Work straight out the box

[Kenny R]

9 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

But what you say just doesn't make sense, sorry to labour the point but I have read so many times that these self levelling systems adjust for hills & bumps & dips in the road that it has passed into folklore and seems accepted by all.

 

The ride height sensors, for that is what you describe will not measure any difference when a vehicle is travelling up or downhill, for all intents and purposes the ascent/descent is a flat but inclined road, when you are travelling up or downhill on the flat incline your headlights will illuminate as much in front as they would on the flat & level.

 

Why would you want or need the beam to raise when going downhill? This would dazzle any oncoming traffic be it on the incline or the level road ahead of it.

 

A system could do what you say by using data from an inclination sensor but I really dont see that there would be any advantage, only dazzling for oncoming vehicles in some circumstances.

 

I think we can all agree that the system will level the headlights when the vehicle is loaded, if there is any info elsewhere regarding hills, humps etc I would like to learn.

 

On my Yeti the headlamp height adjustment control is completely hidden behind the steering wheel and can only be seen by putting my head right down to the right, perhaps it would be visible if I had a functioning left eye but its not in the field of view of the instruments and controls like in the Octavias, also it does not have a panel light dimmer.

Don’t know exactly what manufacturers systems that VAG use, but this from Hella makes for interesting reading.

https://www.hella.com/techworld/uk/Technical/Automotive-lighting/Headlamp-levelling-system-838/#

[MarkyG82]

10 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

 

The ride height sensors, for that is what you describe will not measure any difference when a vehicle is travelling up or downhill, for all intents and purposes the ascent/descent is a flat but inclined road, when you are travelling up or downhill on the flat incline your headlights will illuminate as much in front as they would on the flat & level.

 

 

 

This is true with a slight caveat that when a vehicle is travelling uphill the weight transfer causes the rear to dip.  Similar to acceleration.  Not sure if the response of the system is enough to adjust in that situation though.  I would assume that the only way it actually adjusts is via the static loading of the suspension components.  Maybe even only on startup?

[langers2k]

At least when I was logging the levelling system on my FL MK2 Octavia, it would dynamically react to acceleration/deceleration to keep the headlight range in check. That should also cover the weight transfer going up/down hill as it can adjust to keep the headlights a set angle from the road surface jut using the two level sensors.

 

Take a look at graph I made ages ago, you can see larger changes in speed cause the headlight range/aim to change. As expected, they point up during braking and down during acceleration

 

The AFS master coding seems to take into account being installed with MK70 'ABS' systems and MK60 'ABS + ESP' systems. The former has no pitch/roll/yaw data whereas the later does. That suggests it's at least receiving the data but I don't know what it does with it.

 

As for bumps, I doubt the headlight motors can react quick enough to do anything meaningful to avoid brief moments of glare but the system might aim slightly low to reduce glare when the suspension is working hard. If I remember correctly, the sensors run at 200Hz which gives an idea of the maximum plausible adjustment rate. Obviously I have no data to back this theory up

 

The latest AFS versions can include 'predictive lighting' where satnav data is used to predict where the headlights will need to point due to up coming corners etc. It's plausible they can react to upcoming crests and dips. I've also seen examples where the lane assist camera can pick out the taillights of a car in from and adjust the headlight height from those too. These features can all be implemented with xenon/bi-xenon or led/bi-led headlights.

 

Matrix lights are fun as they can turn individual LEDs on/off to give permanent high beams without glare. However, the SSL technology is even better and give incredibly fine control of light distribution including the ability to show warning signs etc on the road ahead.

 

[Breezy_Pete]

^ Great stuff 

[J.R.]

An excellent posting, thanks for that Langers!

[J.R.]

Regarding the weight transfer on inclines, aside from the test hills at MIRA, Brooklands etc road gradients rarely exceed 6% and the majority are far less than that, also as the vehicle is inclined from the level position (C of G vector in line with suspension axis) the loading on the vehicle suspension reduces, part of the load being transmitted ditectly through the mountings to the wheels, at 45% the suspension springs are supporting half of the load that they would on level ground.

 

If a vehicle were set up on a testing platform with an MOT type headlamp beam tester set up in front, if the platform were inclined to say a 10% inclination I doubt that the beam height would move visibly or measurably.

 

Good to see definitive proof that the system reacts fast enough to react to squat and dive when accelerating and decelerating, the limiting factor of the motorised headlamp adjutment is the mechanical reaction time, the use of multi-LEDs would remove that, nonetheless there would have to be some lag in the system as when a vehicle hits a speedhump not only does it physically incline as the front wheels pass over which the suspension height sensors would not detect but it would compress the front suspension which the sensors would detect and that would tell the system to raise the beam height, the opposite of what is needed.

 

Aside from people with LED bulbs or HID conversions badly aligned and/or without the levelling systems the only times that I am blinded by oncoming LED/HED headlights is momentary flashes on a bumpy road, something that always happened before with halogen lights, its just much more dazzling now especially for eyes with the onset of cataracts which cause no other vision deficiency. And in fact its worse after the operation because the lens implant does not have the UV filtering that the natural crystalin lens has, a black light UV note detector looks as bright as a normal neon tube.

[ScoutCJB]

16 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

I think we can all agree that the system will level the headlights when the vehicle is loaded, if there is any info elsewhere regarding hills, humps etc I would like to learn.

