Turbo Swap Choices for EA211 1.2 TSI

[m1kemex]

Sure, we all want lots of power. But for me, to upgrade my car (Rapid) to match the same amount of power of the larger VAG cars (Jetta / Golf / Octavia) would be more than enough because the other goal of mine is to do so without making maintenance for the vehicle too complicated (such as attempting to retrofit an EA888 engine). I want to be able to service my car with stock parts, just borrowed from other models.

 

According to your input, in order to hit around 150 HP of power, I have three options:

 

1) Keep the CJZD 1.2 engine, and work from there.

 

2) Upgrade to the CZCA/B 1.4 125 HP block, and work from there.

 

3) Swap everything for a CZDA/B 1.4 150 HP version.

 

Option 1: Keeping the existing engine

 

From what others report, it seems possible to just upgrade the turbo and do a custom map, but it's complicated at the moment, because there is some incompatibility between the readily available turbo units and the amount of displacement provided by the engine. Summarized, they simply doesn't blow enough pressure at low RPMs to spin up the turbine, and then supplies way too much pressure at higher RPMs.

A variable geometry turbo would probably solve this issue, and the first idea that comes to mind is to transplant the turbo from the new 1.5 TSI. However, there i still a mismatch of displacement (a larger one, in fact) and proper operation is not warranted. However, there is an alternative. The standard turbo design is modular and it seems like there is no necessity to alter either the turbine cartridge or the exhaust side of the casing. It should suffice, at least in theory, to built a custom intake casing with the variable flaps. Since this doesn't spin like the turbine, it doesn't require the same amount of accuracy, and it doesn't use exotic materials such as inconel. Therefore, it should be possible to build such a thing in a standard mechanical shop.

 

Conclusion: the least expensive path, but complicated due to reliance on custom parts, so it kind of defeats the goal of keeping things stock.

 

Option 2: Upgrade to the 1.4 125HP bloc and work from there

 

What happens if you bolt a large standard turbo into a CZC? I guess you won't experience the low RPM lack of power others have reported, yet boost would be sustained longer than with the medium standard turbo, for some extra power? The way I see, this is the path to take if you want to avoid messing with the electronics, since you don't have to figure out how to handle extra features of the 150HP version with the existing ECU. It should require a custom map, though.

 

Conclusion: It is way more expensive and complicated to swap the entire bloc, and also more wasteful. What do you do with the old bloc? Results, however, are kind of warranted with this option and I can see why @TheFozzy opted for this.

 

Option 3: Swap everything for the 1.4 150HP

 

With this option you're essentially copying the entire drive train of a different car. Issues are unlikely, since all the parts are already meant to work that way. But this is the most expensive option of all.

 

Will an ECU from the 1.4 150HP engine play well with the rest of the electronics of the car? Who knows.

 

General stuff:

 

Can features like the regulated oil pump or the variable exhaust timing be retrofitted into the 1.2? Not that it's too important to do so, but it would be nice to explore that possibility, because I'm pretty sure it would have an overall positive effect on the engine (if it becomes more efficient, it has to burn less fuel to produce the same amount of power, and that not only increases your mileage, but also reduces the wear and the possibility of cooling issues).

 

I've noticed that CZC (125HP) has a higher compression ratio than the CZD (150HP). And both CJZ (110HP) and CZC engines use the same type of Lamba probes, but the CZD user a different type. Are there other differences that I'm missing?

 

P. S. I'm checking data from here: https://www.upownersclub.co.uk/attachments/ssp-511_the_new_ea211_petrol_engine_family-pdf.7106/

[fabdavrav]

2 hours ago, m1kemex said:

 

 

3) Swap everything for a CZDA/B 1.4 150 HP version.

 

 

 

 

Or use a 140PS 1.4lt (CHPA)....the only difference is the software...& the 140PS version easily makes 150PS from the factory without any modification.

 

The 150PS 1.4lt is more commonly available with the complex "ACT" mechanisms. (Active cylinder Management, auto cylinder shut off) which under certain conditions disengages sections of the camshafts of 2 cylinders to be able to run on 2 cylinders only. This 1.4lt 150PS ACT engine is coded as CPTA.

 

If you use the 140/150PS engine you will need to fit the MQ250 gearbox as its what they come with from the factory..or fit a much stronger MQ350...

