EV real world range and cost to charge

[Ootohere]

@22 minutes 'cost'.

Personally i am not a 'Starbucks' for 2 people having Regular Drinks & a Pastry & £15 a throw.

I did pay out last week a couple of times that crazy prices.

Usually i have Cold drinks and munchies or hot drinks and even more munchies with me as no point bothering about the cost of a charge and blowing crazy money. 

But i am tight and buy 100 gram jars of coffee that cost me less than £1.  & bags of 5 doughnuts at about the same.

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 June, 2023 by toot

[Luckypants]

With 40% still in the car, why wait at Rugby for a charger? They could have gone up the road to the next set of chargers (e.g. Hilton Park) Didn't charge overnight at their stay. People still thinking in petrol station 'fill-ups' terms, even when they have an EV. Also with the coffees etc. it seems like they don't go very far normally and come across as nervous drivers / travellers. Found myself rolling my eyes a few times.

[Lady Elanore]

8 hours ago, toot said:

@22 minutes 'cost'.

Personally i am not a 'Starbucks' for 2 people having Regular Drinks & a Pastry & £15 a throw.

I did pay out last week a couple of times that crazy prices.

Usually i have Cold drinks and munchies or hot drinks and even more munchies with me as no point bothering about the cost of a charge and blowing crazy money. 

But i am tight and buy 100 gram jars of coffee that cost me less than £1.  & bags of 5 doughnuts at about the same.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just more people showing me why I won't be going EV any time soon. I'd lose my job or gain 40lbs if I had an EV. 

 

On a slightly positive note, My car had a software update last month and it was claimed to help the range of the batteries. I was very, very sceptical, as during winter the claimed range around town was "up too" 39 miles, yet the reality was around 15-17. Anyhoo it's a lot warmer now and the range is easily mid 20s now, perhaps a bit more and the range shown on the dash is a little bit more accurate. I guess I'll have to wait until winter to see the truth behind the update. 

[Ootohere]

I was charging today and got talking to a couple with a Vauxhall Mokka Electric they got in March.

They were / are so disappointed with the car and wish they had not made the error of getting it.

 

I asked the lady what the issue was and it was lack of performance and range and chargers because they like going north on trips, around the North & North East of Scotland.

 

I asked how she drives and she says in ECO all the time and i asked why.

Well the Salesperson set it in ECO for her and she has never changed it and other settings were set by her son and she just drives.

 

So i showed her that her car starts in D, Drive and unless she pressed the Switch to change to ECO she has never been in Eco.

She has never used Sport, knows nothing about it, nothing about regen or going into B.

Yet in her previous car she had 'Coasting' function and knew how to nip on and 'Coast' or drop a gear or 2 and slow down.

 

I showed how the screens worked and quick steps like touch the touch screen with 3 fingers to bring up the different functions.

 

This was while we were both on 7 kW chargers and she said they have a charger at home and how many hours they spend charging on trips.

They were told not to use Rapid chargers, never been on a CCS, never pulled the cover off so that they knew what the CCS looked like.

 

There must be many many being sent out with BEV,s and PHEV,s from dealerships with no knowledge of the vehicles they just got.

[Lady Elanore]

An M&S foodie place that I sometimes frequent (it's on a retail park), has just had a load of charge points added. They are all Tesla ones

 

Now, as most of them are still covered with wrapping, I can't vouch that they are all CCS chargers, but it is annoying if they are. Most EVs and PHEVs aren't Teslas, but unless it is one of those Tesla share stations, some of the points can do type 2, or you have a pretty modern EV with compatible CCS charging (see earlier point), it's no use to you. 

 

I'll wait and see, but it doesn't look good so far. 

 

Maybe I'll get that V8 before I retire, after all  

[wyx087]

3 hours ago, toot said:

dealerships

The problem right there!

And people's unwillingness to learn new things.

 

2 hours ago, Lady Elanore said:

They are all Tesla ones

Are they tall stalls with short cable? CCS rapid chargers, 50-50 if they will support other BEV's.

Or small wall-box with long cable? Type 2 destination chargers, there will always be a few bays supporting other plug-in vehicles.

[Ootohere]

Dealership Sales Executives driving BEV Demonstrators home to a charger or no charger and back to work and plugging them in at work has been the issue for years now.

Maybe not Tesla Sales People. but other manufacturers sales staff that do not have the cars for personal / family use / trips. 

Clueless to charging / charging networks and public charging, and even to the cars equipment and features.

This applies to Service Staff as well in many instances. 

They do not know the products, just as has been the case with ICE vehicles for long enough, they do usually know the difference with a diesel or a petrol but as far as manuals vs auto,s / semi-auto,s not so much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 24 June, 2023 by toot

[Lady Elanore]

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

The problem right there!

And people's unwillingness to learn new things.

 

Are they tall stalls with short cable? CCS rapid chargers, 50-50 if they will support other BEV's.