 

 

Rather than me saying it, i have taken this from Hellas website -

 

'Today, almost all the vehicles fitted with xenon headlights are equipped with dynamic headlamp levelling systems which also react to driving-related changes in inclination, such as acceleration and braking'

Additionally, but not from Hellas site

 

Most adaptive headlight setups also include a self-levelling system. This system helps prevent headlights from pointing too far up or too far down when driving up or down hills. A self-levelling system includes a level sensor that sends information to the ECU about the vehicle’s position, specifically whether it is tilted forward or backwards. The headlights are then moved up or down to correct for the vehicle’s positionin

 

@Langers2k interesting data mate , i did love the adaptive lights on my Oct2 esp cornering when the beams turned

 

I followed a BM down the motorway last year in the early hours that had a Matrix style system and even following you could see that LEDS were being turned on and off (the beam pattern was changing on the embankment / central reservation) as it was passing other cars so as not to blind them.

Edited 3 September, 2020 by ScoutCJB

[GlitchGolder]

I have to say this whole discussion is one of the most interesting reads. The facts and information you guys are pulling into this is so juicy 🤩. 

[J.R.]

ScoutJCB.

 

We can all agree on the Hella statement, the second unattributed one again makes no sense, if the second sentence was removed it would be correct and mirror the Hella statement, I think the author was projecting his thoughts rather than facts.

 

The notification I recieved of your post contained the following which has since been deleted:

 

As i crest a hill or hit the valley floor i see the adjustments in the lights - I assume this to be the same on the OCt3 as I thought they were adaptive, they certainly were on my Oct 2 and does on the wifes MINI as well.

 

That happens on my fixed lights 😀

[Breezy_Pete]

2 hours ago, ScoutCJB said:

A self-levelling system includes a level sensor that sends information to the ECU about the vehicle’s position, specifically whether it is tilted forward or backwards.

Surely this sensor is detecting tilt of the car relative to the local surface that the car finds itself on, not tilt relative to true horizontal?

 

@J.R. is that the sentence you meant? It's the third?

Edited 3 September, 2020 by Wino

[J.R.]

Absolutely, a hill be it uphill or downhill is just another flat road as far as the levelling systems are concerned, there is zero requirement to adjust the headlamp aim.

 

Delete the erroneous sentence below and it reads correctly

 

This system helps prevent headlights from pointing too far up or too far down when driving up or down hills

[langers2k]

Tilt relative to the road surface will be done by the suspension level sensors.

 

Something similar to the longitudinal acceleration sensor found in ABS modules for hill hold control could be used for incline detection (absolute). I'm not aware of one being fitted in the AFS master so I don't think it's used. At least on the PQ35 generation of car...

 

When I get a MK3 I'll take a look through the measuring blocks for the AFS controller as it'll have led headlights with leveling. Should give an idea of what data is available and therefore what's plausible 😉

[ScoutCJB]

13 hours ago, J.R. said:

s.

 

The notification I recieved of your post contained the following which has since been deleted:

 

As i crest a hill or hit the valley floor i see the adjustments in the lights - I assume this to be the same on the OCt3 as I thought they were adaptive, they certainly were on my Oct 2 and does on the wifes MINI as well.

 

That happens on my fixed lights 😀

 

Yes deleted as this was on My Oct 2 that had adaptive Xenons, unsure if the Oct 3 are adaptive or not.

[langers2k]

As far as I know...

- The MK3 pre-FL gets bi-xenons with a similar AFS2 system to the FL MK2, although I think it has the AFS2 modes enabled by default (city, highway, rain modes)

- The MK3 FL gets LED headlights but drops back to AFS1 as there is no sideways/cornering movement of the LED projector. Instead, I think it has static cornering lights to help make up the difference, not sure they are as good

[Breezy_Pete]

14 hours ago, J.R. said:

Absolutely, a hill be it uphill or downhill is just another flat road as far as the levelling systems are concerned, there is zero requirement to adjust the headlamp aim.

 

Delete the erroneous sentence below and it reads correctly

 

This system helps prevent headlights from pointing too far up or too far down when driving up or down hills

I'm with you now. Sorry it took me so long. 😆

[Kenai]

1 hour ago, langers2k said:

As far as I know...

- The MK3 FL gets LED headlights but drops back to AFS1 as there is no sideways/cornering movement of the LED projector. Instead, I think it has static cornering lights to help make up the difference, not sure they are as good

 

The cornering lights aren't worth much but that's more so because the LED beam pattern is so wide and so consistent to start with, there is really little need to widen it or turn it - i wouldn't be surprised if the cornering LEDs are there purely to tick a box on a spec sheet, so potential buyers don't need to 'see it to believe it' in regards the LED beam patterns.

[skippy41]

I had to put my mind at rest, LED bulbs are ok as long as they are aligned ok, and have a similar beam pattern, I ask my 3 local MOT testers   , only HID swill fail the MOT

[langers2k]

@skippy41 - despite what the three MOT testers are telling you, LED kits in headlights designed for halogen bulbs are a fail.

 

It's in the current MOT inspection manual: 4.1.4 (c) 'Light source and lamp not compatible'

 

It's was also confirmed by a DVSA worker back in 2018 shortly after the new regulations came out:

 

If you really want to put your mind at rest, put halogen bulbs back in and stop messing around with LED conversion kits...