@AnnoyingPentium  A favour please.

 

Try a 2016 VW Up! 1.0 automatic   and a 2016 VW e-Up!  for the difference in insurance.

 

http://heycar.co.uk/guides/cheapest-electric-cars-to-insure

 

http://carwow.co.uk/blog/cheapest-electric-cars-to-insure#gref

 

You have a good Motorsports Club near you and a good track.

http://eastayrshirecc.co.uk/track

 

 

A Zoe would be PDG.

 

 

 

 

Edited 10 November, 20214 yr by roottoot

11 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

I'm old enough now that a diesel costs £250-300 and an EV was £350 if you were lucky, but more like £550-600.
These are prices for long range EV.

 

What I found interesting was that the excess on EV was more like £250-400 mandatory excess vs £0-£100 on a diesel.

 

  

 

Interesting, we're driving an ID3 shortly so shall compare, but anything on the longer range or AWD bracket seems to jack the prices up high.

Was it an ID4 max or just an ID4 with the standard battery if you don't mind me asking?

My car is an ID.4 first edition. RWD 77kWh (82 gross) battery. 150ps (204HP) motor. Excess is £250 mandatory IIRC. These are exactly the same terms as my Karoq was. The Karoq was about £300 to insure and the ID.4 the same. Full NCB, protected on a multi-car policy (along with the Citigo) from Admiral. The £300 is the premium for the ID.4, Citigo is charged an additional premium.

I'd put it all on the comparison sites, it looks like I will have to do some more digging.

26 minutes ago, AnnoyingPentium said:

 

 

I did a comparison insurance check for myself between a 89ps 2014 Renault Zoe (worth £7k) and a PD100 2007 Skoda Fabia Ambiente (worth about £1,400). Both insurance policies are the same, 17 y/o passed in August '21, named driver driving since 1999 no accidents, 11k a year in mileage, no modifications, £50 excess. Those policies include a telematics box

 

 

 

That price difference is £675.66 in a year between the Fabia and the Zoe. This is not something, like other young people paying similar for current ICE cars, that I could afford to pay in terms of insurance for a car of this nature, even monthly. So even if it doesn't affect those with NCB and more driving experience, it will penalise those just starting out into the world of motoring, such as myself. In this case, it still makes more sense to operate the diesel, especially since some councils (area dependant) are introducing fees, as @roottoot has outlined in previous posts.

 

Anyway, I shall crawl back into the hole from whence I came unless to provide further information

It is entirely possible that the difference in premium between these cars is accounted for in the difference in the value of the cars. To make a fair comparison, you should use a newer Fabia worth about £7k 

1 hour ago, AnnoyingPentium said:

 

I see what you're getting at here, but; 1. there'd be an audible groan from the VW Marketing Team if they called it the Hindenburg, 2. I'm not against hydrogen powered cars, it is an interesting concept that I'd like to see go somewhere as I'm interested in the advancements of cars, within reason, 3. It was merely a vague attempt at humour from me in potentially poor taste.

 

 

This sounds quite interesting. I shall research this in my free time.

 

Be carefull, it became a rabbit-hole for me and also a friend in Dublin who I casually mentioned it to.

 

For myself, it being not far from me piqued my interest,I discovered a forgotten tragedy with a political and colonial back story from what seems in hindsight a different world.

32 minutes ago, Luckypants said:

It is entirely possible that the difference in premium between these cars is accounted for in the difference in the value of the cars. To make a fair comparison, you should use a newer Fabia worth about £7k 

Vehicle value is pretty much inconsequential in their risk assessment, the damage to other vehicles, property, personal injury claims, claims for permanent disability and all the false or inflated ones encouraged by the Ambulance chasers is the vast majority of their liability, its why there is relatively little difference in fully comp & third part only insurance premiums, there is a much bigger gap in my country where the claims culture does not exist but the Third Party liability remains the greater part of the risk assessment and premiums.

