Well driving one of the current popular EV vehicles is generally pleasurable, the quietness, the instant acceleration but range anxiety is a factor with all of them I would have thought even Long Range Tesla Model 3s and P75s and even P100s etc as they do not do the 400, 500 or 600 miles we get on many of our ICE cars.

 

That said the two ideas that the fuel can cost next to nothing and one is making journeys with almost zero pollution is very satisfying to me.  I just tripped over the 1000 mile mark in a little trip to St Andrews football ground in Birmingham and then back to Worcester and the onboard computer is still showing a fairly good range considering late autumn cool temperature driving.....

 

zoe-dash 7-11-2021.jfif   

 

So getting a projected range of around 218 miles, down from 238 miles when it was warmer in early September and a lot less than the 260 I was seeing on A road runs in the warm weather spell in mid-late September.

 

Learning where the free and cheaper charge points are but total running costs are overall cheaper in the Zoe EV than in Octavia I had and that is with all the advantages of a fuel card.  Just need my employer to consider charging my fuel card to an EV charge card with Gridserve and/or even Tesla when that network become available to all EVs in the UK as appears to be the intent !  

 

Still got a ICE backup but only using that when the EV is not practical to use on those long fast journeys when charging would be difficult.

 

Edited 8 November, 20214 yr by lol-lol

6 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Still got a ICE backup but only using that when the EV is not practical to use on those long fast journeys when charging would be difficult.

This is what needs to be solved before owning ONLY an EV will be a viable option for many people especially those living 'out in the sticks' - it's all about range, range, range (apologies to Phil & Kirstie of Location, Location, Location).

People know about EV batteries and losses when colder and reduced range.  I was doing lots of miles last year and charging and charging free and in the coldest weather plugging my car in to pre heat and defrost.   This winter because local charging is not free other than at Tesco I am charging there.  So last week I had 46 kWh from them for only 70 miles of driving.  And I had 25 kWh free at CPS chargers on Saturday.     What I am now aware of is the battery dropping up to 9% in 24 hours with only 5 miles of driving in that time.      Driving a car that could do 40mpg of cold start short journeys 

 would be cheaper in fuel than paying the likes of InstaVolt to buy 46 kWh of electricity. Or even Tesco to rapid charge at 28 pence a kWh.  A Self charge hybrid would be ideal for me at the moment to satisfy my tightness when it comes to spending on energy.    Edit.  Today again that is nearly 40 minutes on a 7kW charger and 5kWh.  Just above freezing night temp and only 5 miles driven. 

Edited 8 November, 20214 yr by roottoot

After 4 years with EV, I don't think range anxiety is a thing once you get to know the capabilities of your car. But public charger anxiety is real: is there one working, is there one available, have I got the right app, etc.

So I agree, an ICE car is still needed for longer journeys just because EV efficiency drops at high speed and the poor public charging infrastructure. Everything else about EV ownership is brilliant.

 

I think range extended (via ICE or other means) EV make a LOT of sense. As transitional vehicles while the infrastructure catches up.  (NOT PHEV's, it has to require plug-in and has to be electric motor driven only to make sure the car is used as EV majority of the time)

Eg. a 50kWh EV would cover vast majority of most people's daily needs, giving 150-200 miles real world range. A small 15kW range extender would allow hours of driving at motorway speeds making charging mid-journey a thing of past just like driving 600+ miles diesel. (it allows 10 hours driving at average speed of 65mph => 650 miles)

 

Key thing is to change people's perception of needing hundreds of miles of range. You only need enough to cover daily requirement (also build millions of overnight chargers anywhere people park their cars overnight). It's pointless to switch to EV and carry around 100kWh of heavy batteries, due to the massive embedded carbon built into the batteries and the inefficiencies from the added weight. High speed efficiency is king, adding bigger and bigger batteries to SUV-bricks does not sufficiently reduce our climate impact.

50 kWh with 45 kWh usable & getting 3 miles per kWh is good when that is 135 miles, or better 3.5 miles per kWh so 157.5 miles or so.

 

If just 5 miles in a 24 hour day uses 5kWh then there is something pretty crap.

the 5 kW can take you 15 miles of driving without even needing to get much or even any regen. 

 

Must just be my car that is using up electricity like it is going out of fashion. 

 

I have no fancy features that should be draining the battery like the Teslas.

& Not particularly cold so far this month.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fantastic.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, roottoot said:

People know about EV batteries and losses when colder and reduced range.

