Yes check the gap and adjust if required but then it can wait until the next annual service.  I would not change the plugs if they can be adjusted and still have good life in them before optimum replacement time, just for the waste of resources.  IIRC a mate gets his plugs so cheap he never adjusts just replaces.  I once got a good number of NOS (New Old Stock) Champion plugs at a good low price, enough to last me years but when one was found with cracked insulator I gave the rest away and went over to NGK as many others had with similar cars.

 

I am trying to figure out about NGK spark plugs

https://www.ngkpartfinder.co.uk/catalogues/cars/search/spark-plugs/SKODA/FELICIA/2001/

 

https://www.ngkntk.com/gr/anazitisi-proionton/productfinder/category/PKW-ZK_BENZINER/product/13399/?cHash=2bc3c3884d933655f48a9d6938a16258

They disagree for iridium and agree to platinum but i don't want the BKUR5ET-10 again, so what option do i have with NGK brand?

 

On the other hand i changed the way of driving from night cold start to the 1st traffic light, i hate to wait 3:44 inside the parking garage till the idle drops to 800 rpm so i wait only 20 seconds and then start driving normally. 

D.FYLAKTOS - "They disagree for iridium and agree to platinum but i don't want the BKUR5ET-10 again".

 

This may well just be a sales region thing as they do not list BKR5EIX on the site via a site search. 

 

You are only using petrol so quite probably a whole lot of NGK and other manufacturers plugs would be suitable but VW picked on one possibly for a multitude of reasons, the engine basically went back decades even when new (or over 100 years generally) but they were using a newer ignition system and oils and petrols were changed and changing.  I am sure VW being a German engineering quality company made the decision purely on engineering grounds and nothing to do with production cost or marketing deals with any plug manufacturer.

 

I was going to suggest a very plain old style Champion plug you could try, but as you can probably appreciate from the few searches you have done, it was so difficult to prove the lineage and full details of the possible plug(s) because they had been superseded and lists amalgamated so many times over the decades.

 

D.FYLAKTOS - "so what option do i have with NGK brand?"

So to answer your question -

as the UK NGK site does not list BKR5EIX (11) and the Greek(?) one does that is the one I would go for, plus it is one grade warmer which you wanted.

 

One The Green Spark Plug Limited site SKODA FELICIA 1289cc MPI MULTI ELECTRODE AMGAMHAMJ 96->01 lists three plugs, one of which is BKR5EIX11.  AFAIK the 11 will be a 1.1mm pre-set so you only need check it and install if correct.  -https://www.gsparkplug.com/tag/10370/SKODA FELICIA 1289cc MPI MULTI ELECTRODE AMGAMHAMJ 96->01

 

I saw this plug as a possibility before but as you did not want iridium I did not chase it up, see pdf (page 2) for upgrade conformation from 2016.  You should really find your own back up collaboration in case I have made any mistakes, I often do.

 

NGK_Upgrades.pdf

 

Edited 11 February, 20224 yr by nta16
missing word

20 minutes ago, nta16 said:

as you did not want iridium

Many years back i had a serious problem with Denso iridium, was before the internet-forum era and i bought what the seller told me without knowing the risk.

I don't remember their code but i think that the seller gave me wrong reference that's why 2 times the car turned off itself while i was driving, i was one step away from a crash!

I use iridium spark plug in an old motorcycle 30+ years old and works amazing.

1 hour ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

Many years back i had a serious problem with Denso iridium, was before the internet-forum era and i bought what the seller told me without knowing the risk.

I don't remember their code but i think that the seller gave me wrong reference that's why 2 times the car turned off itself while i was driving, i was one step away from a crash!

I use iridium spark plug in an old motorcycle 30+ years old and works amazing.

The other day a poster on another section found the Fabia he had recently bought had the wrong spark plugs as their reach was too short, the car still ran.  That is the thing there will be a range of plugs that will fit and work in your car as long as they are the correct reach and heat but some may not work as well and then others work great but they also need to be good across the whole range of use of the car not just in traffic or spirited driving.  With older cars, some combinations work good on one car but the same combination on another car of the same model and year not so well, less precision years back and of course use and abuse since the cars left the factory.

