Octavia Scout 68-reg 181PS engine idle speed too fast?

[rcgliderpilot]

I've got a 68-reg Octavia Scout bought nearly-new, and I absolutely love it. However, ever since I've had it, its engine idle speed has seemed too high. It idles at 750rpm, which seems too fast to me... When you put the DSG box in gear, the car moves forward quite smartly, and with sharp brakes, it's hard to manouevre smoothly if you're eg manoeuvring in a tight space. When coming to a halt, it's also very difficult to feather the brakes for a smooth stop as you come to a halt. I'm extremely used to DSG boxes (have done c. 100k miles in DSG-equipped cars), and currently also own an Audi A3 3.2 with DSG box, and that behaves exactly as I would expect it to.

 

I've queried the idle speed with two different Skoda dealers, and both have assured me nothing is amiss: one of them took my query vaguely seriously but said nothing was wrong and told me it couldn't be adjusted, while the other treated me with near-disdain even when I pointed out I had owned around 25 cars, driven around 900k miles and owned four DSG-equipped cars in my driving lifetime - so I have a reasonable idea about cars...

 

Is 750rpm a "normal" idle speed for the 181PS Scout, and if not, what should it be? Any input much appreciated.

[rcgliderpilot]

Just realised my profile says I have a 2012 CT Scout... My son now has that!! Whoops...

[EnterName]

It sounds normal to me.

What sort of idle RPM were you expecting?

[rcgliderpilot]

550/600?? Don't think I've ever owned a car that idles at 750rpm - petrol or diesel - but perhaps I'm mistaken??

[EnterName]

22 minutes ago, rcgliderpilot said:

550/600?? Don't think I've ever owned a car that idles at 750rpm - petrol or diesel - but perhaps I'm mistaken??

I don't think the idle speed is a problem, it really does sound normal to me. I'd be a bit concerned at a car idling at under 600RPM, TBH.

That said, I don't know about the lurching forward. I've only test-driven a DSG vRS TDI, and it was pretty civilised setting off, no lurching at all.

 

[rcgliderpilot]

Thanks for your interest. I wouldn't say it "lurches"... It's just that with every other DSG-equipped car I've had/driven, they move off gently with the "creep" (as I think it used to be called in the old days with torque-converter autos) - i.e. with no application of the throttle - nicely controlled. On my Scout, the "off-throttle creep" is significantly more aggressive, which makes it very hard to move off/stop smoothly - I do pride myself on being as smooth a driver as possible... I don't think I'm being too finicky: it's enough of a problem to detract from my ownership of the car.

[EnterName]

2 hours ago, rcgliderpilot said:

Thanks for your interest. I wouldn't say it "lurches"... It's just that with every other DSG-equipped car I've had/driven, they move off gently with the "creep" (as I think it used to be called in the old days with torque-converter autos) - i.e. with no application of the throttle - nicely controlled. On my Scout, the "off-throttle creep" is significantly more aggressive, which makes it very hard to move off/stop smoothly - I do pride myself on being as smooth a driver as possible... I don't think I'm being too finicky: it's enough of a problem to detract from my ownership of the car.

I understand where you're coming from, I do the same with my 2.0TSI, and the DSG pulls away very slowly and gently without throttle.

Worth driving another example if you can, to compare. I haven't driven a Scout, so have no experience of them.

If I knew anything about the 4x4 system, I might be able to comment intelligently on whether a fault with the Haldex might cause this jerking, but I don't so I won't.

 

Edit: Thinking about it, when I first drove my DSG, I had the opposite problem, I found it very difficult to stop perfectly smoothly, as I can no longer feather off the brake just as I come to a halt to avoid jerking, because the DSG re-engages the clutch.

I just got used to it, but it still irks me a little that I can't stop perfectly smoothly. Maybe I need to master the technique.

Edited 7 August, 2021 by EnterName

[Ecomatt]

The idle is perfect at 750rpm. Most other card I have owned have been pretty much the same.

It might be worth purchasing obdeleven and you can do a DSG adaption, which should smooth out the changes. The DQ250 can be a bit clunky on the diesel as mine is the VRS 184ps like yours. It is best to let of the brake pedal and allow the car to move forward then apply the accelerator.

[Vahids]

Idle for both my previous and current VAG cars is between 750-800 rpm. Never had a car with idle less than that tbh

[varaderoguy]

@rcgliderpilot

Okay - I own a MY19 Scout - same setup with a 184bhp diesel engine. 

 

Idle speed goes up and down depending on the journey, whether the car is in regen or not and also depending on accessories switched on.  Can you firstly send us a video showing the 'high' idle speed?  If its at 1000rpm, then it will be in regen mode.  Our generation of Scouts are setup quite differently from earlier Scouts and TDI engines; they are setup for clean emissions, so depending on what the car is doing or where it is going or how much heat is in the engine.

 

Is your Scout doing multiple regens (auto-stop/start not working with high rpm at idle)?  If so, what is your typical journey like?  You should really not be doing anything less than 10 miles.  I also recommend that (if you aren't already) - utilising some decent fuel from a branded petrol station.  I personally like to add in a cetane improver (https://www.hydra-int.com/diesel-power-blast.html which makes a huge different to the performance of the car and keeps the EGR and DPF clean.  I also recommend utilising decent Ad-Blue in your car as this does make a small difference.

