EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[@Lee]

3 minutes ago, Eddie-NL said:

That is because he spends all of his time reading between the lines. 

You should try it yourself some time. It's invariably where the truth lies.

[Eddie-NL]

Just now, Lee01 said:

You should try it yourself some time. It's invariably where the truth lies.

or it is complete nonsense when your fantasy doesn't add up

[@Lee]

7 minutes ago, Eddie-NL said:

or it is complete nonsense when your fantasy doesn't add up

Hey, you Brex****ters are the ones living in a fantasy, not me.
I know the UK's about to go tits up thanks to the undemocratic referenDUMB.
The experts have been saying it for long enough. The figures all point towards it. The fact (not fantasy) that the UK Govt won't release or make public the impact reports is proof enough. Go on, believe the fantasy that they don't want to 'show how (pi55 poor) their hand is.
You carry on hoping for the fantasy that Britain will rule the waves once more.
Believe the fantasy that we'll get by selling innovative jams on WTO rules.
Even the Ozzies and the Kiwis now will be doing better deals with the EU than us.......
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-trade-deal-eu-australia-new-zealand-european-parliament-vote-meps-a8020716.html
So, that's the US, Canada, Japan, Oz and NZ. Who else to trade with on more favourable terms? 

[@Lee]

Another one bites the dust.
Who wants to be there when the scheisse hits the fan?
Rats leaving a sinking ship.
 

Quote

The Brexit department has lost its third minister in four months after Baroness Anelay stepped down from the front bench on Friday.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-minister-resigns-baroness-anelay-injury-david-davis-eu-talks-leave-uk-government-house-lords-a8023326.html

[Eddie-NL]

12 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

Hey, you Brex****ters are the ones living in a fantasy, not me.
I know the UK's about to go tits up thanks to the undemocratic referenDUMB.
The experts have been saying it for long enough. The figures all point towards it. The fact (not fantasy) that the UK Govt won't release or make public the impact reports is proof enough. Go on, believe the fantasy that they don't want to 'show how (pi55 poor) their hand is.
You carry on hoping for the fantasy that Britain will rule the waves once more.
Believe the fantasy that we'll get by selling innovative jams on WTO rules.
Even the Ozzies and the Kiwis now will be doing better deals with the EU than us.......
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-trade-deal-eu-australia-new-zealand-european-parliament-vote-meps-a8020716.html
So, that's the US, Canada, Japan, Oz and NZ. Who else to trade with on more favourable terms? 

There you go again spouting out more nonsense

[skomaz]

3 hours ago, S00perb said:

'Reasonably confident' for a major project like that?!!

'Significant risks'

 

Plan B would be what exactly?

 

I guess that depends on how good their 'Plan A' is in terms of Risk Management   ...   they might not need Plan B...

[lol-lol]

3 hours ago, S00perb said:

'Reasonably confident' for a major project like that?!!    'Significant risks'       Plan B would be what exactly?

 

Yes it is quite worrying the comment being made by those tasked to deliver.   The NAO also have this as an Amber warning on this business critical process.

 

So UK customs will spend half a billion, we the industry will probably spend another half a billion on it also but as the figure mentioned there is reckoned to be another 5,000 HMRC staff needed and a similar amount in the international logistics industry to "enter" the customs movement details.

 

The plan B is not to retire the existing system, called CHIEF, and make it run with the new system, CDS, Customs Declaration Service.  Also to up-scale the CHIEF system to handle 200 million customs entries (Sup Decs) as well as CDS handling 200 million frontier Export and Import entries and between them it is hoped that we get through this.   As I mentioned further back in the thread a customs entry usually costs a few tens of pounds so an extra 300 million of them would add around of the order of £10 billion to the UK cost of doing business this side of the Channel.   Similar cost would be required on the other side of the Channel too.

 

The £10 Billion saving per year of leaving the EU not looking so smart now is it?  

Also got to factor in supply chain delays etc.

Where there is more process then there is all sorts of computing, comms, admin additional business to be had.

