Hi, this has probably been asked 100 times before but i’m struggling to find any evidence of definite fixes.

 

What I am looking for are the main causes of oil starvation to the turbo on these engines? I know the obvious causes for most cars like using the wrong oil, not changing it regularly, not allowing the car to warm up/cool down. But there must be something other than blocked feed and drain lines causing so many turbos to seize otherwise people wouldn’t be fitting 2 or 3 turbos to a car within weeks.

 

i’ve bought a 2005 fabia vrs from a friend, he owned it for around 6 weeks before the first turbo seized. He replaced it with a second hand one that was free and had very minimal play. This seized after two weeks.

 

i’m in the process of stripping the old turbo off and also the sump and oil filter housing off to clean everything (mainly pick up tube and relief valves) prior to running the new turbo. But just wondered if anyone had seen oil pressure relief valve or oil filter bypass valve failure on these engines before?

 

I’m an experienced mechanic so i’m aware of all the turbo related do’s and don’ts, i’ll be carrying out oil preaaure checks with the new turbo and oil lines fitted but i’m just looking for some fixes that people have done or had done to stop this in the past.

 

Apologies if this has been asked loads before but i’m struggling to find any real answers.

 

Thanks

Rich

Dont bother cleaning the pickup, replacement is far better as you'll never clean the old one fully. New one is not that expensive when compared to replacement turbos.

 

Maybe also be worth investigating the condition of the oil pump, although not sure bow easy that is to get to on the PD engine.

The whole warming up and cooling down thing is just so 1980's, these turbos don't have bearings, they have bushes and like the crankshaft the turbo shaft floats on a nice cool oil film, so as long as there's oil pressure the new turbo will be fine.

 

This failure is caused by fitting a used turbo, it's just so pointless and dumb, get a fresh refurb and all will be well.

22 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

The whole warming up and cooling down thing is just so 1980's, these turbos don't have bearings, they have bushes and like the crankshaft the turbo shaft floats on a nice cool oil film, so as long as there's oil pressure the new turbo will be fine.

 

This failure is caused by fitting a used turbo, it's just so pointless and dumb, get a fresh refurb and all will be well.

Thanks but the question asked wasn’t for a lesson on turbos and engines. It would also be appreciated if only answers related to the question asked were posted. 

 

How many turbos have you changed where both have seized in a matter of weeks? Both a recon and second hand one? And then when you search online you find that plenty of these engines suffer the same problem and garages/dealers keep fitting turbos every few months instead of fixing the fault?

I’ve also said the words ‘new turbo’ when stating what i’m fitting. I’m not a diy mechanic looking for speculations on why a turbo may have failed. I’ve asked for factual evidence of oil pressure faults on these engines causing oil starvation to the turbo. A forum might be the wrong place for this kind of information

Depends how the turbos failed. One scenario is remap, extra boost, followed by boost leak, overspeed and boom!

Check the pipework and the intercooler too, for leaks. It's not unknown for the factory i/c to get holed by misaligned or loose shrouding.

Might be worth doing an oil analysis on what's in there now, to see if there are any clues to what's going on from that.

1 minute ago, vindaloo said:

Depends how the turbos failed. One scenario is remap, extra boost, followed by boost leak, overspeed and boom!

Check the pipework and the intercooler too, for leaks. It's not unknown for the factory i/c to get holed by misaligned or loose shrouding.

 

I can’t be 100% certain but there is full history with a load of receipts, as far as i’m aware the car is standard with no remap. So i’m going towards oil starvation or poor crankcase breathing which would cause the oil to drain slowly or not at all causing the turbo to overheat. The recon turbo company have even said to check crankcase breathers as part of the warranty procedures as they have found it to be a common cause of turbo failure on these engines. I’ve got to remove all the pipework and intercooler to clean it all out so i’ll check it with a smoke tester.

 

5 minutes ago, Wino said:

Might be worth doing an oil analysis on what's in there now, to see if there are any clues to what's going on from that.

 

Yeah good idea, my mate changed the oil when he put the secondhand turbo on but it looks a lot older which is what makes me think the oil filter bypass is a possibility. I know diesel oil becomes black in colour pretty much instantly but it shouldn’t have the consistency this has. 

 

Without any proper checks i won’t know for sure. I’ll take photos of the checks i do when i strip the car further and if i can find a definite fault i will post it on here with pictures incase anyone else gets the same problem again

I'm half supportive and half not for your approach. Two failed turbos in a couple of months ownership is painful and you want to get to the bottom of it. Sure. I too would want answers.

The first, six weeks after purchase. Makes me think that possibly the seller had some knowledge or suspicion that all was not well and may have been getting rid. That may or may not be the case. I can't know.

The second, a secondhand unit rapidly failed. How carefully and thoroughly was it's condition checked. There must be some suspicion that you've simply been sold a second failing turbo.

