DPF Issue - advice needed

[Geoff1959]

2013 Skoda 2.0L tdi

 

Checked DPF usage with VAG App and it reported 100% +16%

Yellow flashing coil indicator on dash and now Eng management light is on.

Apparently the flashing coil symbol is a pending or incomplete regen?

 

Monitored in real time going home yesterday and and input temp got up to 500c.

Consistant 3000 revs did go into regen as could see increased fuel input and also a a reduction to 100% +4%.

However the input and output temperatures both fell back to around 250c and the regen failed to complete.

 

The consensus was to try a DPF clean however looking at the site below the suggestion is that as its over 90% the is basically Knacked.

It would also mean speculating £250.  The question being would it be better to buy a new or secondhand DPF?

S/H DPF £150 - £200  new one £450 ish both excluding fitting at 1 1/2 hrs labour?

 

Talking to our fleet garage it does seem that its not getting hot enough for long enough 700c plus has been quoted to me.

They also went on to ask if I had had any Glow plug issues as these are often used in the regen process? (anyone know if this is the case?)

 

Over to you guys and girls any ideas.

Maybe I should give it CPR?

 

Geoff

 

This site suggests at 90% is knackered.?

https://advancedmotorcare.co.uk/vehicle-servicing/dpf-servicing

 

What if I don't have the DPF Regenerated ?

Once the Engine Management Fault / DPF Fault Indicator has illuminated this indicates the DPF has not been regenerated through the normal driving range of the vehicle and requires manual/static regeneration.

Failure to have the regeneration completed at this stage could render the filter itself beyond repair and require complete replacement. A DPF that reaches 90% or approx. 45 grams full will be beyond regeneration and require complete replacement.

Depending on your vehicle make and model a failed Diesel Particulate Filter can cost upwards of £1000 to replace.

[langers2k]

Any chance of a screenshot from the VAG DPF app?

 

A VCDS autoscan would also be helpful.

 

I don't believe glow plugs have anything to do with regeneration on a CR engine, instead, extra diesel is injected post combustion if needed.

[Mike97]

What is showing 100% + is it the top bar like in my picture? as I have mine go over 100% it just means it has not done a full regen yet mine has gone over the 100 when low on fuel. The oil ash volume is the one that is telling you it is near life end once that starts showing high values mine on the pic is 10%. It does seem strange why yours seems to start a regen then stops.

[peter_k]

I found this on a VW forum - I don't have a link. It's posted here ( not my source) https://www.macanforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=7682&start=30 .  Searching for a link turned up that the author is now "Head Of Service Operations at McLaren Automotive Ltd"

  

 

VAG DISESEL PARTICULATE FILTERS 

Courtesy of David Bodily Volkswagen Technical Support Specialist 

Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) 

Detailed below is important information outlining the function and features of the Diesel Particulate filter which all members of your team need to be aware of. 

Diesel particulate filters are becoming more commonplace on diesel engines, particularly sizes 2.0L upwards. This is in order to reduce the exhaust emissions as required by European legislation. 

The prime reason for a DPF is to reduce particulate matter entering the atmosphere. Particulate matter is found in the form of soot, which is produced during diesel combustion. The DPF traps most of the soot which would normally travel down the 
exhaust and into the atmosphere. The DPF can hold a certain amount of soot, but not a huge quantity and therefore it needs to go through a process called ‘regeneration’ in order to clear the soot loading. When the soot goes through a ‘regeneration’ process it will be converted to a much smaller amount of ash. The ash is non-removable. There are two types of ‘regeneration’, passive and active. 

During long motorway journeys, passive regeneration will occur. This needs no intervention from the engine control unit. Due to the raised exhaust temperatures on a long journey (temperatures between 350 and 500°C), the procedure occurs slowly and continuously across the catalytic-coated (with platinum) DPF. The catalytic-coated DPF is situated close to the Engine, therefore the exhaust gas temperature is high enough (500°C) to ignite the soot particles. Due to this soot is burned-off and is converted into a smaller amount of ash. 

Active ‘regeneration’ is when the ECU intervenes when the soot loading in the DPF is calculated to be 45%. The procedure lasts for about 5 – 10 minutes. Specific measures are taken by the ECU to raise the engine exhaust temperature to above 600°C, these include switching off the exhaust gas recirculation and increasing the fuel injection period to include a small injection after the main injection. The soot particles are oxidised at this temperature. 

The ECU will trigger a regeneration process, if for some reason this is aborted, ie. customer slows down, stops etc, the process will be resumed when regeneration conditions are once again met, above 60km/h (38mph). This will continue for 15 minutes. 

If after 2 attempts of 15 minutes, a successful regeneration has not been possible, the loading will increase. At 50% soot loading, the ECU will continue to maintain maximum exhaust temperatures of 600°C to 650°C to cause a regeneration process. The system will try to run a regeneration process for 15 minutes. If unsuccessful, the system will repeat this process for a further 15 minutes, if still unsuccessful, the DPF light on the driver display panel will then be lit. 