 

Now I understand why you are so careful about your plug selection but remember I AM NOT a mechanic or expert in anything I was just chasing numbers so do check yourself too.

 

Generally it used to be that older cars liked the copper plugs but if yours was originally spec'd for platinum a change to iridium is not such a big step.

 

Hold on ... if you have a motorbike why are you using your car on such short city journeys, is it too big or wrongly geared for city use.

 

Edited 11 February, 20224 yr by nta16

10 hours ago, nta16 said:

The other day a poster on another section found the Fabia he had recently bought had the wrong spark plugs as their reach was too short, the car still ran. 

 

Hold on ... if you have a motorbike why are you using your car on such short city journeys, is it too big or wrongly geared for city use.

 

1st time after a traffic light in a crossroad i had to turn, i was first and after few meters the car turned-off, the others stopped behind me pushing horns etc, the car couldn't start, the green light opened for the others and as you can imagine i caused a mess in three lines.

2nd time i was in an uphill with second gear and middle to high rpm and the car turned-off suddenly, immediately pushed the brake pedal and turned the alarm, behind me were other cars which started to horn, i roll down the window making hand signals ''go-go" and everybody slander at me because they thought that i stopped (in the worst position) in purpose.

3rd time i was parked on the side of the road, turn the car on right flash steering wheel full right first gear and after one meter the car turned-off. Everybody stopped in a line and expected from me to go, i couldn't so they started to horn and i could do anything than come out and make them a sign that the car is ''out" and must wait.

That was THE END of Denso iridium and since 2003 i didn't want even to hear about those spark plugs.

 

I am not young any more and i have a family, i winter i use the small motorcycle for shopping at down-town, i don't like the ''heavy" dress for rain etc and i cannot go to my job wet or with a cold or injured.

The ''adventure years" with motorcycles are over for me, now i am thinking my family-personal health-few years till pension.

 

Yesterday night after starting the car waited 15 second and started driving, uphill for 3 floor below earth, exit the garage, one block, turn, few meters, traffic light and then the idle was ready to drop to 800 rpm.

My Felicia has a caprice, does not like the 2nd cold start of the day and on the other hand i don't want to wait 3:45 to get warmed-up.

 

 

1 hour ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

My Felicia has a caprice, does not like the 2nd cold start of the day and on the other hand i don't want to wait 3:45 to get warmed-up.

You don't need to, I think it is a good idea to have the engine running for 10 seconds or so before pulling away to check all the dials and for warning lights, to listen and perhaps smell and taste for anything unusual, to briefly check things are as they should be before pulling away.

 

But you do not need to wait for the idle to fully drop, my wife's 2015 Fabia Mk3 might sometimes take two, three(?), four(?) minutes to settle to normal idle, I am not sure how long as I have not waited more that about one to two minutes before pulling away.  I have no idea why it sometimes keeps the idle high and the next day not, I expect it is all of VW's over-complicated and over-intrusive intertwined computer programs battling each other deciding what to do with and give priority to engine and electrics.

 

With my car I start the car with the choke cable pulled out as required then move it in a bit to a steady fast idle whilst I check the dials and listen for today's new noise then I drive off, the choke is still out so the idle would still be fast, I am the ECU deciding on the idle speed and perhaps fuel air mixture with the choke cable and accelerator pedal.

 

The Driver's Handbook for my car, and the models before it have not to let the engine warm by a slow idle but to warm the engine at a fast idle, 1,000rpm in this case though mine needs to be higher, and that less damage is done by driving the car straight on to the road.

 

Below is from a 1955 (MGA) Driver's Handbook, your electronics are doing the job of the MG driver's head and hand.

 

    

Edited 12 February, 20224 yr by nta16
spelling

5 hours ago, nta16 said:

my wife's 2015 Fabia Mk3 might sometimes take two, three(?), four(?) minutes to settle to normal idle, I am not sure how long as I have not waited more that about one to two minutes before pulling away. 