 

Even when insurers pay out on say a £10K vehicle their loss is far far less, the excess is deducted, they will get up to 60% back guaranteed from salvage dependant on the category without any costs, the deal is done globally in advance with the salvage yards according to category, there is no negotiation on individual vehicles, they recover or collect them, store them, allow access to examiners then have to pay a fixed percenteage when they are "cleared" by the insurers.

 

The insurers then cancel the remaining term of the insurance without refund of premium and will charge the client more for many years to come on their subsequent vehicle(s), they move to another company who will do the same and the ex clients of that company will move to another possibly the first one, its a merry go round where they always win.

2 hours ago, Luckypants said:

So you will stop, to walk the dog and toilet / feed the children and for everyone to stretch their legs. So a 30 minute stop when the car is charging 'while you get on with your day'.

That's fine IF you can get onto a rapid charger - but the reality at the moment is that the number of rapid chargers at the motorway service areas I've stopped at this year is between 2 & 8 (the average being 4).

How many petrol/diesel pumps is there at most motorway service areas? - 12, 16,... - something like that.

 

So clearly on anything approaching a busy day (don't even think about the extreme holiday days on the M5 through Somerset and Devon) the strong likelihood is that there will not be a free rapid charger and unless you want a stop that is likely to extend to an hour (or maybe even 2) then you will want enough range to be able to move on to the next stop (in another 2 hours and 100+ miles).

 

I still contend that unless and until there are as many rapid chargers at EVERY motorway service area (and equivalent on major roads) you need enough range to cover at least 6 hours driving (to allow for unavailable rapid chargers plus some margin) in winter which means a 300 miles WINTER range, hence my figure of a manufacturers figure of 400 miles.

1 hour ago, Luckypants said:

It is entirely possible that the difference in premium between these cars is accounted for in the difference in the value of the cars. To make a fair comparison, you should use a newer Fabia worth about £7k 

 

I will correct this later on. I hadn't taken this into consideration. Thanks

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

@AnnoyingPentium  A favour please.

 

Try a 2016 VW Up! 1.0 automatic   and a 2016 VW e-Up!  for the difference in insurance.

 

http://heycar.co.uk/guides/cheapest-electric-cars-to-insure

 

http://carwow.co.uk/blog/cheapest-electric-cars-to-insure#gref

 

You have a good Motorsports Club near you and a good track.

http://eastayrshirecc.co.uk/track

 

 

A Zoe would be PDG.

 

 

 

 

 

I'll give a bash when I return home, George. I will report my findings back to here.

30 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

That's fine IF you can get onto a rapid charger - but the reality at the moment is that the number of rapid chargers at the motorway service areas I've stopped at this year is between 2 & 8 (the average being 4).

How many petrol/diesel pumps is there at most motorway service areas? - 12, 16,... - something like that.

 

So clearly on anything approaching a busy day (don't even think about the extreme holiday days on the M5 through Somerset and Devon) the strong likelihood is that there will not be a free rapid charger and unless you want a stop that is likely to extend to an hour (or maybe even 2) then you will want enough range to be able to move on to the next stop (in another 2 hours and 100+ miles).

 

I still contend that unless and until there are as many rapid chargers at EVERY motorway service area (and equivalent on major roads) you need enough range to cover at least 6 hours driving (to allow for unavailable rapid chargers plus some margin) in winter which means a 300 miles WINTER range, hence my figure of a manufacturers figure of 400 miles.

I take your point about charger availability at peak times, as this is already a problem on busy routes at lunchtimes and holiday times. This is resolving quickly though and should become a thing of the past. However, I do not think you will get to the situation with chargers that we now have with filling stations with multiple pumps everywhere. The model is different. If you want to run a fossil car, you have to visit a filling station, so there is a guarantee of local users as well as travellers. Many EV owners will be able to charge at home, so the local custom is not there. I think it will be multiple chargers on busy routes like motorways and trunk roads, with conveniently spaced rapids on other routes so you can top up when needed. From my experience, I would say many more destination chargers are needed, to charge when you reach your goal ready for the return trip.

Edited 10 November, 20214 yr by Luckypants

I've been saying this for so long, consistently.