 

Have not even got in to the pre-dispatch process that companies are going to have to nip down the road get their origin document ie EUR1 (or maybe a GB1?) as well as do all the calculating and proving it does qualify as British and is not just a Chinese triangulated item avoid Anti-Dumping duty, Quota etc.

Fun, fun, fun.

 

[skomaz]

3 hours ago, S00perb said:

Some Leave voters will gladly forego full access to the Single Market in exchange for an end to freedom of movement. Others want to retain full access to the Single Market even if it means retaining freedom of movement (which it will). So some Leave voters will be dissatisfied whatever the deal that is finally struck and enough would vote remain for it to never actually happen.

 

 

That's working on the assumption that the leavers only ever voted on one aspect and, if they are dissatisfied in terms of that one aspect, they will change their mind and vote remain...   One hell of an assumption (presumption??) to make...   that people voted on the basis of their thoughts on one single aspect, namely freedom of movement...   but I guess if the authors of the article are trying to make things 'fit' their point of view it's easier to make such wild (unsubstantiated?) assumptions if it provides a convenient back up to the point they are trying to make...

 

As I've probably said previously most of the people I've spoken to who voted leave did so for a whole host of reasons, as opposed to just the one regarding movement.

[moley]

2 hours ago, Lee01 said:

I know the UK's about to go tits up thanks to the undemocratic referenDUMB.

What was undemocratic about the referendum?

As I recall everyone registered to vote could have voted.

Would it have been a democratic referendum if the result had been 52% - 48% in favour to remain in the EU?

[@Lee]

3 minutes ago, moley said:

What was undemocratic about the referendum?

As I recall everyone registered to vote could have voted.

Would it have been a democratic referendum if the result had been 52% - 48% in favour to remain in the EU?

Which bit shall I talk about?

The decades of the anti EU papers drip-feeding people anti EU nonsense on light bulbs and vacuum cleaners and bendy bananas and cabbage regulations?
The Leave.EU campaign, funded by dark money? The convenient escape for the 1% to escape the EU's forthcoming anti tax avoidance regulations?
The BUS! Ha! How could I forget that fat whopper? 
The list is endless. 
Farage thinks if things had gone the other way it would be 'unfinished business'.

[Ootohere]

Lord Duncan the MEP they made a Lord because he was needed to be a negotiator and who had failed to get a Westminster seat has really rattled the cage today.

Questions for The Gover to answer, and the others in the Brexit negotiations.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41775222 

[Eddie-NL]

3 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

Which bit shall I talk about?

The decades of the anti EU papers drip-feeding people anti EU nonsense on light bulbs and vacuum cleaners and bendy bananas and cabbage regulations?
The Leave.EU campaign, funded by dark money? The convenient escape for the 1% to escape the EU's forthcoming anti tax avoidance regulations?
The BUS! Ha! How could I forget that fat whopper? 
The list is endless. 
Farage thinks if things had gone the other way it would be 'unfinished business'.

Is that the best you can come up?

 

None of the above for me

[moley]

3 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

Which bit shall I talk about?

The decades of the anti EU papers drip-feeding people anti EU nonsense on light bulbs and vacuum cleaners and bendy bananas and cabbage regulations?
The Leave.EU campaign, funded by dark money? The convenient escape for the 1% to escape the EU's forthcoming anti tax avoidance regulations?
The BUS! Ha! How could I forget that fat whopper? 
The list is endless. 
Farage thinks if things had gone the other way it would be 'unfinished business'.

That does not make it undemocratic. 

[@Lee]

Just now, moley said:

That does not make it undemocratic. 

Fair point.

It makes a mockery of democracy. 

[S00perb]

36 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

That's working on the assumption that the leavers only ever voted on one aspect and, if they are dissatisfied in terms of that one aspect, they will change their mind and vote remain...   One hell of an assumption (presumption??) to make...   that people voted on the basis of their thoughts on one single aspect, namely freedom of movement...   but I guess if the authors of the article are trying to make things 'fit' their point of view it's easier to make such wild (unsubstantiated?) assumptions if it provides a convenient back up to the point they are trying to make...