I have no idea why it sometimes keeps the idle high and the next day not,

 

What? And you telling me this NOW?

 

 

You should told me from the begging of the topic!

 

 

Few hour ago i returned from a ''dirty" task, i used spray to clean the throttle and another spray for the air intake manifold.

I had a problem after but some good results later after a road test on mountain road, stay tuned my fellow Felicians!

 

 

On 12/02/2022 at 17:11, D.FYLAKTOS said:

What? And you telling me this NOW?

Your car is does not has as many computers, programs, wires and connectors and start/stop over-complicated, over-intrusive, intertwined system like the 2015 Fabia - and I have never timed it, it might be 1 minute and 59 seconds or two minutes and 1 second, or shorter or longer, I just wait until it doesn't sound as rough as just after starting and the revs have dropped from wherever they were to over a thousand and drive off.  I rarely start the car in the morning or drive it, my wife would just drive off seconds or fractions of a second after it starts.

 

 

On 12/02/2022 at 17:11, D.FYLAKTOS said:

I can not focus are these chaps carrying 'on strike' placards.

 

 

On 12/02/2022 at 17:11, D.FYLAKTOS said:

stay tuned my fellow Felicians!

I am tuned.

 

Edited 16 February, 20224 yr by nta16
spelling

17 hours ago, nta16 said:

I can not focus are these chaps carrying 'on strike' placards.

 

Yes, they are protesting. 😜

 

Yesterday i went to a somehow quiet place on a small mountain, first i cleaned the throttle with Air Intake-Throttle cleaner spray, i used a clean rag and a paintbrush with synthetic tough bristles for the sides of the plate, turn the car on spray some more while revving by hand and white smoke came from the exhaust as i expected.

In purpose i used another spray a MAF sensor cleaner because i thought would be less strong than the other and i didn't want to ''hurt'' the MAP and i sprayed a lot inside the air intake plus from the side (vacuum hose) and let it soak for 20 minutes.

I knew that the car wouldn't start easily and yes at 5 attempts didn't start but i didn't push things more because i was afraid for the starter.Another 5 attempts and my Trusty started, no check engine light and after few seconds of very low idle things came back to normal.

 

I choose especially a route which has 2 uphills, 2 small straight lines and 2 small downhills because i wanted to push the car to burn any remains, after the 1st cycle and when the temperature rise i start driving sport style with 2nd gear even at 5500 rpm (beginning of red line) and 3rd at 5000.

I done this cycle 4 times plus i made a detour and i found another uphill but 2 times a silly driver blocked me and i couldn't accelerate as i wanted so i made an U turn and use the downhill (oh, i wish i had rear disk brakes) and then i drove 1km with light city traffic to home. Meanwhile i was glancing the TC-6 and all of that time that i was pushing the engine the fuel consumption was DROPPING! Yes, for first time since November when i made a trip the TC-6 was showing less fuel consumption, when i parked the car said 10,8 ltr fuel consumption.

 

 

I was a shocking moment for me, the car was accelerating better than before, the needle was moving quicker to the higher rpm and after all these i had LESS fuel consumption.

 

 

2 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

I was a shocking moment for me, the car was accelerating better than before, the needle was moving quicker to the higher rpm and after all these i had LESS fuel consumption.

Great stuff :woohoo:  - this is what good cleaning and good tuning should achieve, that is, better performance which will include better (comparative) fuel consumption.

 

Owners and poorer quality mechanics often get carried away with looking for higher level and more sophisticated solutions so they can play with more sophisticated tools and feel more sexy about the work and themselves.  Where as a good mechanic will always start with the basics as he knows you can not reliably move on until the basics are at least checked.

 

Much of servicing, maintenance and often repairs boil down to clean and lubricate, even using scan tools to find and eventually erase error codes is cleaning.

 

On another thread a chap had just bought a Fabia 1 that had not been looked after and IIRC was even considering getting another second-hand engine (I get threads confused), he just done a basic service on the engine and was delighted by the results - of course the engine is of low importance for servicing on a vehicle new to you - brakes, steering, suspension (all three include tyres), electrical safety items and visibility are higher priority.