Turbos live a hard life and many factors can be involved in failure. You have come to the conclusion that lack of lubrication to the turbo is the cause in both instances. Yes it is a common cause for turbo failure in any car but I don't see how you have come to the conclusion that this was the cause in both these failures. Did you strip both turbos and find clear evidence that two perfectly serviceable units had suffered oil supply failure?  You can only have a limited service history on the lives these two turbos have led.

I too would want a clear diagnosis which comes from history, examination and testing in that order before forming a conclusion to the cause of the failure bearing in mind the probability of there being multiple contributing factors.

I find all the posters above to be making useful comments and wouldn't dismiss any of them. Your thinking around oil supply failure is also wide ranging and aimed to pick up on the less common contributors to low oil pressure failure.

But I suspect you are being a bit rigid in assuming the turbos were both good and 'lack of lube' is the only thing you need to investigate. Thankfully the commonest failures occur most commonly and by fitting a good quality recon and ensuring there is no 'lack of lube' you will be 99% sure of fixing it.

22 minutes ago, LB123 said:

I'm half supportive and half not for your approach. Two failed turbos in a couple of months ownership is painful and you want to get to the bottom of it. Sure. I too would want answers.

The first, six weeks after purchase. Makes me think that possibly the seller had some knowledge or suspicion that all was not well and may have been getting rid. That may or may not be the case. I can't know.

The second, a secondhand unit rapidly failed. How carefully and thoroughly was it's condition checked. There must be some suspicion that you've simply been sold a second failing turbo.

Turbos live a hard life and many factors can be involved in failure. You have come to the conclusion that lack of lubrication to the turbo is the cause in both instances. Yes it is a common cause for turbo failure in any car but I don't see how you have come to the conclusion that this was the cause in both these failures. Did you strip both turbos and find clear evidence that two perfectly serviceable units had suffered oil supply failure?  You can only have a limited service history on the lives these two turbos have led.

I too would want a clear diagnosis which comes from history, examination and testing in that order before forming a conclusion to the cause of the failure bearing in mind the probability of there being multiple contributing factors.

I find all the posters above to be making useful comments and wouldn't dismiss any of them. Your thinking around oil supply failure is also wide ranging and aimed to pick up on the less common contributors to low oil pressure failure.

But I suspect you are being a bit rigid in assuming the turbos were both good and 'lack of lube' is the only thing you need to investigate. Thankfully the commonest failures occur most commonly and by fitting a good quality recon and ensuring there is no 'lack of lube' you will be 99% sure of fixing it.

 

Yeah i agree totally that the previous owner who sold it to my mate knew the turbo was on it’s way out. The second hand unit i didn’t fit or check but was apparently free moving with minimal play.

 

No i haven’t stripped both turbos and inspected for oil starvation but i have seen both the turbo he bought the car with and the one i have removed.

both have seized on the exhaust side and the compressor side has broken away and shattered to pieces. Typical signs of a turbo being seized due to excess heat/lack of oil.

 

Just to make a point, i have said that i’m looking at possible crankcase breathing issues as well and if as you say, having a good recon turbo and a good oil supply will fix 99% of the problem, then surely oil starvation is the majority of the problem? I’m also not assuming the previous turbos were good before seizing, the reason for the post is that i don’t waste a £300 recon turbo because of a possible common issue with oil supply

Might be an idea to check that the oil pressure switch is the correct one, just in case someone's tried to conceal a pressure problem by fitting a lower pressure one. Far fetched but worth a look?

Repeat turbo failure I usually down to contaminants in the oil, or low pressure. When changing the turbo it is advised (by the likes of BTN etc) to change the supply and return pipes, as well as any gauze filters that may be present (common cause of the 1.6 HDi PSA engine turbo issues). It is also advised to flush the system before changing it, then again after 500 miles with a new filter, also checking the inlet pipes/gauzes for debris.

 

Best option (as said) is to check the oil pressure (and switch) with an accurate gauge to see what you are getting compared to the official recommended figures.

 

It may be something simple like a gasket fitted the wrong way round, restricting the flow, or worst case, a knackered pump. Either way, best to get all new oil feed lines for the turbo (and any inline gauze filters)

53 minutes ago, Wino said:

Might be an idea to check that the oil pressure switch is the correct one, just in case someone's tried to conceal a pressure problem by fitting a lower pressure one. Far fetched but worth a look?

 

Yeah true and check that it’s even reading correctly. Sensor could be faulty and hiding a possible pressure issue when warm or being hidden by the wrong sensor as you say.

 

42 minutes ago, octyal said:

Repeat turbo failure I usually down to contaminants in the oil, or low pressure. When changing the turbo it is advised (by the likes of BTN etc) to change the supply and return pipes, as well as any gauze filters that may be present (common cause of the 1.6 HDi PSA engine turbo issues). It is also advised to flush the system before changing it, then again after 500 miles with a new filter, also checking the inlet pipes/gauzes for debris.