Or small wall-box with long cable? Type 2 destination chargers, there will always be a few bays supporting other plug-in vehicles.

 

 

They are the tall ones and the few that are uncovered (probably by interested parties) are CCS types. The others are still unmolested. 

[wyx087]

On 23/06/2023 at 21:49, toot said:

Maybe not Tesla Sales People.

 

They do not know the products

I was at Tesla owners club event at Bicester today. Test drove a 1.99s to 60mph Model S plaid with silly impractical unusable yoke steering wheel. The accompanying person didn't know the difference between autopilot HW3 and HW4.

They can be everywhere.

 

Though to be fair, Tesla HQ hasn't released any info. Everything I've learnt is from hackers taking apart the kit.

[domhnall]

On 08/06/2023 at 22:27, wyx087 said:

That sounds defective. I've never had any sort of veering without autopilot. Even with assistive tech such as lane departure, the driver is always in full control without autopilot.

 

With autopilot, it only had problem when being used outside its comfort zone, it tried to follow the yellow chequered box in a junction.

 

Tesla say it is designed to do that, basically it will avoid collision if it can. They said it was a feature of the software and that since it is still in beta it cannot be expected to be flawless yet 

[Ootohere]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 June, 2023 by toot

[lol-lol]

Tesla pushing the EV technology onwards again with tweak to battery chemistry which should give 10% more range plus all the revisions in the Model 3 and Y.

How will non Tesla manufacturers keep even vaguely in touch with Tesla ?

 

I think 80 miles is wrong, at best 80 kms with the combination of 66 kWh up fro 60 kWh but also lighter and a host, about 30 I gather, of other improvement, ie aero, lighter other components etc.......

 

think  

[PetrolDave]

15 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

How will non Tesla manufacturers keep even vaguely in touch with Tesla ?

Two Tesla owners I know have the answer to that - sack their UK support network and start again. They love the cars when they work, but when they need any repair work their local centres are appalling.

[lol-lol]

13 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

Two Tesla owners I know have the answer to that - sack their UK support network and start again. They love the cars when they work, but when they need any repair work their local centres are appalling.

 

To be fair I find that with nearly all car dealership personnel. Renault Delearship asked me to test drive the new Austral and it started with my question about the powerplant which even the head salesperson did not have right the details. Ever thus.

[PetrolDave]

6 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

Two Tesla owners I know have the answer to that - sack their UK support network and start again. They love the cars when they work, but when they need any repair work their local centres are appalling.

 

6 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

To be fair I find that with nearly all car dealership personnel. Renault Delearship asked me to test drive the new Austral and it started with my question about the powerplant which even the head salesperson did not have right the details. Ever thus.

One Tesla owner even went so far to say he regretting changing from his previous BMW as the BMW dealers were so much better.

 

Tesla need to remember the lesson of how the Japanese car makers grew brand loyalty - in the early days their cars were mediocre and no more reliable than European cars but the Japanese car makers recruited dealers that cared so having them fixed/repaired was a much less painful process.

Edited 1 July, 2023 by PetrolDave

[skomaz]

It might help if Tesla screwed thier cars together better as well...   Most I've seen look like they've been in accidents with misfitting panels, albeit the newer ones are better.

[lol-lol]

On 01/07/2023 at 19:58, skomaz said:

It might help if Tesla screwed thier cars together better as well...   Most I've seen look like they've been in accidents with misfitting panels, albeit the newer ones are better.

 

Quite sure that TESLA could make closer fitting panels if it was a priority but their priority appears to be make cars with the highest efficiency, taking the least time to produce so they can get them out to buyers ASAP, high level crash performance, cost efficiency which allows them to continue reduce the retail price as part of a process to push other car marques out of the market which looking at sales, facts like VW lowering its EV production on top of VW's massive corporate debt makes it look like car makers like VW do not have much time left in the mainstream car production business. Similar for BMW and Mercedes.  Maybe some European HQ'd companies may survive, those who are already well established with production facilities in Asia.   

 

Musk's companies do this below, improving panel fit is perhaps not their highest priority ?  

 

[wyx087]

On 01/07/2023 at 19:58, skomaz said:

albeit the newer ones are better.

Yes, the Made in China ones seems to be on-par with all other cars on the road.

I'm feel the Made in Germany ones might be even better.

 

I think it's only the American ones are problematic. (up to early 2021 for M3's)

[Ootohere]

I will put this here rather than in a Tesla Model 3 thread, as it might be helpful.

 

 

[lol-lol]

7 hours ago, toot said:

I will put this here rather than in a Tesla Model 3 thread, as it might be helpful.

 

Wow, the savings in servicing over those 200k miles.  The level of performance still. I followed this key guy for a couple of years and I would happily let him service my Zoe, might well do.  I hope he sets up a national, including Scotland as I have seen him up there several times in his videos, as he is, perhaps, and mobile fixers like him, the answer for the future rather than those dealers who take a big slice of new and second hand sales and do a pretty poor job of servicing and whose knowledge is basically pants.  