 

2 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

In purpose i used another spray a MAF sensor cleaner because i thought would be less strong than the other and i didn't want to ''hurt'' the MAP

Do not worry about it as it depends on the brand and type used but to me the MAF cleaner spray I have used is stronger by the smell it gives off, I would have used electrical contact cleaner directly on the sensor if removed or more throttle body air intake cleaner if generally spraying the area.

 

I get the urine extracted from me on the Fabia threads for suggesting many things including MAF and throttle body cleaning on older cars as apparently this does not need doing often, what is forgotten is that on most old cars it might be a very long time ago that it was done and possibly never done before, same as power steering, gearbox (clutch, rear axle) fluids.

 

I assumed with all your care of your car and concentration in fuel consumption that you have cleaned all the items before.

 

Edited 13 February, 20224 yr by nta16
spelling

A couple of things I forgot I was going to put before.

 

Are you sure the Denso plugs were not counterfeit and Denso warn (as others would) -

"DENSO will not bear any responsibility whatsoever for any trouble arising from mechanically or electronically modified engines or vehicles.  It is the user's judgement and responsibility to check the specifications required for modified engines, which includes and not limited to, gapping, heat ranges, reach, projection, and/or clearances with valves and/or pistons."

 

Also with the comparison to my wife's 2015 Fabia Mk3's intermittent cold start high idle, when my neighbour used his higher/deeper level scanner there were 638 data points for the engine alone which shows how many sensors and points of reading there are for the engine alone without the hundreds more on the rest of the car some of which will react with and interfere with the engine.

 

Your 2001 car will have a tiny fraction of the data points and computer programs interactions on the engine let alone the whole car compared with the 2015 car.  I think if you heard the all different sounds from the front seats that her car makes and they vary on different start ups and different journeys you would be worried all the time.  I just let the computer programs battle each other as long as the car seems to be going OK.  And I totally ignore any mpg figures the car's computers give, just do an occasional petrol station pump delivery figure by miles since previous fill up, but then only as a rough overall guide as the driving conditions would have varied so much between fillups.

 

  

1 hour ago, nta16 said:

I assumed with all your care of your car and concentration in fuel consumption that you have cleaned all the items before.

 

Are you sure the Denso plugs were not counterfeit and Denso warn (as others would)

 

 

The only sensor that i have touch only once all these years was the Crankshaft sensor.Yesterday i have unplug it for inspection and look what i have found, check the new topic.

 

 

Back i 2003 i didn't had internet and all the infos were coming from tuning magazines like this and this one .

I went to a spare parts store, i gave my car's details and after searching his catalog (like a book) said a code and went to the shelf and brought me a set, i didn't had any way to check how accurate was his choice, maybe he gave me a wrong reference.

Articles like this didn't exist that time but years later when the internet expanded here and many e-shops created rumours start to spread about counterfeit spark plugs, fake engine oils etc so we start to double check any purchase or avoid the ''huge discount" or ''very low price" etc stores.

Unfortunately the first 3-4 years i didn't kept very detailed service notes (as i started after 2004) and i didn't wrote the code of these damned Denso so i can not check now if that employee did some sneaky.

 

I ordered a NGK iridium from a well know store (family business), the price was the same as other stores and when the come i will measure the gap with feeler blades to be sure.

I have to admit that i ''pushed a lot" the engine starter yesterday but i had no choice, you should see my face when i saw the fuel consumption dropping, i was keep telling to myself ''how can this be happening?"

I do not know but I do not think the rust below the sensor is a problem unless it is only in that one spot for some reason.

 

The various suppliers books could be very useful, but like any publication, paper or virtual, there could be errors or omissions then the chap in the shop could have made a genuine or lazy mistake.  Sounds a bit drastic to cause a engine shut down but who knows how a VW thinks.

 

Before fake it was just counterfeit, there were rumours of counterfeit parts from Merc Dealerships, that should not happen but then the UK motor trade does not have high moral standards at the best of times.