That's a bold statement which I don't believe is correct of the majority of car drivers in the UK - yes current EV drivers either knew or have learnt it, but I strongly believe that the vast majority of the public have no understanding that battery capacity and hence EV range will be reduced when it's colder - and will not be pleased when they find out the hard way!

9 hours ago, lol-lol said:

driving one of the current popular ICE vehicles is generally pleasurable

Did you mean to write EV there, not ICE?

@PetrolDave

I really meant people that are interested in EV's or looking at getting them.

Obviously some of those might not even be aware though.

 

As to the majority of car drivers in the UK it might be the case that they just drive whatever, put fuel in or someone else does and that is that.

Car gets serviced or a mot or replaced before a mot is due and that is done some how by someone at sometime. 

 

EV's can be a total PITA as i am now very much aware & certainly not cheap to run if paying the commercial rate to charge them at Public Chargers.

Edited 8 November, 20214 yr by roottoot

2 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

This is what needs to be solved before owning ONLY an EV will be a viable option for many people especially those living 'out in the sticks' - it's all about range, range, range (apologies to Phil & Kirstie of Location, Location, Location).

 

I am not sure there is any real sticks in the UK ie nowhere where you are say a hundred miles from a bank of chargers and with the roll out of chargers at Lidl and Tesco they tend to be within 50 miles of just about everybody.

 

Problem is that drivers want at least 22 kwh chargers rather than the 7 kwh and even near useless 3 kwh chargers and off course preferably the 50 kwh DC and above chargers to make charge time in the matter of a few minutes rather than an hour or two as with 22 kwh and even longer than that for those chargers below 22 kwh AC.

 

What EV drivers note, and each EV is often quite different in the way they charge but generally one is only charging between 10% and say 80% ie a 70% circa two thirds charge rather than a nothing to full as the last 10 or even 20% can be quite slow.

 

But one should be leaving home with a full charge after charging overnight.  Easier for those two-thirds who can use a home charger of 7 kwh or even me with my bijou 3.6 kwh charger.  Those without drives are adopting so hairy solutions like handling the granny lead from upper bedroom windows and taped high up on a lamppost unless lucky enough to get the charge posts put in on the kerb as is happening in London and other cities.       

 

With E10 giving us less range in our petrol cars, a thousand new charge points a month appearing and the roll out of dedicated EV charging station like Braintree appearing the change over looks like being quite rapid, spurred on by £1.50 a litre fuel compared to 1p a mile electricity from home, free at work for many or 6p a mile at public chargers is impossible for any ICE to match. 

 

@lol-lol , recharging "free at work for many". Your employer happens to specialise in this field but is that really true for others?

Agree with the rest of your other points though.

Edited 8 November, 20214 yr by Gerrycan

40 minutes ago, Wino said:

Did you mean to write EV there, not ICE?

 

Indeed so, sorry, both the Zoe and Clio have proved very popular with buyers. 

 

Zoe is probably only just losing it crown as the most popular EV in Europe now the Telsa model 3 is in big production and sales and the ID 3/4 has finally started to ramp up the numbers.  Clio, mk4 has been massive success for Renault too and continues through the mark 5 and the Dacia of course.

 

It is just the Clio seems like it has nowhere more to develop other than hybrid but then nice to see the return of the Renault 5,as an EV,  

@lol-lol

If a kWh of electricity is 28 pence at a public charger and a kWh takes you 4 miles than then that is 7 pence a mile.

if 30 pence it is 7.5 pence.

42 pence a kWh then that is 10.5 pence a mile.

 

So if we add in cold weather or actually putting people in a car and you get 2.5 miles per kWh than you get to costing much the same as an ICE vehicle per mile for fuel.

18 kWh @ 42 pence = £7.56.     

18kWh getting 2.5 miles per kWh is just getting you 45 miles.         

 

There are incentives in the UK for Employers / Workplaces to have EV chargers and free charging and it is not uncommon.

Not uncommon now that their vehicles are being charged at the workplace either. 

There are many incentives in the UK for Business Users to have EV's be them cars or goods vehicles. 

Thousands of EV's in Scotland are leased by Local Authorities and sitting doing nothing for much of the lease period.

Edited 8 November, 20214 yr by roottoot

51 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

That's a bold statement which I don't believe is correct of the majority of car drivers in the UK - yes current EV drivers either knew or have learnt it, but I strongly believe that the vast majority of the public have no understanding that battery capacity and hence EV range will be reduced when it's colder - and will not be pleased when they find out the hard way!

 

The EV using a lithium ion battery is  very similar to any other lithium ion device we have ie our smartphones and rechargeable headphones and not actually as bad as common car batteries......

