Work straight out the box

[skippy41]

https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/twenty20-compact-led-headlight-bulbs-H7-pair.html

Bought these straight swap, and work like a normal H7 ,even the kick lines are the same but good light with no dazzle, with bog standard reflector headlights

[Breezy_Pete]

Still an MOT fail though, no?

Edited 1 September, 2020 by Wino

[MarkyG82]

30 minutes ago, Wino said:

Still an MOT fail though, no?

 

Yes.

[langers2k]

I'd also be surprised if there was genuinely no glare in reflector style headlights...

 

The last review of those LEDs I saw suggested they had a wider, lower brightness hotspot. That means they'll suffer from the normal LED conversion issue - more foreground light but less distance lighting where you actually need it. This tends to give the driver more confidence at the same time as reducing the amount they can see 😕

[MarkyG82]

I find the easiest way to improve vision with halogen lights is to turn on fog lights.  Not strictly legal with no fog but at least you don't have any issues come MOT time.

[Ecomatt]

51 minutes ago, MarkyG82 said:

I find the easiest way to improve vision with halogen lights is to turn on fog lights.  Not strictly legal with no fog but at least you don't have any issues come MOT time.

Fog lights only light up a few meters in the road and not in the distance. Okay for maneuvering but at anything above 10mph are useless. 

People fit new bulbs but dont get them setup properly. Some are still set too low and consequently arent any better. Others are pointing up too high which again is pointless but causes dazzle to oncoming traffic.

Most mot garages have the equipment to align the bulbs correctly.

[skippy41]

3 hours ago, MarkyG82 said:

 

Yes.

no

as long as they are aligned correctly and give the right kick off they pass

 

[Breezy_Pete]

Actually, I think I'm wrong. Section 4.1.4 of the test manual from Oct 2019 only specifically mentions HIDs as being an instant fail in halogen housings.

"Existing halogen headlamp units should not be converted to be used with HID bulbs. If such a conversion has been done, you must fail the headlamp."

 

I think there was a previous revision where that mentioned LEDs too, or something like "any other type of light source than original" or words to that effect.  Fail criterion 4.1.4.c might still be an issue, but not sure how that would be judged?

 

 

 

 

Edited 2 September, 2020 by Wino

[langers2k]

6 minutes ago, skippy41 said:

no

as long as they are aligned correctly and give the right kick off they pass

 

I'm afraid you're incorrect.

 

Your tester should check that the light source is compatible with the headlamp. In your case, your headlamp is marked as only being compatible with a halogen H7 bulb. Therefore, an LED bulb fitted should be rejected for 4.1.4 (c) 'Light source and lamp not compatible'.

 

Taken from here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/mot-inspection-manual-for-private-passenger-and-light-commercial-vehicles/4-lamps-reflectors-and-electrical-equipment#section-4-1-4

[Breezy_Pete]

How would a tester know what housing type is or isn't compatible with an LED light source though?

Edit, now that I've read your second sentence, I see, I think.

Edited 1 September, 2020 by Wino

[MarkyG82]

It does seem that LED bulbs that are correctly marked to cover the right standards would be ok.  From memory one of the main issues with HID conversions is the lack of washers as they were used to reduce the heat.  LEDs produce heat in a much different way so the washers are not the limiting factor.  

This does seem to be an area that is changing regularly and maybe needs a line in the MOT specs to cover certified LED conversions.

I would agree that from a technical viewpoint if the LED has the light source in the correct position and the cooling is sufficient then there should be an issue.

[Breezy_Pete]

I just had a close look at the housings on my Polo's headlights ( one original AFAIK, one aftermarket) and can't see anything specifying what bulb type they are for, or any other regulatory info TBH?

[Breezy_Pete]

Look what they hid away behind the "Techy Stuff" tab:

 

[langers2k]

33 minutes ago, Wino said:

How would a tester know what housing type is or isn't compatible with an LED light source though?

 

There will be a bunch of codes on the headlamp somewhere, it's can be:

- on a sticker

- moulded into the body

- moulded on the lens

- a combination of these

 

Most codes are listed here: https://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/lights/codes/codes.html

 

Example sticker from a pre-FL MK3 halogen headlight, the HC and HR codes state it has halogen low and high beams:

 

At least in the OP's case, the tester should easily be able to see the aftermarket LED sticking out in the middle of the reflector. Given no manufacturer has anything like that as stock, it'll be super obvious it's not right.

 

25 minutes ago, MarkyG82 said:

It does seem that LED bulbs that are correctly marked to cover the right standards would be ok.