 

If you see videos of mechanics trying to start a reluctant vehicle or one that has not been started for a while, or years or decades you were probably nowhere near as harsh.  This is one of the very reasons I like a good battery in god condition, connections and state of charge otherwise you can resolve the starting issue but not be able to start because the battery is now too low.  Having had a few old British cars the one thing that really annoys me is if I could not get them started, especially to get home.  If they start you can usually drive the car if if it is not running well and I personally care more about me than any car.

 

I have only once flattened a battery because I could not get it started (because of a very stupid and arrogant mistake I made) but this was at home anyway so a recharge overnight and I could start the car the next day.

 

I hope those iridium plugs run well for your car as if they do they should last a long time (subject to car and driving conditions).  I do not know but guess they would show up any shortfalls in the rest of the engine running perhaps sooner than copper plugs so act as a warning or reminder of the shortfalls elsewhere (like bad coil connection(s)).

 

The set of NGK IRIDIUM BKR5EIX-11 is in my hand, i check them one by one (not counterfeit), i measured the gap and it's 1,1mm so i feel reassured about these factors.

In few days i will install them and let's pray that they work fine and not as those damned Denso did.

There is a list of things to check they are not counterfeit on the NGK website, main one I remember is the four numbers on the metal hex IIRC.

 

Be interesting to see if these plugs make any noticeable difference or just quietly do their job.  You would want a year round use to see their full suitability to your particular car, but I am sure you will be monitoring this anyway.

 

 

Plus another one from Champion:

 

https://www.championiridiumplugs.com/heat-range-conversion-chart-2

 

Today i notice these Heat range crossreference chart and i am thinking:

I have Champion 89 (which in NGK was let's say 6,5) and now i bought the NGK BKR5 EIX11 which is (let's say) 1,5 scales Hotter, is it a significant difference?

On the other hand if i had bought the BKR6EIX-11 the difference would be so small that i doubt if i could notice any difference in performance.

 

I think you are over simplifying the numbering system(s) and what it relates to, you would have ask the manufacturers for a technical explanation, and I could well be wrong with what I think.  I also think you should not worry too much about it.

 

Champion RC89PYC

• R = Resistor
• C = 14mm x 5/8" - 3/4" Reach
• 89 = Heat Range 76-99 Industrial and Special applications (could this be what big customers like VW want on special deal?)
• Y = Standard Projected Core Nose
• C = Copper Plus design

Champion in their charts do not show how 76-99 relates to their other heat ranges so it would be even more difficult to relate to the NHK charts (and I would have thought it would be more 5.5 than 6.5 but that is just my guess).

 

https://assets.sparkplugs.com/lc/Champion_Numbering_System.jpg

 

I prefer the chart below as it comes from Champion and includes Denso.

 

 

NGK BKR6EIX-11

• BK = 14mm thread size - 16mm hex size
• 6 = Heat Range Number
• E = 19mm Thread Reach
• IX = Iridium
• 11 = Gap

The Champion plug you said was 0.8mm gap with platinum tip, IIRC the alternative Champion I looked at was 10 (1.0mm) gap, forget what tip material, and Denso IK16TT iridium tip is 1.0mm gap with heat ranging on that chart equivalent to NGK 5.

 

So you have different manufacturers with their own heat ranges, differently constructed plugs and different set gaps so they vary and how they work in your particular car would vary possibly to another 21 year old Felicia, putting aside your ECU programming so the only sure way to know how well any of them work in your car is to run with them  Generally a wider gap can give more bang for your buck so some systems can sometimes be set up to take advantage of this but you would have to check with your programmer.

 

Not with these spark plugs particularly to any great extent  but generally this is what happens when you start tuning the car each change may need adjustments to take full advantage but it is also often trial and error to find if there is improvement, or not, and how much it can be taken advantage of to retain overall reliable and consistent improvement.

 

To get full improvements from any part does also required that the other parts, components and systems are all in very good working condition those related and less related, having dragging brake shoes could wipe out any tiny or small improvement from different or better plugs.