 

As I've probably said previously most of the people I've spoken to who voted leave did so for a whole host of reasons, as opposed to just the one regarding movement.

Point is - only a VERY small % needs to change their minds - remember it was a very close run race

[S00perb]

47 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

I guess that depends on how good their 'Plan A' is in terms of Risk Management   ...   they might not need Plan B...

They have just stated how much confidence thery have in plan A:

'Reasonably confident' with 'Significant risks'

That is far from reassuring!

[@Lee]

1 minute ago, S00perb said:

Point is - only a VERY small % needs to change their minds - remember it was a very close run race

Not forgetting that a supermajority clause was totally forgotten about. And the fact that 16 year olds, ie the generation who'll have to live with it, had no say unlike in the Scottish referendum.

[S00perb]

20 minutes ago, moley said:

What was undemocratic about the referendum?

As I recall everyone registered to vote could have voted.

Would it have been a democratic referendum if the result had been 52% - 48% in favour to remain in the EU?

When an electorate is as woefully uninformed about the EU as they appear to be; when it is lied to, as was the case, by the press and the official Leave campaign, and when it falls for those lies, as many have. It is not democracy. Deceit, yes. Manipulation, yes. Fraud, yes. Democracy, no.

[Ootohere]

It was 16 & 17 year olds that never had a vote, and of those that did 23% or what ever the figure is did not vote.

So not really that much to mump on at really.

(EDIT, 72.2 % turned out to express an opinion or sent in a vote, many none UK Residents or maybe never to be ever again.)

Edited 27 October, 2017 by Headinawayoffski

[S00perb]

11 minutes ago, Headinawayoffski said:

Lord Duncan the MEP they made a Lord because he was needed to be a negotiator and who had failed to get a Westminster seat has really rattled the cage today.

Questions for The Gover to answer, and the others in the Brexit negotiations.

http://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41775222 

The EU Common Agricultural Policy is a massive deal to farmers. They have to jump through hoops to get some of the funding (good and well thought out hoops from what I have been involved in), and many of them are long term issues (e.g. don't cut hedges or leave areas of waste for nature along borders for X amount of years). Some are far more expensive agreements to invest in. They need to see the returns. The UK gov has no idea how complicated this is, how to administer it all - the farmers have no guarantees the UK gov will keep to agreements farmers have with the EU.

Bring on the townies to nay-say the worth of our farmers - but you will pay extra for food if the farmers decide to retire.

[moley]

7 minutes ago, S00perb said:

When an electorate is as woefully uninformed about the EU as they appear to be; when it is lied to, as was the case, by the press and the official Leave campaign, and when it falls for those lies, as many have. It is not democracy. Deceit, yes. Manipulation, yes. Fraud, yes. Democracy, no.

You clearly don't understand the basis of a democracy and you know exactly why everyone voted the way they did at the referendum. Most of the leave campaign myths had pretty much been debunked before the vote.

[S00perb]

11 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

Not forgetting that a supermajority clause was totally forgotten about. And the fact that 16 year olds, ie the generation who'll have to live with it, had no say unlike in the Scottish referendum.

AND now the younger people are seeing that the referendum was actually important they will effeminately vote next time

Walk over - hense brexiteers fear it

[S00perb]

Just now, moley said:

Most of the leave campaign myths had pretty much been debunked before the vote.

ummm - so why are they repeated every day here???

[moley]

Just now, S00perb said:

ummm - so why are they repeated every day here???

I only ever see the hard core remainers quoting those myths in the posts.

[@Lee]

Just now, moley said:

You clearly don't understand the basis of a democracy and you know exactly why everyone voted the way they did at the referendum. Most of the leave campaign myths had pretty much been debunked before the vote.

Which ones?
Which ones were openly debunked in the right wing media?
Remember that The Sun, Mail, Express are three of the biggest selling papers in the UK.
Did they publicly debunk them?
Remember that the biggest search term on Google on 24th June 2016 was 'what is the EU'.
It's only after the fact that people caught up. Hence Bregret.