5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

............................>

 

Journey from Heathrow to Worcester just now, traffic round Heathrow and thru Worcester dent the average speed with the start stop urban driving.

 

Have you compared that figure with a brim to brim test? The reason I ask this is because Skoda's figures for the 1.4 are 46.3 urban, 65.7 extra urban & 56.5 combined. 

I have achieved 56.5 mpg (brim to brim)  in the Wifes 1.2 tsi Fabia with a Skoda figure of 58.9 combined.

3 hours ago, moley said:

Have you compared that figure with a brim to brim test? The reason I ask this is because Skoda's figures for the 1.4 are 46.3 urban, 65.7 extra urban & 56.5 combined. 

I have achieved 56.5 mpg (brim to brim)  in the Wife's 1.2 tsi Fabia with a Skoda figure of 58.9 combined.

 

I know I can get over 600 miles from the Octy Mk 3's little 50 litre tank before I need to fill up so the 58 mpg average for a tankful's of mixed driving is fair.

The official mpg figures from Skoda for the 2017 1.4 TSI (manual and DSG) are as below....   

Only 9% less than the 150 hp 2 litre wiesel Octy 3 which is 4% slower accelerating. 

 

FUEL CON 2017 1.4 TSI (150hp)      1.4 TSI Manual        1.4 TSI DSG            150 hp diesel DSG

 

Urban - mpg (1/100km)                        42.2 (6.7)                 47.1 (6.0)                    54.3 (5.2)

Extra urban - mpg (1/100km)              65.7 (4.3)                 67.3 (4.2)                     68.9 (4.1) 

Combined - mpg (1/100km)                54.3 (5.2)                 57.7 (4.9)                      62.8 (4.5)

PERFORMANCE 0 to 60 mph - secs        7.8                            7.9                                8.2

 

Best I have got in to Octy Mark 3 tank is 49 litres (compared to 52 litres in a Fabia 2 VRS which was easy to use the expansion volume !).

Have got 630 miles range out of the Fabia VRS, Worc to Glasgow and back. 

If one could drive in an entirely extra urban journey for a whole tankful I expect 700 miles from my Octy 3's weenie tank would be do-able translating to a real (not car info system) 67 mpg I am confident would be got.  Car's info system would show about 70 mpg but that would be an overstatement as we know car systems do by a few percent.  

What has Skoda figures to do with anything, nobody is driving to anyplace as Skoda figures were achieved?

http://skoda.co.uk/pages/fuel-consumption-statement.aspx

 

If you set off at 9am this morning you will still be in the same building at 10am if you were using the car the way that the test was done.

2 hours ago, Offski said:

What has Skoda figures to do with anything, nobody is driving to anyplace as Skoda figures were achieved?

http://skoda.co.uk/pages/fuel-consumption-statement.aspx

 

If you set off at 9am this morning you will still be in the same building at 10am if you were using the car the way that the test was done.

 

I reckon I get pretty much exactly what the manufacturer figures are.

 

The problem is the user in most cases that they are too stupid to understand what the  result actually mean.  Hence the change to WLTP to make it  closer to what Users  will get.

 

The previous published manufactures results relate to

 

1. having no warm up phase
2. driving in a way that has no abrupt acceleration or wasteful braking   

   

Most people do very short journeys and the warm up phase (about 2 miles for a petrol and 4 miles for a diesel) spoil their results.  They drive with jerky motion and therefore like jerks.  EVs will suit most people who basically cannot be trusted to drive dirty ICE cars in urban areas. 

 

 Found small diesels quite hard to get to their manufacturer figures as it was just some difficult to keep frustration under control and then mpg plummeted from the lofty car makers figures but still achievable even though very painful to do so, unlike mid sized engined petrols. Petrols tend to only need to be about 75% the capacity of a diesel to give the same or better performance it can be seen by the figures. 

 

Some very large scale average data reported here (over the last year), with some links on the right side of the page to entertain the EV fanatics:

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/average-mpg

Diesel outperforms petrol in mpg terms by, on average, a little over 19%.