What annoys me a bit is, as with George, miles of range seem to disappear as each degree lower it gets, with the Zoe they come back again when it gets warmer so one takes it all with a pick of salt.  If one can heat the battery by a bit of driving then some if it can come back as the interior of the car gets warmer and the battery pack gets warmer.  Different battery tech ie the Lithium Metal Polyimide we used in our cars and now on Mercedes buses like the battery to be toastie bit like the diesel engine being left to idle to keep the jacket water temperature up.

 

The car manufacturers each do their own bit of nanny state if telling the car operator only half the truth. I would rather have amps and volts and a measure of Joules in the battery, the real figure ie the 55 kwh 200 MJ that it actual has and show the real data and perhaps saying that 10 or 20 MJ become temperature locked or something like that.

Instead the range meter comes up with it guess each time I switch it one or phone the car up on the Renault App.

I would rather the raw facts but that would not suit most I guess but I have been a student of thermodynamics for the last 45 years thru OND and degree level.

With half a million charge points by the end of this decade and few places more than a dozen miles from a bank of points plus advanced rental of that point, for a few pence, nearly everybody should be happy.    

 

 

 

17 minutes ago, Gerrycan said:

@lol-lol , recharging "free at work for many". Your company happens to specialise in this field but is that really true for others?

Agree with the rest of your other points though.

 

I think so.

My company has been quite poor at encouraging adoption of EVs which odd considering our involvement in batteries etc and even just good business practice for its employees.

 

We got our new Heathrow HQ in 2017, fresh build and somewhere somebody thought 10 chargers was the right number for an office that probably house about 200 workers.

 

Oddly I think 6 chargers are 3 kw, OK for a PHEV but not a BEV and 4 are 3 phase 11 kw AC which the Zoe will love, used the wrong one last time but as I still had 140 miles charge left did not bother to swap it over plus it did not release my lead so I ended up pulling the ROLEC post in half to get my lead by, fortunately Leckies on site made it safe and all the charge post will now have their cable locking pin greased up so it does not happen to a client or staff member.     

 

But I do go to lots of clients and the big ones often have charge points for use by staff and visitors.  Worse case many offices have an external waterproofed 240v 3 pin plug socket so I can use my granny cable and pick up a few kwh of power.

 

I read the figure as being 40% do not have off-street parking in the UK.  No idea of the truth of any statistics from H M Government , RAC, AA or Insurance companies.   No idea if that is accurate even for England let alone the UK.    It is like the average distant from a filling station or a charger.  Kidology.    Not relevant for many in much of the UK not in built up areas. 

Disclaimer: I do not own or can afford an electric car, so this is merely simple observations from an ICE-only owner. You may disagree if you do so wish, I just wish to provide my insight on current electrification measures. Nonsensical ramblings I have produced should be taken "with a pinch of salt" because sometimes even I forget what I'm rambling about. 

 

48 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

I am not sure there is any real sticks in the UK ie nowhere where you are say a hundred miles from a bank of chargers and with the roll out of chargers at Lidl and Tesco they tend to be within 50 miles of just about everybody.

 

I live in the sticks as such, Ayr, SW Scotland is a rough approximation of my location, I don't wish to give out more. There are five Electric Vehicle charging points about 5 miles in the nearest village/small town, which are often out of order, or being absorbed by council vans constantly so do not provide a consistent service that one could rely on. I shop at an Aldi supermarket "in town", which is 12.5 miles exactly according to my Fabia's computer, it has no charging ports, neither does the Lidl across the road (and then some). My only way of charging an electric vehicle at this point in time, without inconvenience upon myself, is to park it where I park every Wednesday to go to University, or to get a home charger, as my car requirements dictate that it needs to always be ready for me to "get in and go" where the situation requires.

 

So certainly, I do not live hundreds of miles away from human civilisation as you said, but I felt that it was critical to mention that being in a rural farming/ex-mining community can provide a little hinderance for myself when the infrastructure is so limited at the moment. Until I have the means and finances to procure an electric car, then I will drive what I can afford in the most environmentally conscious way possible.

 

That is all.

Edited 8 November, 20214 yr by AnnoyingPentium
Correcting idiocy. Somewhat.

As the public chargers in Ayrshire North, South East and West are going to be costing to use the amount of chargers are going to increase.  Kilmarnock has good facilities.   The price that is going to be charged means an economic ICE vehicle will be cheaper to run.  Especially in winter.   

2 minutes ago, roottoot said:

The price that is going to be charged means an economic ICE vehicle will be cheaper to run.  Especially in winter.