 

Edited 15 February, 20224 yr by nta16
spelling

Attached another (different) NGK code sheet for you. - ETA: you already had that one have this instead.

 

 

NGK-part-number-key.pdf

Edited 15 February, 20224 yr by nta16

1 hour ago, nta16 said:

I prefer the chart below as it comes from Champion and includes Denso.

 

I have put that chart with link before because i thought was better (no time to reduse the size on the smartphone).

 

3 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

Plus another one from Champion:

 

https://www.championiridiumplugs.com/heat-range-conversion-chart-2

 

If things are far better in city traffic i will keep them, as for their high rpm attitude i don't dare to say anything, the test will begin very slow monitoring the fuel consumption-coolant temperature-acceleration feeling etc because i am afraid.

If i had bought the BKR6 i would feel more assured but maybe the performance was the same with Champion so for what all the trouble?

I am in agony....

 

Well you cleaned and regapped the plugs you have fitted now so when you take them out you can keep them in the car along with a socket changer and if you find any issue with the BKR6EIX-11 then you can swap back to the plug other plugs knowing at least that they fit and work.

 

Whilst monitoring you also need to take into consideration any other factors that might affect the fuel consumption, coolant temperature, etc. either completely separately or in conjunction with the change of plugs.

 

I change them today, first words of the mechanic "oh, these are good, now it revs better".

Small test from me (house to work): Yes indeed especially when the traffic light goes green and i start plus the sound of the engine at low-medioum rpm (not enough road for high rpm moving).

I kept the previous Champion, look good and i will post a photo ot them tomorrow.

1 hour ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

now it revs better".

Just thought - could that be, partly or wholly, because of your previous cleaning of the air intake and throttle body, or is it partly or fully the plugs.  Possibly a bit of both.  Even if you had just put new plugs of the same sort (Champion RC89PYC) that might have given an improvement even though the plugs were only used for 10,000kms if they were almost all arduous short journeys of city use that could be more wearing.

 

I am moderately optimistic but i have not forgotten what happened with those Denso iridium many years back. I need at least a month with the new NGK ''on'' to feel reassured.

My car is a little bit upgrated, those Champion were old technology and the city traffic was ''choking'' them.

 

What worried me was that the engineer asked me if i had changed the Ignition Coil, i said no this is the factory and he told me sooner or later i will have an issue with one of the cylinders because of him.

He said it's statistically sure that at least one (at the base of that plastic tube which here we call it ''Spark plug pipe'') will have a problem and the car will start tremble.

 

 

Skoda 047905104

 

Yes mine it's 21 years on duty for about 84.800 km of use but is this true?

 

 

4 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

I need at least a month with the new NGK ''on'' to feel reassured.

Yes but you might need a year of use through different conditions and seasons to see how they are overall.  Depending on the suitability to your particular car I expect them to be good and possibly better than the Champion by perhaps a (very?) small bit but I am not sure they will cure your cold start idle time but every small improvement adds up overall.

 

 

4 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

Skoda 047905104

That is what we call a 'coil pack' and plastic does not last for ever but generally I believe they were made better 21 years ago than today's modern made replacements so just look after your original and do not treat it rough, keep it clean and protected and it could last trouble-free a while longer yet.  84,800 km is only 52,700 miles which is very low for 21 years of use but it also depends on the type of use and conditions.  If the coil pack starts to play up generally it is noticeable and should be picked up with old school diagnostics, mechanic's brain and/or old diagnostic tools or perhaps if interpreted correctly modern scanners and programmers' laptops.

 

A mate has a 25 year old play car with 58,000 miles on it and the coil pack is fine.  I did manage to persuade him a few months back to change his 25 year old HT lead set which he did and he said he thought it was worthwhile.

 

Always twist and pull, or peel pull, the HT leads by the boots to take an HT lead end off.

 

Personally I do not like cheap HT leads (sets) but neither do I buy the (over) expensive ones just good quality at reasonable price, not just the quality of the cable but also the terminals and boots.

 

This is what I know as a coil, used to last a good few last decades.-

Edited 16 February, 20224 yr by nta16