 

EV as daily driver, it is no question it's a far better car, as long as you can charge at home.

EV as long range car, it depends entirely on quality and quantity of the rapid charging network.

 

Until we can blanket half the motorway services with mid-journey rapid chargers. Until we can guarantee a rapid charger the moment we park at service area car park.......  We should focus on making EV accessible for everyone by blanket install flat parking spots and workplace with destination chargers.

 

Then to drive long distance, just need to hire a compatible range extender of some sort for your chosen car. See my post in first page.

 

Get everyone used to plugged in, get everyone's 80-90% usage (daily drives) off fossil fuel first.

34 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I've been saying this for so long, consistently.

 

EV as daily driver, it is no question it's a far better car, as long as you can charge at home.

EV as long range car, it depends entirely on quality and quantity of the rapid charging network.

 

Until we can blanket half the motorway services with mid-journey rapid chargers. Until we can guarantee a rapid charger the moment we park at service area car park.......  We should focus on making EV accessible for everyone by blanket install flat parking spots and workplace with destination chargers.

 

Then to drive long distance, just need to hire a compatible range extender of some sort for your chosen car. See my post in first page.

 

Get everyone used to plugged in, get everyone's 80-90% usage (daily drives) off fossil fuel first.

 

In my first 1000 miles I have ventured 125 miles from home and I have not paid for a single penny of highway charging.  I have charged at home for about 800 miles of the lecky and charged 200 miles either at work or a nice restaurant I stopped at which has an 11 kw charger.

 

Charging at home was nearly all at 5p a kwh so that 800 miles cost £10 and the 200 miles at the food place was free (incl in the visit I suppose) and work do not charge either so basically a tenner to driver over a thousand miles and I could have done it for less as I did not need to leave home in Worcestershire for work at Heathrow with 100% I should have left with 60%, arrived at LHR with about 10 or 5% and then charged up to 100% but it is only a quid difference and I was experimenting.    

 

ZAP news....

Number of public charging points by speed (2016-to 10th Nov-2021)

Type	Slow	Fast	Rapid	Ultra-rapid
2016	910	4663	823	150
2017	968	6002	961	262
2018	1297	7846	1571	340
2019	3366	10718	2411	476
2020	4570	12464	3142	788
2021 (YTD)	6608	15454	3807	1226

 

Total devices: 27096, Updated: 10 November 2021

The chart shows the breakdown of charge point devices by slow (3-5kW), fast (7-22kW), rapid (25-99kW) and ultra-rapid (100kW+) power rating for the past five years and 2021 to date. As the chart reveals, the past few years has seen a dramatic increase in the number of public EV charge points in the UK. Between the end of 2016 and 2020 there has been an increase of 220% in the number of public chargers. Another trend is the growth in slow chargers, as local authorities install on-street charging options to enable EV purchase for people without off-street parking.

Edited 10 November, 20214 yr by lol-lol

The problem with people replacing ICE vehicles with EVs is that they think they're saving the planet when they aren't.  Everything that's made has some CO2 or other environmental costs associated.

 

I don't think anyone that owns a newish, fairly fuel efficient, normal car should be getting rid of it for an EV.  Simply look at using your normal car less - if Covid has taught us anything it's that we don't need to be driving around as much as we think we do.

A real life week away in an EV. (OK a very expensive one) Shows that its not a big deal.
 

 

What would be quite neat in this day-and-age of ultra-connected society is if people could formally offer online their home charging facilities to others while they are not in active use, on a fee-charged, profit-making basis. AirB&B-ish?  

Does this exist yet?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. Look up Zap-home (by Zap-map) and / or Co-charger apps.

 

 

 

Edited 10 November, 20214 yr by Luckypants

8 hours ago, roottoot said:

A favour please.

 

Try a 2016 VW Up! 1.0 automatic   and a 2016 VW e-Up!  for the difference in insurance.

 

 

Here are my findings...