13 minutes ago, Wino said:

Some very large scale average data reported here (over the last year), with some links on the right side of the page to entertain the EV fanatics:

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/average-mpg

Diesel outperforms petrol in mpg terms by, on average, a little over 19%.

 

There are so many things wrong with this study I  find it difficult to get a full list together.

 

1. Some car owners buy small petrol cars just for tootling about, non turbo, where more diesel are bought as mileage munchers so the journeys these cars do are often different, apples and pear, both fruit but..
2. Data appears to be for Germany and therefore includes roads where one can drive at 130 kph, 200 kph, 300 kph so not so relevant to the UK where one get Speed Awareness course for doing 80 (128)  in a 70 (113).
3. It might include some real performance petrol cars. in lists I have seen of the top 50 there is often no diesel car in those lists so again the results are skewed by the  diesel being most mid sized, junior exec cars A4, 3 series, C class, where as the petrols are made up of  lots of non turbo city cars and real performance cars Astons, Bugati, Ferrari, Lambo, Mclaren etc, no diesels here.

 

All  that said I would probably have a diesel in Germany, hope I get a nice one on my drive from Bladel to Frankfurt in a few days time.  When diesel fuel in Europe is  10 to 20 % cheaper than petrol and one can drive at much higher speeds than the UK, diesels  make perfect sense, as long as one does not have a social conscious on their emissions  of course.   

 

Europe needs to adopt a similar taxation policy diesel/petrol to the UK if they seriously want to kill off the diesel quicker for the sake of its citizens health but then their cities are much smaller than London, Birmingham. so not quite the health toll.  

Spritmonitor is a German website, but not restricted to German users.

Your small list of objections to the data all seem pretty feeble, I'm afraid.

It's a huge data pool, possibly one of the biggest available.  If you think it's all wrong, maybe it's you that's wrong instead?

59 minutes ago, Wino said:

Some very large scale average data reported here (over the last year), with some links on the right side of the page to entertain the EV fanatics:

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/average-mpg

Diesel outperforms petrol in mpg terms by, on average, a little over 19%.

 

interesting site. I've never seen the MPGe measure before, seems to be a US thing. Not sure if I count as an EV fanatic either :-)

 

Looks like my car does around 118 MPG but I've got no idea how you work out what you're doing. The car dashboard displays miles per kWh and I just try to keep that number as high as possible and recognise that engaging in Traffic Light Grand Prix will make it drop like a stone

 

It's hard to argue against the fact that diesel engines are more efficient than petrol - like for like of course 

 

 

For me this threads (now) argument seems to be really about cost and if you take the cheaper price of petrol, then the mpg/£ is closer between the two types. Otherwise, unless you are driving to the shops as your only motoring, I can't' see how diesel loses the mpg debate. 

Edited 5 October, 20187 yr by Lady Elanore

1 hour ago, Lady Elanore said:

It's hard to argue against the fact that diesel engines are more efficient than petrol - like for like of course 

 

 

Technically speaking, diesel inherently has about 20% more energy content per litre so latest modern petrol engines can rival many diesels in true "efficiency". In the UK Diesel is sold 20% cheaper on a joules per litre basis but the government hasn't realised it yet.

 

One area petrols can't compete efficiency wise is when idling, when they're forced to run with a virtually closed throttle (with high pumping loss) and a need to run a  stoichiometric mixture. Diesels dont need/use a throttle, and the air/fuel ratio of a diesel engine always is leaner than stoichiometric.  So diesels will idle with a fraction of the fuel a petrol engine requires.

 

Start stop partly addresses that difference by cutting out idling.

Edited 5 October, 20187 yr by xman

For City & Urban Deliveries it might be the death of diesel sooner than later.

 

Lots of Diesel Transporters going to be required to deliver the delivery vans and minibuses from city to city or different locations hundreds of miles of k/m apart.

or driving them there would be taking a day or several days with limited travel time and long charge times.

 

 

 

Edited 5 October, 20187 yr by Offski

38 minutes ago, xman said:

 

Technically speaking, diesel inherently has about 20% more energy content per litre so latest modern petrol engines can rival many diesels in true "efficiency". Diesel is sold 20% cheaper on a joules per litre basis but the government hasn't realised it yet.