 

In terms of the gearbox - ooh - you should be running at DQ381 7 speed box (they introduced them in MY18 build year).  I had a fault on day one on my car with the DSG gearbox, but it was easily fixed.  Basically, at the factory, they didn't fill up the gearbox sump properly.  It was short by approximately a litre of gearbox oil.  A complete DSG gearbox oil and filter change transformed the car and made driving it so much nicer.  It might be expensive for an oil change, but it is worth it.

 

You didn't say what mileage the car had done.  I personally also recommend getting the HALDEX gear oil changed and gauze filter cleaned [because it will be black and the filter will be blocked up] every 20k miles. 

 

I've done numerous mods to my Scout, so happy to help out a fellow Scout owner.  Please PM me.

 

 

Edited 8 August, 2021 by varaderoguy

[ords]

I understand what you're saying, I have the same experience with the lurching

 

The idle speed is normal at around 750 with it in gear and brakes on.

 

As soon as I release the brakes, the idle goes up to 1000 and the car moves off smoothly and likewise coming to a stop, all very smooth. If you're having this problem in start/stop traffic then maybe there is a problem.

 

The "lurching" is caused by the brakes going on and off and revs going up and down as you try to drive slowly into a small space.. Annoying, but for me it's only when I'm putting it into my very narrow garage that it happens. 

 

Does your Audi have a different spec gearbox which you're comparing it with?

[MarkyG82]

On the subject of idle speed. 750 is about right for TDI. You can increase it a little by up to 100 or 150 (I forget) with vcds/obd11. Maybe worth looking to see if you can reduce it if you are really that concerned.

For what it's worth, I mirror above comments in that all the cars I have owned the idle has been around 750-850. 550-600 sounds very low to me.

[NZ100]

My Scout ticks over at 750 most of the time.

If its ticking over at a 1000, it's usually doing something. 

At slow speed my brakes are a bit keen.

[rcgliderpilot]

Thanks, all, for your responses - appreciate the feedback. This is the first DSG-equipped diesel I've had - other three over 100k miles have been/are petrol.

 

To answer the points raised:

 

General re idle speed: OK, perhaps I'm wrong - but the high idle speed seems to be the root of the problem... This problem never occurred on the other three DSG-equipped cars I've owned - including a 60-plate Fabia vRS estate. Is it to do with what VAG Group had to do to their diesel engines once the cheat software had been removed??

 

EnterName: Re your point, "I had the opposite problem, I found it very difficult to stop perfectly smoothly, as I can no longer feather off the brake just as I come to a halt to avoid jerking, because the DSG re-engages the clutch." - that's EXACTLY what I experience when stopping... In ownership of 25+ cars over 900k miles, not one of them has ever stopped me from coming to a halt really smoothly.

 

Ecomatt: "It is best to let of the brake pedal and allow the car to move forward then apply the accelerator." That's exactly what I do, and because it accelerates so smartly, it makes it hard to move away gently and smoothly, and, more to the point, manoeuvre smoothly in confined spaces.

 

Varaderoguy: nothing to do with regens... I run the car on Shell V-Power or BP Ultimate exclusively (always done that since I had DPF issues 15 years ago with a Citroen C5 HDi), and try not to use the car for short journeys. I also give it a blast in 3rd/4th on the dual carriageway every now and then, just to make sure. By the way, it's a 6-speed DSG, not 7-speed: is that unusual for a 68-plate Scout 184bhp??? Mileage currently 23k - was 21k prior to pandemic, so I haven't done many miles in 18 months, but the problem has existed since I took over the car at 1800 miles.

 

Thanks again, everyone. It's a long while since I've posted here, and I appreciate the input

 

 

 

[varaderoguy]

12 hours ago, rcgliderpilot said:

Is it to do with what VAG Group had to do to their diesel engines once the cheat software had been removed??

Different car - different engine - completely different setup.  This car is a Euro 6 or 6a car and the way the engine is setup is completely different.  Nothing to do with cheat software.

 

12 hours ago, rcgliderpilot said:

By the way, it's a 6-speed DSG, not 7-speed: is that unusual for a 68-plate Scout 184bhp???

Yes - it is.  I'm surprised they were still punting out those gearboxes for a 68 plate unless your build date was earlier.  You have a DQ250A (all wheel drive) gearbox in that case.

 

 

 

 

[Ootohere]

@rcgliderpilot 

#'Memories!'

Did your 60 plate 1.4TSI 180ps Twincharger DQ200 7 Speed twin dry clutch Twin Charger not start  with 1,100 rpm and after 40 seconds dropped to 800 rpm. when in P, N or put into D but the RPM went to over 950 rpm if you selected S ?

 

(Very different from a Euro 6 on 2.0 TDI with or without SCR with a 6 speed  wet clutch DSG.)

The TDI will still do regens regardless of running it on Premium Diesel. If not noticeable to you then so much the better, if it is not doing regens expect future issues.