 

'leccy Up!, 2016 valued at £7,500

 

 

High Up! Auto 75 Petrol, also valued at £7,500 for a 2016 model:

 

 

The difference here isn't as great, but both prices are more than I'd pay considering I pay quite a bit less now. The stats entered were the same as earlier in regards to mileage etc. I tried to make it as even as possible.

Edited 10 November, 20214 yr by AnnoyingPentium

11 hours ago, AnnoyingPentium said:

 

Here are my findings...

 

'leccy Up!, 2016 valued at £7,500

 

 

High Up! Auto 75 Petrol, also valued at £7,500 for a 2016 model:

 

 

The difference here isn't as great, but both prices are more than I'd pay considering I pay quite a bit less now. The stats entered were the same as earlier in regards to mileage etc. I tried to make it as even as possible.

 

My insurance did not go up at all going from a 5 year old 1.4 TSI Octy, 150 hp, worth about £8k, to the Zoe, £34k RRP, 135 hp, only paid a few quick transfer fee.

 

Most EVs have masses of safety sub systems, I think there are something like over 20 on the Zoe ....  All the usual ESP etc and as well Blind spot, lane departure etc etc.  https://www.renaultgroup.com/en/news-on-air/news/new-zoe-a-whole-suite-of-driving-aids/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beneath the aerodynamic lines of the New ZOE lies a completely remodelled electrical architecture. It houses several advanced driver-assistance systems (ADAS) that contribute to both the comfort and safety of the car’s occupants, starting with the driver! Find out more.

BY RENAULT GROUP

True to their belief that an electric car should be practical and fit easily into everyday life, Renault took advantage of the new ZOE design process to redesign the entirety of its electrical architecture. What was Renault’s goal ? To make it easier to integrate and provide power to the components required by technologies designed to aid drivers, or ADAS (Advanced Driver-Assistance Systems).   These systems rely on an array of sensors, cameras and radar. Located all around the car, they observe the conditions of the surrounding environment in order to guide a driver’s movements and improve the safety of both the vehicle and its occupants. The ADAS on board the new ZOE focus on aiding the driver, safety and parking assistance.  

DRIVING

A feature like automatic recognition of traffic signals can, for example, helps keep the driver informed of the current speed limit in real time. It combines GPS data with images transmitted from the front camera to keep the maximum speed allowed permanently displayed on the built-in 10-inch display. A high-speed alert rounds out the information provided, as a warning sign is displayed when driving too fast.  Without having to worry about watching speed, the driver can focus their attention on other parameters of driving. In the same way, the blind spot warning alerts the driver when there is an obstacle or another vehicle near the rear sides of their own car, preventing a dangerous lane change when a motorcycle is about to overtake you, for example.

SAFETY

Most driver assistance technologies help to prevent risks, but some can take on a more active role, demonstrating a real capacity to respond to problems. Such is the case with automatic emergency braking, a system that can trigger the car’s braking mechanism if the driver does not react quickly enough to an obstacle.  As for the lane departure warning system and lane keep assist, they protect against any driving lapses that may be caused by drowsiness or distractions.

 

 

Edited 11 November, 20214 yr by lol-lol

Also EVs are seeing strong residuals which is leading to low PCP costs.

 

Not many other £35k cars would have a PCP of less than £300 these days as the second hand value of diesels is less than petrol cars now.

 

Surprisingly also the average annual mileage of a EV is higher than the average mileage for a petrol EV I gather. 

 

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

provide power to the components required by technologies designed to aid drivers

Alternatively; to suck power back out of the batteries as quickly as possible.

Electric is what is used to power the various features and the vehicle.  It is electricity that powers them with an ICE vehicle as well but the liquid fuel providing the energy to move the vehicle to  provide  / generate the electricity.   Many of the features now on any new cars on sale become compulsory fitment from the factory next year on passenger cars regardless of which fuel powers them.        PS, it is nice that it is possible to go get electricity for FREE to power your vehicle and the components.  Or even just cheap electricity.   No place I know is giving away petrol, diesel or LPG to the general motoring public to do their journeys. 