 

How economical are we talking, approximately? Do you have any sort of rough figure? I'd like to see how it stacks against my current shed.

26 minutes ago, roottoot said:

@lol-lol

If a kWh of electricity is 28 pence at a public charger and a kWh takes you 4 miles than then that is 7 pence a mile.

if 30 pence it is 7.5 pence.

42 pence a kWh then that is 10.5 pence a mile.

 

So if we add in cold weather or actually putting people in a car and you get 2.5 miles per kWh than you get to costing much the same as an ICE vehicle per mile for fuel.

18 kWh @ 42 pence = £7.56.     

18kWh getting 2.5 miles per kWh is just getting you 45 miles.         

 

There are incentives in the UK for Employers / Workplaces to have EV chargers and free charging and it is not uncommon.

Not uncommon now that their vehicles are being charged at the workplace either. 

There are many incentives in the UK for Business Users to have EV's be them cars or goods vehicles. 

Thousands of EV's in Scotland are leased by Local Authorities and sitting doing nothing for much of the lease period.

 

Well I am in the range 3.5 miles per kw to 5 miles per kw at the moment. Not been anywhere I have to pay but I am looking forward to maybe using the Rugby charging where they have a dozen 350 kw chargers, yes I can only charge at 50 so it seems like overkill and I was hoping they would do a half bank of 22 kw AC chargers maybe at 25 p a kwh as surely these are cheaper as no AC to DC is required with the 10% or so loss in power.

 

If I was doing less that 3 miles per kwh I would consider using a ICE instead but we have only been down to 2 C so far so nowhere near that the range is getting below 150 miles.  

 

 

 

https://www.gridserve.com/2021/04/30/electric-highway-opens-uks-largest-high-power-motorway-charging-site/

 

16 minutes ago, AnnoyingPentium said:

My only way of charging an electric vehicle at this point in time, without inconvenience upon myself, is to park it where I park every Wednesday to go to University, or to get a home charger, as my car requirements dictate that it needs to always be ready for me to "get in and go" where the situation requires.

The beauty with EV is that you are not tied to public infrastructure. If you can get a home charger, you can drive an EV and never really think about local public charging infrastructure.

 

eg. I know there are chargers near my home from maps, but I've never really visited any of them because I do all my charging at home. As long as the car can roll up the driveway with its own power at end of the day, local public chargers doesn't matter to me.

 

25 minutes ago, roottoot said:

40% do not have off-street parking in the UK.

Does that include car parks "remote from the property" like I had in the Western Isles in the 40%? There was no, repeat no way to charge an EV at that location without running a charging cable across a public road, footway or both. My neighbour who had a Nissan Leaf had to resort to parking on the footway (illegal in itself), and running a cable across the footway and through her living room window.

 

And, for the benefit of the English, Chargemap shows exactly 2 chargers within walking distance, both at the local hospital.

@lol-lolNot winter yet.

When it gets to 2.1 miles per kWh and you have only 45 kWh usable then you do not want to be on roads with snow or floods and possible diversions and chargers out of order.

You dont want to get someplace with chargers in Scotland and not get a charge and not be able to get directly home like @AnnoyingPentiummight need to.

https://dailyrecord.co.uk/ayrshire/another-ayrshire-council-start-charging-24255374

 

The less than 5.5 million people in Scotland might well want to know just where the £45 million pound already spent with CPS on Public Charging has all gone!

 

https://fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-fleet-news/electric-fleet-news/2021/10/13/electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-races-ahead-in-scotland

Lots spent on Spin Doctors & PR.

Edited 8 November, 20214 yr by roottoot

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

Indeed so, sorry,

Why not edit your first post so it makes more sense then?

3 minutes ago, Wino said:

Why not edit your first post so it makes more sense then?

 

Done.  Trying to multi-task and not being very successful.

 

The Zoe has gone from a 22 kwh car to a 52 Kwh car in less than a decade and more power, better lights ie LED.  Proud to own a heat pump even if it is in the car as the heat pump is being demonized at present quite wrongly in my opinion.

 

 

4 minutes ago, roottoot said:

You don't want to get someplace with chargers in Scotland and not get a charge and not be able to get directly home like @AnnoyingPentiummight need to.

 

At least with the ICE Fabia, I'm able to venture to most places on Scotland on one tank of petrol. I usually factor in a stop on the return leg to make sure I have petrol to return home. The issue is the lack of consistency with chargers for EVs in Scotland, as you have said, George. It could be an inconvenience (or even a danger, depending on if you break down) to arrive at a place where chargers are either unavailable or are out of use.