How much time do you warm-up your Felicia?

[nta16]

Sorry I did not make myself clear, I do not think that the TC-6 has any control over the fuelling or engine, only that it monitors.  I personally doubt its absolute precision but it might be good and if its accuracy remains constant then it is a reasonable measuring tool.

 

However if it splices into the factory wiring at any point, especially to a factory sensor, then that brings in a possibility of electric and electronic funny business.

 

[D.FYLAKTOS]

Another night cold-start test, the result? DISASTER!

3,45 minutes from the start and 1100 rpm till the needle drops to 800. I have it on video, tomorrow i will post some photos.

So it's not the coolant sensor nor the cables and the fuel consumption was 11,96 ltr / 100 km.

I have to find the guilty for this terrible situation and now i am focused on spark-plugs, maybe it's time for a change and let the good old RC89PYC platinum aside....

[nta16]

13 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

So it's not the coolant sensor nor the cables

Doubtful that it is the coolant sensor given what you have previously put - wiring generally , as I put before.

 

 

14 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

now i am focused on spark-plugs, maybe it's time for a change and let the good old RC89PYC platinum aside....

I am not one for saying "it won't be that" but I can not see how the spark plugs will have the effect to cause the issues, they appear to start the engine easily, they do not misfire or cause other engine issues so how would they give effect to the longer high idle and high fuel consumption.  They in themselves do not vary their operation.

 

[D.FYLAKTOS]

10 hours ago, nta16 said:

I am not one for saying "it won't be that" but I can not see how the spark plugs will have the effect to cause the issues

 

Due to Covid restrictions plus 2 times Quarantine the car works for 2,5 years worst than a taxi because even a taxi can travel in a boulevard for 4th gear for some time.

I work mainly 1st-2nd and a little bit the 3rd gear only for few seconds and all these 2 years i had the chance to make a trip only one time and even when the coolant was wrong i had a very good fuel consumption.

The last days i read articles about Hot and Cold spark plugs and i see video where mechanics suggest one level to the Hot spark plugs for car which work mainly on city traffic.

 

As for the coolant sensors i have tested 3 totally and the effect was the same, the 2nd cold start lasts 3:40-3:45 minutes which is absolutely unacceptable.

[D.FYLAKTOS]

Here are 2 snapshots from last night cold start.

 

 

 

 

Took 3:35 minutes, this is not normal !

[nta16]

Spark plugs has been covered before, the plugs suggested were as factory standard car as your car is programmed the programmer I would have thought would mention or suggest if he thought different plugs might be need but I doubt he was tuning the car for the type of use you had.

 

You could try different heat plugs as they may help with that type of use but would they be as good generally over a whole range of driving conditions, I do not know, they might be better if they suit your programming.

 

I was surprised at the recommendation of platinum for factory cars, as it was the range of plugs was wider than I expected anyway.

 

You probably have seen it already but attached is a NGK publication.

ngk_zuendkerzen_code_en.pdf

Edited 13 February, 2022 by nta16

[D.FYLAKTOS]

Champion platinum were made at early 80's. Now i doubt if they are ok for my "tuned" Felicia.

 

I made a quick measure to an older set of Champion, guess what? ALL of them had wrong gap and none had the proper 0,8mm so the theory that "the gap is adjusted by the company" is wrong!

More in a next post, i am on the smartphone now and i don't have time.

[nta16]

Gaps get wider with use - but as I put before, and Champion put in the link I put up, the gaps on new plugs should always be checked before installation and if not correct to their specification (and if factory gapped, olds ones were not) then returned the plug(s) to the seller.  They could have been dropped, customers swapping them, production or packaging errors, who knows.

 

"Do Spark Plugs Always Have to Be Gapped?

