved but the usually do not fully specify the costs and ongoing commitments - usually noting a requirement that is open to independent arbitration or negotiation between the parties involved.

 

As noted above the normal course of events would be for both parties to set out what they think is owed to and from each other, taking into account all aspects, commitments and assets in an open manner that can readily be understood and checked / verified by the other party.  This rarely results in both arriving at the same value and hence there then follows a negotiation to reach an agreed final outcome, that is either acceptable to both or determined on a legal basis.

 

So...   in conclusion - I think you are letting your political beliefs cloud your view...

Except you have just agreed all the but with your final sentance

1. We took the article 50 option in an already existing contract.

2. We work out what we believe we owe

3. They look at that offer and take it or leave it

This has nothing to do with future trade

[CWARD]

11 minutes ago, S00perb said:

What are you talking about?

I just went through France, Belgium, Luxemburg, Germany - the only time I had to show my passport was in and out of UK due to us being out of the common EU agreements. Most of the motorways in thje EU have absolutely no border building let alone a system to stop cars etc.

 

I must have missed these hoops when I have to show my passport too to get back into the UK. He made it sound so difficult to get a passport out and show it to an official.