The owners handbook states, the DPF symbol lights up to indicate that the diesel particulate filter has become obstructed with soot due to frequent short trips. When the warning lamp comes on, the driver should drive at a constant speed of at least 60 km/h for about 10 minutes. As a result of the increase in temperature the soot in the filter will be burned off. If the DPF symbol does not go out, the driver should contact an authorised Volkswagen repairer and have the fault rectified. 

At 55% soot loading the DPF light is lit on driver display panel. At this point the customer should follow the advice in the handbook. If they ignore this information and continue driving the vehicle until the soot loading reaches 75% without successful regeneration, additional warning lamps will light up. At this point the customer will also be complaining of lack of power, etc. 

At 75%, regeneration is still possible with the use of the VAS tester. Only when the loading is above 95%, is it necessary to replace the DPF unit. 

Operating Status System Response 
45% DPF Load Level 1 
- Normal Regeneration 
50% DPF Load Level 2 
- Regeneration at maximum exhaust 
temperatures 
55% DPF Load DPF lamp 
Regeneration from 60 km/h 
onwards 
("See operating manual") 
75% DPF Load DPF, SYS and MI lamp 
Torque limitation, EGR 
deactivation, 
Regeneration via VAG tester only 
95% DPF Load Replace the DPF Unit 

The Warranty department has confirmed that if there is no fault on the vehicle and DPF regeneration has been unsuccessful due to the customers driving style and the 
customers failure to comply with the instructions in the handbook, DPF replacement will not be paid for by warranty. 

Common causes for complaint 

• Frequent short journeys – Regeneration conditions are not met. Not recommended for sale in the Channel Islands and inner city driving.

• Customers who continue to drive the vehicle with DPF light on – Continued driving with the DPF light on and without successful regeneration results in excessive soot loading of the DPF, to a point where it is above 95% loaded. At this point regeneration is not an option and replacement of the DPF is 
necessary. 

• Fault 18434 particle filter bank 1 malfunction – Common fault code. This does not only relate to the DPF itself, but the entire exhaust gas handling system. This can be caused by defective temperature sensors, pressure sensors, additive 
system components (if applicable), poor connections, wiring issues, etc. 

Important Information 

• Before diagnosing a problem vehicle or attempting to perform an emergency regeneration, it is important to obtain a full diagnostic log and read out relevant measured value blocks. These MVB’s contain important information on the condition of the DPF system and are essential in diagnosing the fault. When the DPF light is illuminated, it does not necessarily mean that the DPF requires regeneration. For further advice, please contact Technical Support with the information from the diagnostic log and MVB data. 

• If a problem vehicle arrives with the DPF light, the engine management light and the emissions light on. If during your diagnosis and reading of relevant MVB’s, you find that the soot loading exceeds 75% (but is still below 95%), an emergency regeneration procedure must be performed with the VAS tester. Further to this, the customer needs to be educated. They need to understand why the lights have appeared on the dash panel. Their attention needs to be brought to the owners handbook instructions, so that they are aware of what the DPF light means and what to do when it appears. This should prevent unnecessary repeat visits for regeneration purposes. 
David Bodily 

Volkswagen Technical Support Specialist

[Geoff1959]

As requested here is latest log file and also the readout on the DPF app.

 

looking at the post above seems like a new DPF is the answer. Ouch.

Log-PN63FLA-TMBKJ7NE0E0026737-212734km-132186mi(1).txt

[langers2k]

When the app says 100% on the top bar, that means it's due a regen. Showing 100% + 14% isn't a worry on it's own, it just means it's ready to regen when the conditions are correct. The soot mass is 24.36g so it should still be able to perform a regeneration as it's much lower than the 45g max.

 

A bigger concern is the faults in your engine, if there are issues with the exhaust temperatures that'll certainly be stopping the regeneration from taking place.

- I'd clear the codes and take it for a 'regen drive' and see if you can get a full regen done. 

- If the codes come back, you need to get the sensor and wiring tested and hopefully fixed.

 

The next possible issue is it the oil ash residue. At 78.1g it might be near it's theoretical max (80g) although I've never seen Skoda/VAG state this as the maximum. You can try having it cleaned but you're still going to have issues until the exhaust sensor is fixed.

 

[ChoonDoode]

Best thing to do would be to give it an Italian Tune up. Get the exhaust system boiling hot and that will greatly improve the regeneration.

 

A tank or two of quality fuel is always recommend. Fuel additives......I wouldn't for a DPF issue. You can get some which say they reduce the temperature needed for the DPF to regenerate, but I'm skeptical. I've only ever used redex just to give the fuel system a clean through.

 

If you're able to, go out and give it a jolly good blast on a country road. The best ones are were you're going from fast to slow to fast to slow. Encourages the engine to perform and has you going up and down the rev range.

[Geoff1959]

Thanks everyone I'll give it a run today. Anybody know where abouts in the exhaust system the sensors that are showing as iffy are located? 

Where can I get a complete wiring diagram from? 