Not always.  In the past, it was necessary to gap spark plugs, but today spark plugs are usually pre-gapped. It is advisable to double check that the gap is correctly set to the vehicle's recommended setting when installing spark plugs." - https://www.championautoparts.com/Technical/Tech-Tips/Spark-Plug-Gap-Tip.html

 

CHOOSING THE RIGHT SPARK PLUG GAP TOOL - https://www.championautoparts.com/Technical/Tech-Tips/choosing-the-right-spark-plug-gap-tool.html

 

Away from plugs, generally, when getting any new parts it is best to inspect them, offer up to check fitment and if possible even test fit before change or use as they could be wrong for many various reasons.

 

Edited 10 February, 2022 by nta16

[nta16]

More info and conformation. -

 

"3. Gapping fine-wire spark plugs

While most NGK spark plugs are pre-gapped, there are occasions when the gap requires adjustment.  Care must be taken to avoid bending or breaking off the fine-wire electrodes.  NGK recommends a round wire-style or pin gauge gap tool to measure the gap.  If the gap must be adjusted, use a tool that only moves the ground electrode and does not pry between or against the electrodes.  NGK also recommends adjusting the gap no more than +/- 0.008” [0.2mm] from the factory preset gap." - https://ngksparkplugs.com/en/resources/5-things-you-should-know-about-spark-plugs

 

DO I NEED TO SET THE “GAP” WHEN INSTALLING A NEW SET OF PLUGS? - https://ngksparkplugs.com/en/resources/set-gap-when-installing-new-plugs

 

"SHOULD I GAP MY DENSO PLUGS? -

Even if the preset gap matches that required by your engine, it is always good practice to physically check the gap as it may have shifted during transportation (not all spark plugs are packaged in a way that protects the firing end ). *Gapping is not recommended on multi-ground plugs." - https://www.densoproducts.com/should-i-gap-my-denso-plugs

 

Also -

"Fine Wire Plugs

Spark Plug manufacturers typically warn against gapping fine wire spark plugs due to the fragile nature of their electrodes.  They say a fine wire plug will outperform a standard spark plug, even if not properly gapped.  However, Denso understands a plug can only operate to its optimum potential if properly gapped.  Proper gapping technique should be followed with any spark plug, but special care should be taken with fine wire plugs.  Denso will not warranty a plug who’s center electrode is snapped during gapping."

 

Edited 10 February, 2022 by nta16

[D.FYLAKTOS]

Those Champion golden boys give to the European customer this option while searching for spark plugs for his car

https://www.championautoparts.com/Products/Spark-Plugs.html

 

Guess what? NO Skoda option so how in the heck the customer will find them?

Yes lot of infos and blah-blah but where is the guide for Skoda customers you #@$£¥rs?

https://www.championautoparts.eu/support/catalogues.html

I am very angry, i will start looking for NGK this time.

[nta16]

58 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

Those Champion golden boys give to the European customer this option while searching for spark plugs for his car

https://www.championautoparts.com/Products/Spark-Plugs.html

That site is US of A, they didn't get Skodas, I only linked to it it as a quick reference to your plug manufacturer of choice.

 

I do not know if the following link will work for you, and even if it does it will not improve your mood as it list 9 possible plugs for the 68hp engine in Champion codes -

EON1/287 - EON1/286 - CET12PSB - CET12P - OE182/T10 - OE182/R04 - CCH9806 - OE145/T10 -OE145/R04.

 

https://www.championautoparts.co.uk/catalogue.html#fitment_id=11193&search_type=vehicle&subcategory_id=686

 

 

Edited 10 February, 2022 by nta16

[D.FYLAKTOS]

2 hours ago, nta16 said:

Gaps get wider with use

 

These are the measurements of 4 Champion platinum sprak plugs with 10.000 Km of use:

0,93 mm

0,889 mm

0,88 mm

0,889 mm

The gap as new should be o,8 mm so are these numbers normal or not?

[nta16]

0,93 mm = 0.03661417" - (0.0365") - (36.5 thou)

0,889 mm = 0.035" - (35 thou)

0,88 mm = 0.03464567" - (0.0345") - (34.5 thou)

0,889 mm = 0.035" - (35 thou) 

 

The DIY blade feeler gauges we use over here work to thousandths of an inch.  So 0.001" steps normally but the set might include 0.0015" and 0.0025" blades too, so to four decimal places at a push.