Edited 11 November, 20214 yr by roottoot

1 hour ago, KenONeill said:

Alternatively; to suck power back out of the batteries as quickly as possible.

 

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

Electric is what is used to power the various features and the vehicle.  It is electricity that powers them with an ICE vehicle as well but the liquid fuel providing the energy to move the vehicle to  provide  / generate the electricity.   Many of the features now on any new cars on sale become compulsory fitment from the factory next year on passenger cars regardless of which fuel powers them.        PS, it is nice that it is possible to go get electricity for FREE to power your vehicle and the components.  Or even just cheap electricity.   No place I know is giving away petrol, diesel or LPG to the general motoring public to do their journeys. 

I think Ken is more concerned about the limited energy stored in the battery......

1 hour ago, KenONeill said:

Alternatively; to suck power back out of the batteries as quickly as possible.

 

The countries with the highest percentage of EVs are places like Norway and Sweden and there cars tend to have seat warmers, and heated steering wheel and even battery heaters to help the traction battery work as efficiently as possible.  Us EV fan boys follow those Nordic, and German Journalists and Youtubers as there experience and sharing, as well as Robert Llewelyn, guy from Red Dwarf, whose dedication deserves a knighthood in my opinion.

 

I did not go for any of that as I thought I could go without heated seat, my arse has enough insulation to keep my core temperature up and my size 12 hands rarely get cold but a pair of driving gloves for the first 5 minutes until the Heat Pump kicks in will suffice.

 

The windscreen clearing of the Zoe rivals a Ford or other car with heated windscreen as it is near instantaneous at providing hot air to the windscreen and I can use the my Renault App to start the process whilst I am on my final slice of peanut butter on toast and last sips of coffee whilst it is still connected to my Pod Point Home Charger.  Maybe not at the 5p a kwh but sadly at the 15p but hey ho, all renewable power and expect I am only talking about 10 p of lecky to pre-prep the car.  See how it goes getting colder but looking good so far.

 

My October 2020 lecky bill including about 150 kwh of EV charging. 4 bedroom detached home in West Midlands.   

 

Breakdown by rate
Rate Consumption Cost
4.76p/kWh 165.0 kWh £7.853
14.90p/kWh 226.0 kWh £33.677
Total consumption 391.0kWh @ 10.62p/kWh † £41.53
Standing Charge 31 days @ 23.81p/day £7.38
Subtotal of charges before VAT £48.91
VAT @ 5.00% £2.45
Total Electricity Charges £51.36    

 

  

I have not logged in at the charger @ Tesco 4 times because just sitting for 15 minutes.

That is about 70 kWh free electric this month from them & another 60 kWh on CPS Chargers so 130 kWk x 2.5 miles per kWh is 325 miles of not buying petrol or diesel.

Not buying HotDrinks / Softdrinks , munchies or other such while charging as many do. 

 

I have bought both petrol and diesel to top up vehicles as they are sitting not getting used other than for the odd mile being done.

MOT due on my Diesel next week.  It has only done 400 miles since the last MOT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2019

 

 

Edited 11 November, 20214 yr by roottoot

24 minutes ago, roottoot said:

I have not logged in at the charger @ Tesco 4 times because just sitting for 15 minutes.

That is about 70 kWh free electric this month from them & another 60 kWh on CPS Chargers so 130 kWk x 2.5 miles per kWh is 325 miles of not buying petrol or diesel.

Not buying HotDrinks / Softdrinks , munchies or other such while charging as many do. 

 

I have bought both petrol and diesel to top up vehicles as they are sitting not getting used other than for the odd mile being done.

MOT due on my Diesel next week.  It has only done 400 miles since the last MOT.

 

That could be a scary calculation as to annual cost of the car ie   

 

= insurance,road tax, MOT and fuel used, servicing cost 

                      400 miles travelled . 

 

You might be in Bugatti Veyron territory there. 

My motorcycle is probably another vehicle with a scary pounds per mile amount.

 

 

Edited 11 November, 20214 yr by lol-lol