 

Quote on the 140/150PS engines from the VAG self study guides:-

"In the 1.4 l 103 kW TSI engine, which is subject to a
higher load, this is, a forged steel crankshaft. It
features five bearings, four counterweights and a
main bearing and conrod bearing diameter of
48 mm. To reduce the weight even further, the conrod
journals are hollow-bored. Together, these measures
reduce the inside forces on the crankshaft and
therefore the load on the main bearings."

 

 

All the 4cylinder EA211 engines have stepless adjustment upto 50deg of crank angle on the inlet camshaft...however the 140/150PS versions also have stepless adjustment upto 40deg of crank angle on the exhaust camshaft.

[pedro1987]

Hello, I have a 1.2tsi spaceback to which I put a 1.4tsi 150hp turbo, apr coils, downpipe, revo stage 1 reprogramming, intake forge motorsport and I have another car compared to the same stock.

[m1kemex]

On 15/02/2023 at 05:57, pedro1987 said:

Hello, I have a 1.2tsi spaceback to which I put a 1.4tsi 150hp turbo, apr coils, downpipe, revo stage 1 reprogramming, intake forge motorsport and I have another car compared to the same stock.

 

That's nice and encouraging. Care to share more details?

 

What engine did you have? Which engine did you install? Where did you get it? How much did it cost?

 

Did you change the transmission too?

 

What issues did you have to overcome?

Edited 17 February, 2023 by m1kemex

[m1kemex]

Can a moderator please delete my last post? I misread it. I thought Pedro had swapped te entire engine...

[m1kemex]

On 15/02/2023 at 01:01, m1kemex said:

A variable geometry turbo would probably solve this issue, and the first idea that comes to mind is to transplant the turbo from the new 1.5 TSI. However, there i still a mismatch of displacement (a larger one, in fact) and proper operation is not warranted. However, there is an alternative. The standard turbo design is modular and it seems like there is no necessity to alter either the turbine cartridge or the exhaust side of the casing. It should suffice, at least in theory, to built a custom intake casing with the variable flaps. Since this doesn't spin like the turbine, it doesn't require the same amount of accuracy, and it doesn't use exotic materials such as inconel. Therefore, it should be possible to build such a thing in a standard mechanical shop.

 

Just to give you guys an idea of what I'm talking about:

[Andre_db87]

On 15/02/2023 at 12:57, pedro1987 said:

Hello, I have a 1.2tsi spaceback to which I put a 1.4tsi 150hp turbo, apr coils, downpipe, revo stage 1 reprogramming, intake forge motorsport and I have another car compared to the same stock.

That is a nice intake! I thought they didn’t actually make this for the Fabia…as far as the bolts you used I guess that is right😂… How doe the APR coils feel ?

 

I finally got my car taken care off, I got the downpipe with a 200cell Cat the Forge intake and the bigger 1.4turbo..which resulted in just over 182hp and 277Nm. I am so happy with this, it just has become this fun sleeper car with just enough power to put a smile on your face. Although I wished there was a intercooler kit to keep it from heatsoaking in this hot conditions…but ah well can’t complain for that small engine. Ohw also I wished someone would have warned me that it would turn into Darth Vader with that intake😂 that will turn the heads of most people…

[RapidSK]

Hello,

I have 1.4 large turbo installed on 1.2tsi Skoda Rapid,downpipe without cat,and remap.But its only 151Hp and 211Nm.Boost pressure is set only to 1,08bar.If the value is higher,in higher rpm its overboostet and power going down.

 

Please,can you give me advise,if its problem standard MAP senzor,or what can do this complications?

 

Many thanks

[FabiaGonzales]

22 minutes ago, RapidSK said:

Hello,

I have 1.4 large turbo installed on 1.2tsi Skoda Rapid,downpipe without cat,and remap.But its only 151Hp and 211Nm.Boost pressure is set only to 1,08bar.If the value is higher,in higher rpm its overboostet and power going down.

 

Please,can you give me advise,if its problem standard MAP senzor,or what can do this complications?

 

Many thanks

You need it properly custom tuning to increase the boost, the 1.4 turbos can handle 1.5 bar boost and hold that pretty steady up to around 5000rpm on the 1.2's, you should be able to reach 180bhp with a custom tune

[RapidSK]

Thank you for reply. I have read all this topic more times,but I still have some questions.

Whats causes overboost problem?

Its necessarry change MAP senzor?

What does it mean custom tune?

 

Thank you again

 

 

[FabiaGonzales]

43 minutes ago, RapidSK said:

Thank you for reply. I have read all this topic more times,but I still have some questions.

Whats causes overboost problem?

