Here is a photo of my average fuel consumption after a 444 kilometres trip few months back, now things are much better because i have made a correction to my coolant plus an additive and i hope due to the Easter vacations i will manage to do another trip to see the difference.

 

 

In city traffic things are much better than before, i almost finished another test and i will post some photos.

I forgot to say that the 444 kilometres were ''mixed" which means 5% was City traffic and the rest was half national road (80-120 Km per hour speed) and mountain route with curbs (many times 2nth and 3rd gear till 5000-5500 rpm).

Deep inside me i am optimist that in the new trip the things would be much better, i dare to say much better than ever.

The instant fuel consumption can play many tricks especially if the road is slightly downhill and you can maintain the same speed with less petal pressing or for few seconds with not press it at all, i have some photos to prove it so i pay attention now to the Total consumption (with the Greek letter Σ on the TC-6 menu) when it's time for a trip.

Once again i would like to thank you for your help. ☺️

@D.FYLAKTOS You also forgot to say what the ambient temperature was.

I think because you are dealing with a smaller number like 6.8 (l/100km) that you might might notice the difference more than here in the UK.

 

Going from 6.8 to 6.9 stands out more than the UK equivalent of 41.54 (mpg) to 40.94, we would just see both as 41 or "over 40 mpg" and not count the difference.

 

Doing 276 miles of the type of driving you put I would never expect 41mpg but if challenged to do a fuel economy run only over the trip I would probably do very well until going up the mountain roads which I love to attack but I am not keen on the decent.

 

roottoot will understand this more, a few years back I travelled for 100 miles (160 km) at 50 mph (80 km) on the M6 motorway during the day* to do a fuel economy check on the car I have now (roof down) and check carbs and tuning settings, confirmed as previously at 50 mpg (5.65).  My wife begged me to give it up and go faster as we still had a good few miles to go but I stuck with, and we overtook 10 or 11 vehicles.  Later friends in a Toyota Supra and Honda S2000 joined us on the M6 and we followed the S2000 (roofs off/down) and at Teabay petrol station refill stop I worked out 25 mpg (11.3) following the Honda.

 

ETA: * the ambient temperate IIRC was about 70+C 70+F, a nice sunny dry day at end of April or start of May.

 

Edited 19 February, 20224 yr by nta16

OK.

About 13*oC higher than in Death Valley USA.    Maybe we lost something in translation. 

12 hours ago, roottoot said:

@D.FYLAKTOS You also forgot to say what the ambient temperature was.

 

Autumn, sun without air and around 10-13 'C

Keep in mind was with previous too thick coolant which means for every cold start i was spending more fuel as it must.

The trip was from Athens to my island, few visits in a city close by and return to Athens.

City traffic in Athens, national road, mountain road, country roads inside a city, mountain road, national road, traffic back in Athens.

If seriously doubt the coolant was causing more fuel use in the city.  But really you would need to say how many km you drive after a cold start.   Was it 10 km before the engines coolant and oil was at an efficient operating temp or 20 km?        This is like Groundhog Day.       Good if all is finally sorted. 

13 hours ago, roottoot said:

OK.

About 13*oC higher than in Death Valley USA.    Maybe we lost something in translation. 

Uhm, definitely a bit of brain fog yesterday, I wonder if I have got Covid coming on - for the last few decades!

 

Lost in (non) conversion rather than translation.

 

ETA: BTW I meant my day on the M6 and not D.FYLAKTOS trip, I've edited in an asterisk to that post.

 

Being taught as a youngster in feet and inches then meters and decimeters (never see them around now) then the next year back to the imperialist system learning about things like chains and furlongs as little Britain rails against the Europeans, truly Groundhog Day.

 

I was thinking 21+°C but typed as 70(+°F).

 

I doubted the coolant would make a difference but when the antifreeze ratio was given and that the coolant was a cocktail perhaps the coolant did have some effect, unless anyone fancies mixing up that cocktail and trying it again I think it might be a possibility unless any other changes took place at the same time.

 

Edited 30 January, 20224 yr by nta16
ETA:

2 hours ago, roottoot said:

But really you would need to say how many km you drive after a cold start. 

