The Official Brexit Thread - The Transition Period.

[CWARD]

5 minutes ago, moley said:

Has the EU actually imposed any penalties on those countries for refusing the quotas? 

 

Still going through the ECJ as far as I know. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/eu-takes-action-against-eastern-states-for-refusing-to-take-refugees?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42270239

 

[Eddie-NL]

2 hours ago, moley said:

In the words of Terry Thomas 'What an absolute shower' 

 

Does rather sum up the whole debacle

[Chorlton]

18 hours ago, CWARD said:

 

Source: Bryan Gould ex Labour MP

An excellent response to this in the comments section of the same Blog.

 

"Let us be quite clear. Treating ‘the will of the people’ as sacrosanct does not apply to a decision balanced on a pinhead, with the slight majority being heavily influenced by lies, damn lies and some dodgy statistics that centred on the emotional matter of large funds that would go to the chronically ill National Health Service. What a piece of political skulduggery – to run down essential services to the people, and the whole welfare provision, then to hold out false promises to get people to vote against their own interests. And the lies were promulgated by Farage who has repeatedly been reported in the media as consorting with USA people on-the-make in the private health bonanza business, along with Big Pharma.

Holding up the referendum decision (which was not even binding) as the Holy Grail containing the combined wit and wisdom of the British voters, is risible. And very saddening to see. How far have our political principles fallen, after generations of education of the people, that we cannot discern falsity and trickery behind political actions and statements, which amount to legerdemain and manoeuvering at the highest levels of our democracy amongst the trusted powerful."

[Kenai]

8 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

Still going through the ECJ as far as I know. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/13/eu-takes-action-against-eastern-states-for-refusing-to-take-refugees?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42270239

 

You should be careful not to conflate freedom of movement with refugees and asylum seekers. They're not the same thing and shouldn't be discussed as such. 

 

 

[CWARD]

20 minutes ago, Kenai said:

 You should be careful not to conflate freedom of movement with refugees and asylum seekers. They're not the same thing and shouldn't be discussed as such. 

 

 

 

I haven’t, just free of movement of workers and their families as I stated. The quotas set by the E.U. for immigrants wasn’t part of any treaty.

Asylum seekers shouldn’t be under any quota and never have been but the way the UK has dealt with this has been mostly from immigration centres overseas where people can claim for asylum. Their claim is then dealt with there to prevent false claims. When Blair brought up the issue of immigration when he addressed the E.U. Parliament, the UK was ridiculed as racists for this method. This method is now the policy of the E.U.  a decade later as it cuts out the people smugglers who profit on other people’s misery. It also reducing the risk from these smugglers due to sea crossing and other methods of smuggling whilst protecting them from a life of slavery once they have arrived to pay off the smuggling gangs. 

[CWARD]

28 minutes ago, Chorlton said:

An excellent response to this in the comments section of the same Blog.

 

"Let us be quite clear. Treating ‘the will of the people’ as sacrosanct does not apply to a decision balanced on a pinhead, with the slight majority being heavily influenced by lies, damn lies and some dodgy statistics that centred on the emotional matter of large funds that would go to the chronically ill National Health Service. What a piece of political skulduggery – to run down essential services to the people, and the whole welfare provision, then to hold out false promises to get people to vote against their own interests. And the lies were promulgated by Farage who has repeatedly been reported in the media as consorting with USA people on-the-make in the private health bonanza business, along with Big Pharma.

Holding up the referendum decision (which was not even binding) as the Holy Grail containing the combined wit and wisdom of the British voters, is risible. And very saddening to see. How far have our political principles fallen, after generations of education of the people, that we cannot discern falsity and trickery behind political actions and statements, which amount to legerdemain and manoeuvering at the highest levels of our democracy amongst the trusted powerful."

 

Nice quote but also ignores the fact that parliament voted to honour the referendum in March 2017 and in doing so Art 50 was triggered after the Miller court case to allow parliament to decide rather than TM. 

 

As it also states the will of the people is not sacrosanct then does that not make a people’s vote pointless?

 

As Bryan Gould stated the votes and new laws that have delayed and prevented any deal  been made has in the main been to over turn Art 50 and political gains between parties. This why over three years later we are still nowhere near to resolving Brexit and will be in limbo for a long time to come. 

[CWARD]

56 minutes ago, moley said:

Has the EU actually imposed any penalties on those countries for refusing the quotas? 

 

Whilst it seems that Hungary has been found guilty, the commission hasn’t been able to penalise them yet as Poland has used their veto to protect them.  

[Aspman]

3 hours ago, moley said:

The reason Corbyn doesn't want an election is because he's not sure that he would win. As bad as the Tories have been over the last few years Corbyn's Labour Party has been very poor opposition. I know some life long labour voters that voted lib dems last time because of Corbyn. 

 

I think this is true. The Tories have at the very least a very stong core message, "A vote for us is a vote to leave the EU".

Labour have nothing like this they have no firm stance on anything relating to Brexit. There was a great comment on the Guardian where someone went into detail about just how confused and conflicted the Labour message is leaving many votors just what they would be voting for if they voted Labour. Also Corbyn is just unelectable to many floating voters seen as a Maxistm elderly antisemitic student radical with links to terror organisations.

 

The opposition vote is also split between Labout with its Momentum core and a halo of voters holding their noses to vote for Corbyn AND the hard Remain vote looking to LibDems in the England/Wales and SNP in Scotland.

 

If the tories lose any election it'll be to a coallition government and will it be acceptable to the English/Welsh majority to have the balance of power held by the SNP in Westminster.

 

Even if that happens the price of the deal will be a second indy ref in Scotland which might well go through.

 

We're in for 10yrs of madness no matter what happens I think.