 

One area petrols can't compete efficiency wise is when idling, when they're forced to run with a virtually closed throttle (with high pumping loss) and a need to run a  stoichiometric mixture. Diesels dont need/use a throttle, and the air/fuel ratio of a diesel engine always is leaner than stoichiometric.  So diesels will idle with a fraction of the fuel a petrol engine requires.

 

Start stop partly addresses that difference by cutting out idling.

 

 

Agreed^^ hence when you add the pump price things are closer, but in the sheer numbers, like for like..........diesel wins the day in most conditions. 

Edited 5 October, 20187 yr by Lady Elanore

I just did a double check on the Euro status of my diesel as it came out around the change over period to Euro 6. Thankfully I'm safe for now. 

2 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

 

 

Agreed^^ hence when you add the pump price things are closer, but in the sheer numbers, like for like..........diesel wins the day in most conditions. 

 

Not in Depreciation any more. 

Depreciation is now running at twice to three times fuel costs. 

Have a check on Fleetnew website, it is an eye opener.....  https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/car-running-costs-calculator 

6 hours ago, Wino said:

Spritmonitor is a German website, but not restricted to German users.

Your small list of objections to the data all seem pretty feeble, I'm afraid.

It's a huge data pool, possibly one of the biggest available.  If you think it's all wrong, maybe it's you that's wrong instead?

 

Results from a bunch of unscientific users using unscientific methods rather than than carried out in lab condition and also comparing two different process ie one with a non measured warm up phase and one without warm up phase and all the extra fuel that uses without any cognizance of engine state of maintenance, other with a new engine just run in. One at ambient and one in depths on winter and summer with all the irregularities that brings.

 

I suggest your preferred data to trust is more Oxfordshire Comprehensive school standard than Oxford University standard.   

Holy Crap Batman. Black is white and up is down. 

 

My diesel car currently has depreciated better than the petrol version and is currently running with £3k equity in it over the PCP GFV

Edited 5 October, 20187 yr by Lady Elanore

I love the way these threads develop. Studmuffin says he is pleased with the excellent diesel economy he gets and then everyone piles in to say that petrol is better, but when diesel is show to be more economical, any other factor that can detract from this fact, or discredit diesel is posted. 

 

Studmuffin, your economy is excellent and I doubt you would get better if you had a petrol car - which is basically what you were saying several posts ago  I think the detractors secretly agree with you too  

 

 

DISCLAIMER: I refer to studmuffin's post not that I expect that to matter to some   

39 minutes ago, Lady Elanore said:

Holy Crap Batman. Black is white and up is down. 

 

Welcome to the weird and wonderful world of Quantum mechanics

 

(DIYers using Quantum oil) 

Clockwise is anticlockwise!!.....roundabouts are going to be a nightmare.

4 minutes ago, Lady Elanore said:

Clockwise is anticlockwise!!.....roundabouts are going to be a nightmare.

 

Apparently both at the same time, and an infinite number of other ways too.

 

Decisions, decisions...

 

Don't put your cat in a box....

Edited 5 October, 20187 yr by xman

At least I wont be caught speeding as if they know how fast I was going, they wont know where I was....or something like that  

I reckon even you could manage to input km driven for a given number of litres refilled lol-lol; so maybe you could be eligible to add to the ongoing dataset on Spritmonitor.de

Maybe you'd struggle though as there may not be a field to enter lots of obfuscatory drivel?

38 minutes ago, xman said:

 

Apparently both at the same time, and an infinite number of other ways too.

 

Decisions, decisions...

 

Don't put your cat in a box....

No one puts their cat in a box until you open it 

Edited 5 October, 20187 yr by stever750

Where can I buy this legendary Toyota Starlet diesel, Wino? 

 

Can I use it transport 5 adults and a dog with suitcases (the adults' not the dog's)

 

Think of the money I could save.....

Do you think the chemical and thermodynamic advantages of diesel go away when larger/heavier vehicles are considered?