I'm really impressed by how knowledgeable and helpful people on this forum are. Thanks. 

 

[Geoff1959]

Looking at the error codes thrown up on the scan

The one that seems most interesting is the Exhaust temp bank 1 it looks as if this also monitors temperatures around the DPF.

Where abouts is this sensor is it in the DPF?  

Is it within the capabilities of the average joe to test sensors and how do you do that?

 

 

18111 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S1
          P2237 00 [232] - Pump Current Open Circuit
          MIL ON - Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00000001
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 3
                    Mileage: 212552 km
                    Date: 2018.10.02
                    Time: 16:59:38

 

8621 - Sensor 1 for Exhaust Temp Bank 1 (G235)
          P0544 00 [040] - Circuit Malfunction
          Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00000001
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 28
                    Mileage: 212511 km
                    Date: 2018.10.02
                    Time: 16:00:57

 

5260 - Sensor 1 for Exhaust Temp Bank 1 (G235)
          P0544 00 [168] - Circuit Malfunction
          MIL ON - Intermittent - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
             Freeze Frame:
                    Fault Status: 00000001
                    Fault Priority: 2
                    Fault Frequency: 119
                    Mileage: 212566 km
                    Date: 2018.10.02
                    Time: 18:32:43

Engine speed: 1506.00 /min
                    Normed load value: 65.1 %
                    Vehicle speed: 40 km/h
                    Coolant temperature: 70 °C
                    Intake air temperature: 65 °C
                    Ambient air pressure: 1010 mbar
                    Voltage terminal 30: 14.400 V
                    Unlearning counter according OBD: 40
                    Turbocharger 1 turbine inlet: temp. sensor 1 bank 1: raw value: 1000.0 °C
                    Turbocharger 1 turbine outlet: temp. sensor 1 bank 1: raw value: 567.5 °C
                    Particle filt.inlet temp.sens.1 bank 1: raw value: 221.3 °C
                    Particle filter outlet temp.sens.1 bank 1: raw value: 82.2 °C
                    Shut-off timer: last engine shut-off time: 4457 s

 

Regards,

Geoff

 

[Mike97]

Looking at the vagdpf screenshot you have done just over 132k miles and the dpf oil ash is at 98% full you can't lower the oil ash content so looks like its maybe time for a new one.

[langers2k]

132k seems a little early for a DPF replacement but I do agree it appears to be practicably full based on a 80g maximum. What sort of driving do you do and does it use much oil?

 

If there are also sensor issues they'll need sorting first as it'll just cause issues for the new DPF. Have you tried clearing the codes and going for a drive to see if they come back? All three are flagged as intermittent so they might stay away long enough for a regen.

 

I'd expect them to be around the exhaust manifold/DPF area so you might access them from the engine bay. Easiest way to identify each one it probably to unplug it and see what code comes up.

 

The workshop manuals might help: https://erwin.skoda-auto.cz/erwin/showHome.do

[jjc]

Geoff,

 

the locations are all shown in the engine PDF I gave you :-)

From what I can see they are all around the DPF and come up to sockets on the firewall and are orange and black

 

John

[Guest J_D]

132k does seem early.... 

I'm on 76k and have just over 30% showing for the oil ash residue. 

 

I'll get a screenshot I can at some point. 1.6 diesel in my car btw. 

[Gabbo]

What is the history of the car? owned from new, just bought it 2nd hand, private/dealer etc.

 

There was a thread on here maybe 6 months back of a guy with similar problems having just bought his O3 from a official-dealer but non-Skoda.

Long story short, the car had been clocked & although the mileage was ~100k it was in reality >200k and the DPF ash load showed the real story.

 

[Saints92]

Yeah, I know a lot of people who've been able to get "clock stop" on their cars without any fuss at all. Only counts every second mile.

 

Bit disappointed folk are willing to do it tbh.

[Geoff1959]

Update

John and I have looked at the log files and done some further tests.

Moving forward i have it booked into the garage for them to take a look at the exhaust gas temp sensor. Will let you know if that solves it. 

[Geoff1959]

Good news - It managed to do a full regen and all fault lights are currently out.

I'm pretty sure that there is a dodgy/intermittant problem with one or more sensors so still going to get those checked out.

Overall the DPF looks in much better state than it did before.

Looking forward to seeing what it does on the rolling road day.

Thank you for all who replied previously.

 

[cmcm789]

Geoff are you getting it on the rolling road without any tuning or mods? I would be very interested to see what power the 2.0 puts out as standard. Is yours the 150hp version?

[Geoff1959]

Yes

4 hours ago, cmcm789 said:

Geoff are you getting it on the rolling road without any tuning or mods? I would be very interested to see what power the 2.0 puts out as standard. Is yours the 150hp version?

Yes will be going to Portsmouth. It is an ex ambulance rapid response vehicle. As far as I know its bog standard 150hp.

[jjc]

I had mine on last year bog standard 150, came out at 162 :-)

I will be down with Geoff if he comes out less than 162 I may have to laugh a bit, though he has done a few more miles than mine.

 

John