Its necessarry change MAP senzor?

What does it mean custom tune?

 

Thank you again

 

 

Overboost means the turbo is exceeding what the ecu is requesting, perhaps the wastegate is sticking a bit.

 

You don't need to change the map sensor.

 

Custom tune would be a dyno tune for example, where they tune the car specially for upgrades you have done like turbo.

[RapidSK]

So,I took turbo out and let to control it to profesional company,repairing turbos.

Today I became result,that my 1.4turbo is destroyed and its no possible to repair it and set up the wastegate actuator,its no possible to do it by this types of turbos,generally EA211.

 

Now,I have to buy new one,and my question is,if it is good choice to buy RTMG 1.4Hybrid Turbo 220.If do you have some experiences with this

 

Many thanks and hope,that my experience can help to other one

[Daddy_Dewado]

On 20/06/2023 at 19:30, Andre_db87 said:

That is a nice intake! I thought they didn’t actually make this for the Fabia…as far as the bolts you used I guess that is right😂… How doe the APR coils feel ?

 

I finally got my car taken care off, I got the downpipe with a 200cell Cat the Forge intake and the bigger 1.4turbo..which resulted in just over 182hp and 277Nm. I am so happy with this, it just has become this fun sleeper car with just enough power to put a smile on your face. Although I wished there was a intercooler kit to keep it from heatsoaking in this hot conditions…but ah well can’t complain for that small engine. Ohw also I wished someone would have warned me that it would turn into Darth Vader with that intake😂 that will turn the heads of most people…

Wow what a result! I am considering this atm as my current stock turbo has a bit of play in the shaft and slightly worried about it blowing up haha. I am also running a forge Intake W/ a silicon turbo 90 deg pipe as well and yes very Darth Vader and a lovely lift of noise (probs what has killed my turbo as these don't have a bov) - When I just had the intake (no turbo 90 and no catback) Mine was mapped to 147hp and 260nm of tq (rolling road - Revo tune - Runs good) I am surprised it doesn't put out that much more tq with the bigger turbo. But I bet that power increase at the top end is noticeable! And with longer lag I am assuming?

 

Any issues with it running thus far?

 

Is that with stock injectors and fuel pump? I have read before of people putting in a better fuel pump and the 1.4 tsi Injectors with the big turbo to get it to 200hp ish. 

 

Also if you haven't already Definity get some better brakes! I run EBC Yellowstuff Pads W/ Brembo drilled rotors (front only) They are a bit meh when super cold but they can take 3 or so fast stops from 100+ Before really getting hot and honestly I think its my brake fluid that is the limiting power as the pedal goes really stiff but If I push hard enough it does stop (very aggressively) 
 

Thank you for any info and hope you enjoy your little pocket rocket! 

[Daddy_Dewado]

28 minutes ago, Daddy_Dewado said:

Wow what a result! I am considering this atm as my current stock turbo has a bit of play in the shaft and slightly worried about it blowing up haha. I am also running a forge Intake W/ a silicon turbo 90 deg pipe as well and yes very Darth Vader and a lovely lift of noise (probs what has killed my turbo as these don't have a bov) - When I just had the intake (no turbo 90 and no catback) Mine was mapped to 147hp and 260nm of tq (rolling road - Revo tune - Runs good) I am surprised it doesn't put out that much more tq with the bigger turbo. But I bet that power increase at the top end is noticeable! And with longer lag I am assuming?

 

Any issues with it running thus far?

 

Is that with stock injectors and fuel pump? I have read before of people putting in a better fuel pump and the 1.4 tsi Injectors with the big turbo to get it to 200hp ish. 

 

Also if you haven't already Definity get some better brakes! I run EBC Yellowstuff Pads W/ Brembo drilled rotors (front only) They are a bit meh when super cold but they can take 3 or so fast stops from 100+ Before really getting hot and honestly I think its my brake fluid that is the limiting power as the pedal goes really stiff but If I push hard enough it does stop (very aggressively) 
 

Thank you for any info and hope you enjoy your little pocket rocket! 

Should of done this prior but just gone and read through all the 2021 - current thread that I missed prior - Think I am just going to rebuild Mine as a stock turbo - JBS looks like a amazing option but it's now 2.4k (With map) and it will still want a sport cat. 200hp would be amazing and I am sure it pulls like a rocket but until I have even more money to throw at this car just going to leave it with the modest 147. More than enough to get me in trouble! Got 135 out of it so not too shabby!