 

So apart from the first gap you list the set of four is within "half a thou" so nothing to get too excited about and beyond my ability with a feeler gauge. 

 

You would have to ask your tuner if the gap when new for those plugs would remain at factory (Champion or Skoda?) setting for his programming or not and it depends on their use (mileage) how much they might wear from whatever was the gapping.

 

Others here or viewing will know know a lot more than I about plugs, as I put I use whichever suitable NGK (copper) plugs are available at a good price and change every two years (if not before), I do check the gaps (and sometimes clean) at least each year.

 

Edited 10 February, 2022 by nta16

[nta16]

If you have measured the gaps (to three decimal mm places) with a cheap digital caliper do you know its accuracy.

 

"Dead on balls accurate?" "It's an industry term."

 

A quote misses out Marisa Tomei though.

 

 

[D.FYLAKTOS]

Unfortunately, the charts given by the companies do not help you to choose a spark plug for exampe 1 scale higher or lower.  It is not like the tires that show the difference in features immediately.  

For example, NGK gives only 2 spark plugs for my car, but the English dealership is different from the Greek one at iridium.

 

https://www.ngkpartfinder.co.uk/catalogues/cars/search/spark-plugs/SKODA/FELICIA/2001/

 

https://www.ngkntk.com/gr/anazitisi-proionton/productfinder/category/PKW-ZK_BENZINER/product/13399/?cHash=2bc3c3884d933655f48a9d6938a16258

 

So if the small difference in the gap isn't the ''guilty'' then who's next to blame?

Someone must fault! 

[danilob]

Hi D.Fylaktos! I read all the thread, hopefully I didn't miss anything. I don't let my car warming up at idle, just a minute of normal driving and the revs are exactly 850 (with a slightly fluctuation of about + - 30 rpm). I had a similar problem with my Felicia. I have never had fuel consumption problem as my Felicia, in a highway going 110 km/h did an amazing 650 Km before the low fuel warning light turned on. Anyway, Recently I have noticed that my cold starts are not like they used to be. I mean, I used to have 1100 rpm, then within a minute of normal driving they fell down to 850. Now I have like 980 rpm on cold starts (in this period, it's about -2°C). Everything is the same, I didn't change anything. The only thing I did was resetting the adaptation of the throttle body with motordiag simos manager and VAG-COM after a good cleaning, as I had the famous sticking idle problem. To me it's not a problem, the car warms up fine, temperature is fine and runs ok (despite spark knocks when hot as described in my thread)

[D.FYLAKTOS]

@danilob so it's not my spark plugs fault? In the link from your thread i noticed the charcoal valve which is inside the engine bay, is it wise to change it or not?

https://jmjm.cz/detailwm.php?791-simos/sani/045

Maybe the 3:44 idle issue it's an ECU problem that can be solved after a visit to another programmer?

 

 

[nta16]

D.FYLAKTOS did your plugs look particularly fouled considering the cars use and mileage on the plugs?  If not then going to hotter plugs will not help.  If you did want to then you would have to contact the plug manufacturers who would probably only offer what is in their databases that you have already seen.

 

Road car engines just off standard are not race or specialist machines and your engine is of a much older design than 2000 despite its added computer.  If you look at possible cross-references for the engine which includes different heat range figures you will be into dozens if not hundreds and you will find many have been superseded or not sold in your area.  Chasing the individual plug cross-references will have you going around in circles until you disappear - as Scotty would put it, up your own wazhoo.

 

If your plugs are meant to be set to 0.8mm then resetting them to 0.8mm is a good idea, sooner you than me messing about with the silly three-prongs, and very gentle cleaning if you can not drive in a very spirted way "to blow the soot off".