 

 

[Ryeman]

You really don’t deserve our leftovers -

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-09-05/tony-abbott-wants-europe-to-take-on-his-migration-ideas/11480758

[Ryeman]

Is Corbyn anti Semitic or simply anti Likud, who for their own political purposes are not the least bit interested in any peace process because it keeps getting them elected.

 

on that basis George Soros is also anti Semitic.

Edited 5 September, 2019 by Ryeman

[Ryeman]

I suspect the young will be out in force like never before.

[Aspman]

12 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

Is Corbyn anti Semitic or simply anti Likud, who for their own political purposes are not the least bit interested in any peace process because it keeps getting them elected.

 

on that basis George Soros is also anti Semitic.

 

Doesn't really matter if he is or isn't he's being painted as that by elements of the press

 

6 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

I suspect the young will be out in force like never before.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/04/more-than-100000-people-apply-register-vote-youth-uk-general-election

[CWARD]

Problem with Corbyn, he is weak. A view taken by the electorate as Labour should have wiped out the Tory's at the last GE but couldn't manage that. The rest of parliament don 't rate him hence his rejection for plans of caretaker government with him as PM. Despite years of asking for yet an another GE he has bottled it. As Aspman said no one knows what Labour stands for anymore as they change their mind so often it hard to keep up even by those who do it for a living, even within the party they don't know what their stance is.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-labour-second-referendum-corbyn-starmer-remain-eu-a9080131.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-general-election-snap-labour-jeremy-corbyn-boris-johnson-no-deal-a9091986.html

 

The support Labour had from the young fast disappeared after making big political gains after campaigning in the last GE that they would wipe out student loans before back tracking that it wasn't on their manifesto when highlighted just how financially crippling it would be. Further appeals to the young like they had done with the Glastonbury festival fell flat on it's face when they tried to have a Labour festival. Even the Guardian couldn't manage to big it up, calling it a sell out and packed but their own photos showed just the opposite with just a few hundred at most.

 

The GE will be a win win for Lib Dems taking the remain vote and Brexit Party for leave who this morning were talking about coalitions with Tory's. Labour will cease to be the official party of  opposition, not that many would notice anyway.  

[gadgetman]

2 hours ago, BigJase88 said:

Jeremy Corbyn is not a leader is he.

wouldn't want him in charge of my local pub football team

 

can the queen not just step in and tell everyone to shut the f up and just get us to leave herself, I would if I were in her shoes.

No the queen cannot do this and would do this. 

 

Everyone is bemoaning parliament being sovereign over the Brexit issue, and claims are people still support Brexit and everyone knew the question meant no deal. 

 

So put it to the people, final say vote and move on. 

 

What are leavers so scared of? 2/3 of the paper would be leave! 

[gadgetman]

Carelessness moves firmly to sheer Incompetence by Boris 

 

 

[@Lee]

Quote

There is mounting anger in the Conservative party at the expulsion of 21 anti no-deal rebels and the role played in the “purge” by Dominic Cummings, the prime minister’s de facto chief of staff.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/05/conservatives-rising-anger-at-cummings-role-in-purge-of-brexit-rebels
Lost control of Parliament, lost every vote in two days, lost control of his own party and lost his brother.
Is this the 'Boris bounce'? 

[CWARD]

8 minutes ago, gadgetman said:

What are leavers so scared of? 2/3 of the paper would be leave! 

 

As another peoples vote won't be any more binding than the previous one. Why not put it to a GE as it is with Tory's manifest of leave and Labour currently remain. Who ever wins then they would hopefully have the numbers to push it through parliament were it matters. 

[gadgetman]

2 minutes ago, Lee_Esq said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/05/conservatives-rising-anger-at-cummings-role-in-purge-of-brexit-rebels
Lost control of Parliament, lost every vote in two days, lost control of his own party and lost his brother.
Is this the 'Boris bounce'? 

Apparently senior party Faithfull are demanding Cummings is fired. Today 

[gadgetman]

3 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

As another peoples vote won't be any more binding than the previous one. Why not put it to a GE as it is with Tory's manifest of leave and Labour currently remain. Who ever wins then they would hopefully have the numbers to push it through parliament were it matters. 

Unlike the last one, make this one legally binding. Simple. 

 

A general election would be a farce. Boris could, as he always does, promise anything and as is usual in general elections tear up those promises and the manefesto on day 1.

 

A general election is a rouse by Boris and even hard-line Brexiteers are starting to question a general election 

[Ryeman]

Boris is all about bluster, there is no content beyond feathering his own bed.

Have the Conservatives ever been so bereft of talent?.

[CWARD]

The previous peoples vote became legally binding in March 2017 when it was voted through parliament. It's been anything but simple. You would need a clause in, that if it was leave won again, that all MP's must honour the outcome and work toward a deal within a timeframe or leave without a deal if a deal couldn't be agreed. This would never happen.

Edited 5 September, 2019 by CWARD

[Ryeman]

The (young) remain element will turn out if there is a next time.

[CWARD]

Just now, Ryeman said:

The (young) remain element will turn out if there is a next time.

 

 A big assumption that didn't happen at the referendum. GE or European Elections. Either the young can't be bothered or too much emphasis is on the presumption that the young want to remain.

[shyVRS245]

10 minutes ago, gadgetman said:

Apparently senior party Faithfull are demanding Cummings is fired. Today 

Is that a FACT or HEARSAY?

[@Lee]

Had the 2016 referendum been non advisory it would have been overruled due to the illegality and fraud.
'IF' there's a second referendum then there needs to be a supermajority of 60/40 or even 70/30.
As Farage said, 'if remain win by 60/40 that's the end of it but if remain win in a 52/48 referendum then this won't be over'.