 

I made the first cold start at Athens, drove for 5 Km till i reach the national road, i made a stop after 80 Km for coffee and rest, then a ''cold" start for another 7Οkm of mountain road till i reach my destination.

The next day a cold start and 15 Km to a city near buy and return, another day the same but for other city.

Final day a cold start from my village, 70 Km mountain road, a stop for coffee and rest and another ''cold" start for 80 Km on national road till i reach the boundaries of the municipality of Athens and 5 Km till home.

The return was with light rain, i have some photos from TC-6 in Instant fuel consumption in national road from both days.

 

2 hours ago, roottoot said:

If seriously doubt the coolant was causing more fuel use in the city

 

Yes it did, based on TC-6, the behaviour of the car at first Km, the rise of the temperature, the smell of the fumes.

No all these are gone.

Fantastic if the only difference before and after is the change of coolant. 

D.FYLAKTOS, I am with the possibility of the coolant mixture ratio you had perhaps causing an issue but just to be clear the ECU work you had done was this before, after or at the same time of changing the coolant mixture ratio by the water delusion and what where the readings during all of this?

 

Also was the TC-6 changed / altered / recalibrated during the time of ECU work and/or coolant delusion?

 

3 hours ago, roottoot said:

Fantastic if the only difference before and after is the change of coolant. 

 

The previous coolant was the worst i have ever put in my car.

As i have said in older posts the next day that i have started to ''dilute" it the TC-6 started to shown less Instant fuel consumption at cold start in the morning.

 

3 hours ago, nta16 said:

the ECU work you had done was this before, after or at the same time of changing the coolant mixture ratio by the water delusion and what where the readings during all of this?

 

Also was the TC-6 changed / altered / recalibrated during the time of ECU work and/or coolant delusion?

 

The ECU-update was done 2 months after this trip.

I have made a reset after the ''dilution'' process finished so since everything was fine the TC-6 started to shown results that brought the smile back to my face.

 

I wrote at 13nth of January:

 

Quote

had 46 kilometres with the old Ecu-chip and the old coolant (with non proper antifreeze mixture), i have made some changes and i run another 60 kilometres.

Meantime i was looking everyday the TC-6 and i was happy seeing some progress, yesterday i made a refuelling although the sneaky employee tried to put more after the click of the pump.

My Felicia had an average fuel consumption at city traffic of 9,5 lt/ 100 Km which is not only good news but leaving me optimistic for better results because now everything is as should be (i have the proper coolant, Ecu-chip updates, Amsoil additive, TC-6 better adjustment plus a recently Ecu reset) so i am in agony for the next refuelling.

 

 

This is a photo few minutes ago, yes i know it's a crappy but i was in a hurry.

Fuel consumption 9,3 lt for 100,7 Km in the odometer.

 

 

\

Note:  The above fuel consumption was in City traffic (mainly 1st-2nd gear and only for few seconds the 3rd) including the recently snow days with low temperatures.

 

The "new" coolant plus the Amsoil additive helped me the most plus the ECU-chip update, the cold starts now have nothing to do with the previous ones.

Many times other people criticise me for keeping detailed service notes but deep inside me i know that i am right.

Those notes helped me to understand the nature of the problem and surprisingly no mechanic tested the coolant, everyone was watching the blue colour on the expanding reservoir and they were saying

''Hey, you are Ok, you have enough fluid" but no one spend 1 minute make a simple test.

 

 

Another photo from that trip, it was very difficult to take good snapshots of fuel consumption with the right hand but you can see the needle which barely touches the 100 Km.

The road was straight, even on slightly downhills the result can change dramatically but there is no meaning from me for such photos.

37 minutes ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

surprisingly no mechanic tested the coolant

To be fair it would not be something to normally consider but a quick, easy test on the coolant would have at least highlighted the coolant was over strength.

 

Keeping records is fair enough as long as it does not distract you from your driving - as taking photos would, you would be in trouble for doing that over here.

 

Well done on sorting it all though.

 

 

This is much better than the previous (disgrace) one.