 

It's impossible to make an LED meet the requirements for a H7 bulb as the requirements basically need it to be halogen. It would be no brighter (just whiter) as the bulb specification defines the maximum output

 

It's very hard to actually make an LED match a filament bulb as they have completely different characteristics. Even more so when trying to get the LED to fit in the same size/location as a filament with 360 degree light output. You can see below the halogen filament is pretty consistent where as the xenon and LEDs both have much brighter 'hotspots' which would need controlling by the headlights optic design:

 

25 minutes ago, MarkyG82 said:

From memory one of the main issues with HID conversions is the lack of washers as they were used to reduce the heat.  LEDs produce heat in a much different way so the washers are not the limiting factor.

 

The washers have nothing to do with heat or keeping the xenons cool as xenon systems should run cooler than halogen systems as they are more efficient

 

 The washers are there to keep the lenses clean (ish) as dirt on the lens causes the light to diffuse and can cause glare to other road uses. All headlight systems with an output over 2000lm require washers

 

I think all LED system require self levelling too if I remember correctly...

 

 

Edited 1 September, 2020 by langers2k
typo

[MarkyG82]

I knew someone would come along with sense.

So as it stands there are still no LED replacements for H* bulbs that are road legal in the uk regardless of any LED specific info being omitted from the MOT specs.

[langers2k]

7 minutes ago, MarkyG82 said:

So as it stands there are still no LED replacements for H* bulbs that are road legal in the uk regardless of any LED specific info being omitted from the MOT specs.

 

Correct. There are currently no 'drop in' conversions that meet the ECE requirements and therefore none are currently road legal (regardless of the MOT)

 

If you do want LED or xenon lighting, the simplest way to stay road legal is to retrofit new stock LED/xenon headlights to the standard of a factory install (washers/levelling etc) as this means you would be covered by the same ECE approval.

[ChoonDoode]

Rather than piddle about with LED bulbs, I would invest in quality halogen bulbs like Osram Night Breakers. I've the Night Breaker lasers in my bike and the difference is astonishing. 

 

They are pricey as £20 a pair, but they're worth it.

[Gerrycan]

All my cars have been fitted with traditional incandescent (mainly halogen) headlights with standard bulbs and there have only been two vehicles where I found the optical projection performance to be inadequate for safe country driving. By 'country' I mean absolutely no road lighting and little other traffic.

Where I live in South Australia there is no annual 'MOT' equivalent so it is not uncommon to be painfully aware of poor LED 'upgrade' implementations on cars and particularly on older trucks. With our sometimes long, flat and straight roads you can have one of these near blinding offenders driving towards you for 10 minutes.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think that LED represent the greatest breakthrough in cheap efficient lighting since the introduction of electricity and from a cycling perspective when the best you get were Eveready Nightrider 6 volt glow worms, well LED's are near miraculous.

However you can have too much of a good thing implemented badly so it is really refreshing to see the standard of good advice on offer in this thread.

[ScoutCJB]

On 01/09/2020 at 07:58, skippy41 said:

https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/twenty20-compact-led-headlight-bulbs-H7-pair.html

Bought these straight swap, and work like a normal H7 ,even the kick lines are the same but good light with no dazzle, with bog standard reflector headlights

 

Im sorry this sounds a bit rude but i very much doubt theres no dazzle.  Last year driving home on winter evenings on country roads as i do on my 80 mile daily commute,  you could literally tell a mile off the cars that had non standard lights.

Additionally in the rain its bloody horrendous, the glare off a wet road with the smooth black silent tarmac (as opposed to the roads where they shove a bit of glue on and then throw the chippings on) is catastrophic when driving towards them .... Im going to say some are worse then others.

 

 

23 hours ago, langers2k said:

I'd also be surprised if there was genuinely no glare in reflector style headlights...

 

The last review of those LEDs I saw suggested they had a wider, lower brightness hotspot. That means they'll suffer from the normal LED conversion issue - more foreground light but less distance lighting where you actually need it. This tends to give the driver more confidence at the same time as reducing the amount they can see 😕

 

Agree - I read some bulb reviews and whilst they appear to be brighter some are actually dimmer.  Even testers suggested a good quality halogen upgrade was better. Some of those bulbs have built in fans which just suggest they are running far too hot.

 

 

19 hours ago, Wino said:

How would a tester know what housing type is or isn't compatible with an LED light source though?

Edit, now that I've read your second sentence, I see, I think.

 

If you look at an LED bulb from the ones i have seen you can tell straight off that its not a halogen bulb (unless hidden behind a parabolic lens).  Cars with factory LED tend to have the LED concealed or behind a lens to distribute the light correctly.