 

Best option (as said) is to check the oil pressure (and switch) with an accurate gauge to see what you are getting compared to the official recommended figures.

 

It may be something simple like a gasket fitted the wrong way round, restricting the flow, or worst case, a knackered pump. Either way, best to get all new oil feed lines for the turbo (and any inline gauze filters)

 

Yeah i agree mate. If i was able to run the engine up with the old turbo to put an oil flush in, i would have done that 100%. But because the shaft has snapped in half, oil is being pushed into the intake at a high rate.

 

I started the engine up (after two weeks stood) with the turbo - intercooler hose disconnected. It started up perfectly with no noises to indicate a fault with the oil pump, plus the amount of oil coming out the intercooler hose within seconds also indicates there is oil pressure there when cold but i don’t know how much. i’m also suspicious of the pressure/delivery when warm. 

 

These are the reasons i’ve asked for information on previous results as i have to fit a freshly recon’d turbo before i can run any pressure checks.

i’ll be priming the pump by turning the engine over by hand when everything is fitted and also priming the oil to the turbo by hand so that i know i have some sort of oil supply before risking it. This is also part of the warranty spec for the turbo now too.

 

Not sure where any other gauzes are fitted to these engines but i agree they need replacing if there is any. (Other than oil pump pick up obviously)

 

cheers

Also have two genuine filters and recommended quantum oil to run it up with, which i will flush the first load out with and replace with the second filter and oil

Sorry if i missed it so much information and various odd points in some posts.

 

So what is the Oil the friend used 

and what exactly is the recommended Quantum you have?  

20 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

Sorry if i missed it so much information and various odd points in some posts.

 

So what is the Oil the friend used 

and what exactly is the recommended Quantum you have?  

 

Unsure of the exact oil he used if i’m honest. I have got quantum platinum 5w40. Exactly the same as the vag branded oil from what i’m told

There you go. Most common cause of failures.  Not finding out the most basic points of servicing and maintenance.

Why are (some) people being so downright rude to this new member? It's embarrassing.

5 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

There you go. Most common cause of failures.  Not finding out the most basic points of servicing and maintenance.

 

Does that explain the first turbo failing in exactly the same way only weeks before this one? When the receipt for an oil change only 6000 miles ago has had a recommended oil used? 

There is that world 'Recommended' again,

and when you ask someone what exactly was recommended they are not sure.   It is like groundhog day.

World? You mean word?

i’ve just told you what the oil is that i’ve got for it. The Exact same oil as vag use.

 

For what reason do i need to know the exact wording of the oil he used? When it will probably not be one that you think is suitable seeing as you’re the expert on oils.

 

perhaps the oil is tested to higher standards than vw 505 01? Is that more understandable

 

i’ve got receipts for what oil has been used up until he owned the car, which was in the engine when the first turbo failed, then replaced with his oil only to do exactly the same again.

 

If you’ve got no factual information to give on the fault then whats the point in crying over the oil that was used after one of the failures?

17 minutes ago, Wino said:

Why are (some) people being so downright rude to this new member? It's embarrassing.

 

The reason genuine dealer/manufacturer trained techs usually stay clear of forums. 90% people who own a car, 10% people who know how they work

Edited 18 December, 20178 yr by Rich_m

To be honest it’s pointless anyone responding to this post as the majority of it is opinion rather than any previous experience of the fault. Thanks to the people with useful info

Plenty qualified motor mechanics, motor engineers and technicians on this forum. Even enthusiasts that know as much and probably more.

Ones with all the gear and an idea and not just 'Manufacture trained fitters'.

Another great response. Looks like you enjoy posting absolute *******s on most pages. Give it a rest will ya

 

Probably best to leave this page to die off cause it’s mainly *******s and opinion and when it’s challenged becomes a pointless comment back

8 hours ago, Rich_m said:

Thanks but the question asked wasn’t for a lesson on turbos and engines. It would also be appreciated if only answers related to the question asked were posted. 

 

How many turbos have you changed where both have seized in a matter of weeks? Both a recon and second hand one? And then when you search online you find that plenty of these engines suffer the same problem and garages/dealers keep fitting turbos every few months instead of fixing the fault?

I’ve also said the words ‘new turbo’ when stating what i’m fitting. I’m not a diy mechanic looking for speculations on why a turbo may have failed. I’ve asked for factual evidence of oil pressure faults on these engines causing oil starvation to the turbo. A forum might be the wrong place for this kind of information

Hey, if you're so desperate to be taken seriously, if your entire professional status depends on it then don't talk rubbish about warming up and cooling down then.

 

I'm simply making the point that if there's oil pressure present then the turbo will float, just like the crank will.

 

Therefore it isn't a failure related to lack of oil pressure and you're barking up the wrong tree. In every way.

 

Good luck.