 

So far you are only going by the TC-6 figures to say your car is drinking petrol like it is going out of fashion, you need another method of consumption to verify these figures otherwise they could be as accurate as later VW claims.  Given your description of the driving conditions it is no surprise the consumption is higher. 

 

If there is a problem it could be because of any of the things listed before or even a combination or permutation of two or more.  The ECU and/or its programming are in the possibilities but the possibilities are not restricted to only these.

  

Edited 10 February, 2022 by nta16
spelling

[danilob]

Usually a bad EVAP valve will throw an error in the ECU. I have tried multielectrode OEM NGK BKUR5ET-10 spark plug and I didn't like it at all, now I have BRISK DR15YS which are a grade colder (designed for CNG converted engine) and with a single electrode. They are really good, maybe next time I will try the OEM Champion. Spark plug gap should always be 0.8 mm. How is your valves clearance? (Sorry if I have missed it in your thread). Oh, I forgot to mention, my idle speed raised slightly with a new alternator, the old alternator was not putting enough volts for a proper spark. Is your Felicia an MPI? If so then check the coil pack for burn marks around the rubber parts. If not check the integrity of the distributor or the spark plug cables

[D.FYLAKTOS]

8 minutes ago, danilob said:

I have tried multielectrode OEM NGK BKUR5ET-10 spark plug and I didn't like it at all

 

How is your valves clearance?

 

Is your Felicia an MPI?

 

of the distributor or the spark plug cables

Me neither, i opened a thread for them.

0,25 in and 0,20 out.

Yes, i bought it at 2000, no ABS and airbags.

I have DIS.

I spray the coil pack each time i change the spark plugs.

 

Tonight the fuel consumption was 11,6 ltr  which means veeeeeery little better...

[nta16]

52 minutes ago, danilob said:

now I have BRISK DR15YS which are a grade colder (designed for CNG converted engine) and with a single electrode. They are really good, maybe next time I will try the OEM Champion

@danilob try NGK LPG1 they are also for CNG as well as LPG. - https://www.ngkpartfinder.co.uk/assets/catalogue/info/LPG_info-ver2.pdf

 

Edited 10 February, 2022 by nta16

[nta16]

@danilob definitely checking the valves before every so and if they really need adjusting doing so before checking, and adjusting if required  the ignition, plugs, timing and mixture in that order - but do not get too carried away with checking the valves too regularly especially once you have the engine running well.

 

I used to chase the valve clearances at every annual service and if I did other work, you could be adjusting them almost non-stop if you check too often.  I have a mate that works for an engineering company that works on and sets up classic car and other engines including those for the race track and he said not to worry too much about exact specification figures because as soon as the engine starts they could be out from the exact settings you have just spent ages setting, checking, resetting again and checking again.  When he set mine he had them a lot tighter than me and locked the nuts a lot tighter than me and only quickly checked them once.  I am now only going to adjust mine if they get a lot nosier than normal, and they are always noisy as the rocker cover is only thin metal and there is no under bonnet insulation.  These old engines did not work to close tolerances when they were first built so do not expect them to decades of use later.

 

[D.FYLAKTOS]

16 hours ago, nta16 said:

The DIY blade feeler gauges

 

I use a Coin, i have a feeler blade but the Coin is more easy to use.

 

[nta16]

2 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

I use a Coin, i have a feeler blade but the Coin is more easy to use.

See my previous post about gapping the plugs.

 

The coin is fine but not perhaps over accurate which may explain some of the gap variation on your plugs and best not judged with the use of a more precise measuring tool (all based on accuracy too of course).

 

Again absolute precision on the plug gap is not crucially important on our cars but bear in mind the coin is best not used on fine tips.

 

[D.FYLAKTOS]

1 hour ago, nta16 said:

The coin is fine but not perhaps over accurate which may explain some of the gap variation on your plugs

 

I will make a thoroughly use of cleaning spray on the air intake manifold and then (when the car is cold) i will inspect the gap of my spark plugs or i will install new set after i check their gap with the feeler blade.