 

 

19 hours ago, MarkyG82 said:

 From memory one of the main issues with HID conversions is the lack of washers as they were used to reduce the heat.  LEDs produce heat in a much different way so the washers are not the limiting factor.  

 

 

Factory Xenons on cars within Europe require washers and levellers.  In an nutshell  they need washers to remove any dirt on the lens as the light being produced gets easily distorted and can cause glare.  Im surprised this isnt a requirement of LED lights as well - the X trail i had a few years ago had LEDS and i had to clean the lights daily over winter as the light output was significantly reduced when even slightly dirty.

 

Levellers are required to keep the lights levelled when going up / down hill and carrying heavy loads etc to stop blinding other drivers.

 

Heat shouldnt be an issue for the bulb itself as its running 35W HID as opposed to 55W halogen.  I always found that in my old Scout that had factory Xenons that in the snow the snow built up quicker and stuck more to the lamps so i ended up washing the lights more to clear the snow. 

Edited 2 September, 2020 by ScoutCJB

[Breezy_Pete]

I think I might complain to the ASA about that website not being a whole lot more up front about the whole 

"E-marked/ road legal - No" aspect of these bulbs.

[J.R.]

@ScoutCJB

 

Do the levelling systems do anything when a vehicle is travelling up or down a hill?

 

I cant get my head around what you would expect them to do.

 

Levelling the beam when travelling down a hill sounds like a disaster for oncoming traffic and levelling when going uphill a disaster for the driver.

 

So what circumstances is the system supposed to react to or is it simply for when the vehicle is laden where the considerate amongst us would use the manual levelling control?

Edited 2 September, 2020 by J.R.

[Kenai]

Self levelling systems are there for load compensation, in place of the old manual systems. Generally required on high output lights because where a halogen was irritating if Mr Caravan forgot to wind the dial down, Xenon/LED can be so bright as to be dangerous for oncoming vehicles.

[ScoutCJB]

It does it automatically based on data / readings from 2 sensors, one at the front normally on one of the arms and one on the and rear beam or similar.

As you travel up a hill it lowers the beam / aim to stop dazzling oncoming traffic and when you travel down a hill it lifts the beam so you can see where you are going.  It also comes into play with additional loads in the car or towing.

 

Some systems like the Skoda Octavia are quite subtle whereas others like my Wifes old Cooper S it was really noticeable.

 

So whys it there - my guess, Xenons / LED that are malaligned etc can dazzle and are very distracting.  A lot of people wont use the manual adjuster so with it taken out the mix and an automated system in place there is nothing to worry about.

 

Edited 2 September, 2020 by ScoutCJB

[PetrolDave]

3 hours ago, J.R. said:

the considerate amongst us would use the manual levelling control?

 

2 hours ago, ScoutCJB said:

 A lot of people wont use the manual adjuster so with it taken out the mix and an automated system in place there is nothing to worry about.

That's the point, most people won't use the manual level control (I would bet that most don't even know what that control does...) so with bright Xenon lights the requirement for auto-levelling is an acknowledgement that having the levelling done automatically is necessary because most drivers won't do it.

[J.R.]

9 hours ago, ScoutCJB said:

It does it automatically based on data / readings from 2 sensors, one at the front normally on one of the arms and one on the and rear beam or similar.

As you travel up a hill it lowers the beam / aim to stop dazzling oncoming traffic and when you travel down a hill it lifts the beam so you can see where you are going.  It also comes into play with additional loads in the car or towing.

 

 

But what you say just doesn't make sense, sorry to labour the point but I have read so many times that these self levelling systems adjust for hills & bumps & dips in the road that it has passed into folklore and seems accepted by all.

 

The ride height sensors, for that is what you describe will not measure any difference when a vehicle is travelling up or downhill, for all intents and purposes the ascent/descent is a flat but inclined road, when you are travelling up or downhill on the flat incline your headlights will illuminate as much in front as they would on the flat & level.

 

Why would you want or need the beam to raise when going downhill? This would dazzle any oncoming traffic be it on the incline or the level road ahead of it.

 

A system could do what you say by using data from an inclination sensor but I really dont see that there would be any advantage, only dazzling for oncoming vehicles in some circumstances.

 

I think we can all agree that the system will level the headlights when the vehicle is loaded, if there is any info elsewhere regarding hills, humps etc I would like to learn.

 

On my Yeti the headlamp height adjustment control is completely hidden behind the steering wheel and can only be seen by putting my head right down to the right, perhaps it would be visible if I had a functioning left eye but its not in the field of view of the instruments and controls like in the Octavias, also it does not have a panel light dimmer.