 

@nta16 : Many times told me ''it's the coolant sensor fault" (although the scanner tool didn't show anything) but no one thought to measure the coolant strength.

If someone have done it and said ''hey it's too thick, this is for Siberia" would save me from many troubles. The most annoying thing here is from some repair-shop owners which saying ''Oh, your car is Chipped? Go, put the original and bring it back to check it" which in their mind is this task so easy as like ''take this aftermarket gasoline cap out and put the original".

Sounds like laziness on the part of the mechanics and just trying fitting parts at your expense.  Also as your car is 'chipped' it might be they do not want to deal with it in which case they should be honest and say so.

 

You must realise a lot of chipped cars are done badly and to cars that have not been sorted to a good running order before being chipped but again the mechanic should be honest and say they do not want to work on the car, there are two people to every repair.

 

With all the technology nowadays often basics can be overlooked particularly by the lazy mechanics, somebody who really knows what they are doing will always start at the very basics despite what they are told others have done or found but the basics are not flashy or high level or sexy or always involve impressive manly tools so do not appeal to all egos.

 

It may be if the garages have a good scan tool that it may not go back as far as your car although the programs can be bought they may not be worth the costs if they see so few of your model and year plus the information from them might be limited and better assessed using other types of diagnostics.  The cheaper scan tools seem to be little more than basic readers on the more modern cars.

 

I think unless by accident discovering the coolant strength would not have been early given the symptoms but should have been checked and found at some point, taking the cap off I would have thought the look and even perhaps smell might have warranted investigation.

 

But it is now all in the past and sorted.

 

5 hours ago, nta16 said:

It may be if the garages have a good scan tool that it may not go back as far as your car although the programs can be bought they may not be worth the costs if they see so few of your model and year plus the information from them might be limited and better assessed using other types of diagnostics

 

I was very disappointed when the 3 scanning tools found nothing. Unfortunately i haven't a friend with some kind of programme to watch the live data from the cold start till the car get warm to check for anything ''suspicious''.

To be honest i was expecting from the ''Ecu-chipper'' to find it first, if i was not keeping detailed service notes and had not thinking for many nights the problem will existed till now, maybe not so obvious but there would be.

For sure he made a cold start, why he didn't spotted to his laptop that the fuel consumption those crucial first minutes was higher than normal?

Bi-directional scanners are the ones to have as you can test things without taking things apart or getting your hands dirty, always a big plus to me, and that means two ends leaving the middle to check.

 

My neighbour has one that he's transferred to an old laptop which is very useful as his eyesight is even worse than mine and the larger screen is much better than the actual unit size and so much better than a phone screen size, even the larger phone.

 

As with most things, the scan tools are much lower priced in the USA than UK, and I guess Europe, my neighbour got his at a lower price as it was a model that was superseded but it was still many hundreds of pounds because of the professional features on it, but the (European) software only goes back to 2004.

 

Your chipper possibly did notice the fuel consumption but again I doubt that would have left him to concluded the coolant, it must be an unusual occurrence.   I do know many years ago a friend of my wife's was they need to antifreeze as there was only water in the system and the water was drained but misunderstanding 100% added.

 

I was helping a friend with a girl friend's car that showed signs of a previous problem because there were still dried residue spots of rusty water but the clear plastic reservoir showed very clean coolant to level.  Looking in the radiator it was half empty, turned out the hose from the reservoir was blocked solid with rust bits thrown up previously but just lifting the bonnet and looking it appeared the coolant was so clear and at level.

 

Greek mechanics and the felly don't go well together they even think it has hydraulic tappets. 

12 hours ago, Thefeliciahacker said:

Greek mechanics and the felly don't go well together

 

I envy those guys which have OBD2 port, connect a laptop and the co-driver can read almost anything on live data as the car rolling.

I don't know if this can be done in a Felicia with old OBD port and i think devices like ScanGaugeII work with OBD2 only.

 

As for the record: I asked from another programmer to check my car for the cold start high fuel consumption, he suggest me to buy a Wideband Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) gauge with his own Sensor, then drill the exhaust screw the new sensor and then to take the car to him to take measures, i said ''so i will have 2 Lambda sensors?" ,he said yes till he see if the exhaust fumes are OK and then maybe make the car work with the new Lambda and abolish the factory one.