 

eg. Top pic.

A 2010 1.4 TSI Twincharger.

One of the first in the UK as a media car.

 

Next 2

2016 2.0 TDI 150ps SCR / DSG, SEAT Alhambrah.

 

4th pic. 

Mk3 Skoda Superb.

What might be expected as you get if you do a few days of just short runs with cold starts as the car gets older.

It might start with just a wee blast or run about of 8 mies to clear it and over time that ends up taking more or more miles needed to clear it.

Running Premium Diesel will not stop that happening.

 

Edited 9 August, 2021 by e-Roottoot

[MarkyG82]

Re the manoeuvring issues.  I tweaked the idle speed up to 850 (+100 in OBDeleven) and it made it much nicer to pull away and control at slow speed.  Also reduced the tractor impression the car gave at tick over.

[PetrolDave]

15 hours ago, rcgliderpilot said:

perhaps I'm wrong - but the high idle speed seems to be the root of the problem...

I would be very surprised if the idle speed on the other cars was much lower than 750rpm, if lower at all.

 

Every car I've owned has had an idle speed (when warm) in the 750-900rpm range.

 

I agree with earlier replies that the issue is more likely to be with either DSG oil level or DSG clutch calibration.

[fr1nklyn]

A bit of an off topic, bit usually the bigger engines have lower idle speed. I remember a friend’s BMW with V8 running at 400-500 rpm. That was 4.4 or 5.0, not sure.

Best man’s straight-six 3.0d running at 500-600. And most of the cars I had with 4 cylinders were having idle speed at around 750-850.

[Phil-E]

Diesels tend to have a slightly higher idle speed.

 

My 1.4 TSI 122bhp with A/C off etc idles at 650rpm. But can be higher with higher electrical load or cold temps etc.

 

But it reacts the same as the newer DSG cars as above. As I start to lift my foot off the brake the idle rases to 1000rpm and the car creeps forward.

[rcgliderpilot]

Update... I've just had the annual service performed on my vehicle (only done about 2k miles since last year for obvious reasons - now at 23k) and this included a DSG and Haldex oil change.

 

Intriguingly, since that service, the car is now noticeably less "eager" off the line when using no throttle and just letting the vehicle move forward of its own accord. It is now what I consider to be "within bounds of acceptability" - and certainly much closer to the characteristics of my DSG-equipped Audi A3 V6. I hadn't mentioned it to the Service Dept this time, as I'd already mentioned it to the Service Dept of two different Skoda garages - both of which treated me with disdain when I mentioned the issue at both the 10k and 20k services.

 

I'd love to know what it is that has effected this change on my Octavia Scout: it's now a much more enjoyable car to drive, particularly when manoeuvring or coming to a smooth halt, and subjectively also feels more lively than before on the open road - even my wife commented on that, as she took and collected the car to/from its service, and it's not the sort of thing she usually notices... Curiouser and curiouser...

[rcgliderpilot]

On 07/08/2021 at 18:30, EnterName said:

I understand where you're coming from, I do the same with my 2.0TSI, and the DSG pulls away very slowly and gently without throttle.

Worth driving another example if you can, to compare. I haven't driven a Scout, so have no experience of them.

If I knew anything about the 4x4 system, I might be able to comment intelligently on whether a fault with the Haldex might cause this jerking, but I don't so I won't.

 

Edit: Thinking about it, when I first drove my DSG, I had the opposite problem, I found it very difficult to stop perfectly smoothly, as I can no longer feather off the brake just as I come to a halt to avoid jerking, because the DSG re-engages the clutch.

I just got used to it, but it still irks me a little that I can't stop perfectly smoothly. Maybe I need to master the technique.

In response to your message, I have just added an update following the 3-year/23k service - thanks for your interest!

[paulski]

Curious indeed, i always "feel" car feels more lively after an oil change and filters etc. 

 

I dont know for a fact as I've not yet had experience before and after this service procedure,  but if the dsg had an oil change, they might have had to run through a diagnostic reset procedure that recalibrated the clutches pressure points. This is often reported on the forum to smooth out the gear changes and characteristics. 

 

Glad its better for you now, my 2.0 TDI dsg certainly idles at 750rpm and on take off, it just creeps away even off my drive that is slightly downhill.  

Edited 9 September, 2021 by paulski

[Ootohere]

@rcgliderpilot Any particular reason you had a DSG oil change at 23,000 miles.    As the post above it is not unusual to feel / behave differently after oil changes of wet clutch DSG,s.   It is recommended / a guideline at 40,000 miles and really should be called scheduled for that.  It is not a 4 yearly item regardless of what a Skoda site might show or Service Desk staff say.   BUT,  If a software update was carried out then a owner / driver collecting a vehicle should be told and it should be in writing when the collect the vehicle.   Services are not Skoda Secret Service Services where they should know and it is none of the driver's business.     PS best asking service desk staff about keyboards or telephones unless you are talking with a tech from the workshop who is trained as a mechanical engineer.  That is unlikely to include a workshop / service manager. 

Edited 9 September, 2021 by e-Roottoot