 

Interesting vid and good contribution to the overall argument for TESLA if not EVs.  Did not comment about the panel fit, wonder why ?

 

[wyx087]

I chatted to James at Fully Charged Live and saw him at Tesla members event. Very nice bloke, the company (Cleevey) does nation-wide EV mobile servicing. I asked about early Model Y suspension upgrade to Tesla's latest rev parts, they said they've already done it for one client. I also asked about Leaf servicing, it depends on work done, but the quoted prices is very reasonable. Comparable to servicing at cheaper independent garage, a lot cheaper than Nissan dealer prices. 

 

Next year, I will probably ask them to do a 2-yr servicing on my MY and maximum servicing, inc coolant and brake fluid change, on my Leaf. 

[xman]

Tesla found to have deliberately exaggerated range and created a secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints

 

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

 

https://queso.prod.reuters.tv/rest/v2/queso/static/id/572630/mp4

 

Edited 27 July, 2023 by xman

[wyx087]

Interesting report, strange they are picking out Tesla. In the screenshots of the video all Tesla did was provide EPA or WLTP ranges. Same as every other car manufacturer. 

 

I can't comment on appointment cancellations, but unlike other auto makers, Tesla can do remote diagnostic. So from outside it may feel like shoulder shrugging. 

 

 

Quote

In March, Alexandre Ponsin set out on a family road trip from Colorado to California in his newly purchased Tesla, a used 2021 Model 3. He expected to get something close to the electric sport sedan’s advertised driving range: 353 miles on a fully charged battery.

When has any vehicle actually achieved advertised MPG/range in non-ideal conditions? 

 

Quote

Tesla was fined earlier this year by South Korean regulators who found the cars delivered as little as half their advertised range in cold weather. Another recent study found that three Tesla models averaged 26% below their advertised ranges.

Many traditional car journalist doesn't seem to understand that to get most out of the car, pre-condition it before leaving. It is widely accepted in EV circle that Tesla's efficiency (and thus range) seems to suffer the least from temperature variations out of all EV's. 

I seems to recall the same correction were requested on Korean cars: https://evfleetworld.co.uk/hyundai-kona-electric-driving-range-corrected-to-279-miles/

 

Quote

Data collected in 2022 and 2023 from more than 8,000 Teslas by Recurrent, a Seattle-based EV analytics company, showed that the cars’ dashboard range meters didn’t change their estimates to reflect hot or cold outside temperatures, which can greatly reduce range.

That's the whole point! Instead of displaying a guess range based on unknown variables, Tesla display a consistent value based on usable charge remaining. The latter is much more deterministic and useful than a value that drops by 50% just because I was driving up hill for 1 mile. 

 

Personally, I never look at range estimates. I completely ignore the guess-o-meter in my Leaf, I set my Tesla to show %. The only thing I take note is sat-nav estimated arrival %, and it has always been within a few % for me, no matter the condition.  

 

Quote

All five Tesla models tested by Edmunds failed to achieve their advertised range, the website reported in February 2021. All but one of 10 other models from other manufacturers exceeded their advertised range.

This bit is interesting, until you go and read Edmunds test methodology: 60% urban and 40% highway. https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html

 

I don't know about you, I find my first-gen 24 kWh Leaf has plenty of range for urban uses. The reason I buy a bigger battery EV is for driving longer distances on "highway". So the only efficiency value that I'm interested in for EV's are the highway efficiency. 
I'd take the Bjorn's 1000 km test over any traditional car journalist every time. 

[PetrolDave]

On 27/07/2023 at 16:15, wyx087 said:

Many traditional car journalist doesn't seem to understand that to get most out of the car, pre-condition it before leaving.

And that will also apply to most new EV buyers who expect to just "get in and drive', so the complaints over range not meeting expectations/quotes will continue and probably even get louder.

[Ootohere]

^^^ exactly.  And in the UK most EV,s being bought might well be driven by people who never bought them but just drive them.  Companies / businesses / local authorities etc leased or bought. So Employees have them as a works vehicle, cars or vans.     I am sitting charging free on a 11 kW AC.  Next to me are 6 NHS leased EV,s.  All plugged in and none are charging.   None are a Tesla. When who ever gets the keys comes out to drive them they will be fully charged and have 150-200 mile plus range and might only do a few miles before next plugged in again.   Same thing in winter and none will be pre conditioned.    Thousands of EV,s never get Pre-conditioned because they are not at someone's home plugged in and they might not have the cars App on their phone to even start remotely heating the interior.  No manager or caretaker pre conditioning them. There is real world and there is ideal real world conditions and many do not operate in that world. 

Edited 2 August, 2023 by toot