I told him that is an expensive job with a huge risk, if that won't work so what's the whole mess for? I haven't a supercar do add such an equipment and if the combination won't work then what's the reason to have such a gauge to my dashboard? This isn't a ''Need for Speed" car so i rejected the whole idea and fortunately i was right.

You can get a leads or adapters for OBD and other systems, it is surprising how many different system there were/are, as always each group of manufacturers doing their own thing.  The problem would be getting the various parts to work with each other if they are not part of the same kit.

 

With the better scan tools you can either do live data and have a second person watch or you can record the live data as the driver to playback and interrogate later.

 

With older cars the programs particularly need to be kept up to date as it is the users' feedback that improves the scan tool's programs as my guess would the car manufacturer's were not allowing the programs to slip into the hands of the Chinese, the top systems seem to be from China with very similar looking hardware with the user programming differentiating the different brand makes.

 

With modern cars particularly but it was also with older cars, some lazy mechanics only want to play with toys and overcomplicate matters to make them look clever or so they can charge more, it's like plugging in a load of diagnostics to tell some one their battery is flat or dead or that they have allowed the fuel tank to fully empty.  You have your TC-6 will all the programs to sensors in the old days it would have just been a vacuum gauge to tell you the engine's health and have you driving efficiently and economically.

 

You want to think yourself luck that you have an earlier VW Skoda before VW decided to really over complicate the computer programs and make them invasive to each other and the operation of the vehicles probably partly just for the sake of of running away with the technology but as has been proven to also be able to control and fiddle things.

 

I would guess that the programs were being developed for ever strict fuel economy and emission with ever diminishing return on the very ancient technology that is the internal combustion engine but also for safety regulations and marketing but also with an eye to self-driving cars to test out systems in real world situations.  This has meant German cars in particular having the vehicle systems so interdependent that there are so many variations to any problems that arise that they even beat the manufacturers agents.

 

Edited 6 February, 20224 yr by nta16
spelling

7 hours ago, nta16 said:

in the old days it would have just been a vacuum gauge to tell you the engine's health and have you driving efficiently and economically.

 

 would guess that the programs were being developed for ever strict fuel economy and emission

 

For few years i had one on the driver column and some believed was for my turbo 

but one day cause me major problem with the brake pedal returning from a trip and guess what? the mechanic told me that the Vacuum servo has a problem and must be prepared for huge expenses but i had my doubts, i removed the gauge and the pipe which fed it from the fuel pressure regulator, i sealed the exit and yes, the problem vanished at once!

 

The ECU-chip programmers advertise themselves that will ''liberate'' the car from such restrictions but many times they overdo it.

Doesn't matter now but your vacuum gauge installation didn't sound right, and usually just making good non-leaking seal to all connections.  The mechanic was trying it on by the sound of it, at worse you just remove the gauge piping and blank off or seal off or renew hose.

 

Seems there are rip-off mechanics everywhere.

 

 

3 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

The ECU-chip programmers advertise themselves that will ''liberate'' the car from such restrictions but many times they overdo it.

I totally agree and owners forget the margins might be shaved thin which might be ok until you need the wider margins from something going wrong, or from wear or faults or very adverse conditions.

 

19 hours ago, nta16 said:

Seems there are rip-off mechanics everywhere.

 

''easy solution'' is the key word for those mechanics, the same phenomenon is with those which repair refrigerator ''let's change the board, the motor'' etc without to search for the cause.

The most funny excuse was ''it's a old car, the engine has lot of tolerance that's why you have such a high fuel consumption in the morning'', the real reason was he didn't want to dedicate some time, he prefers better the ''buy new plug and play item-install it-pay me'' system.

 

4 hours ago, D.FYLAKTOS said:

''buy new plug and play item-install it-pay me'' system.

Yeap, you can only blame their parents/guardians, grand parents, trade training and general greed and laziness.  There are many good people in the world and some are mechanics, many often, as in all walks of life, until they are corrupted.

 

Edited 2 February, 20224 yr by nta16