EDIT. 

What surprises me is that Niro PHEV,s & Hybrids now have an 8 speed automatic / dual clutch gearbox and no longer a 6 speed, or is that an error from the What Car Journal.

 

@Graham ButcherMaybe surprised you,  good simple stuff as a comparison.

but not a surprise to EV drivers who if paying out their own pocket will not use Instavolt.   

I have used Instavolt about 6 times in over 60,000 miles. Emergency only. Too expensive.

So no the cost is not the same.

 

Also ecause yes they are saying the 30 pence a kWh home charging tariff, not a off-peak tariff.   

Truth, not all have home charging available  so might not be even getting the 11 kWh PHEV charge at 30 pence a kwh, or the BEV charged at 30 pence. 

 

Don't get an EV if you  want to for economy if you are going to be rocking up to Rapid or Ultra Rapid chargers and paying over 50 pence a kWh & as much as 79 pence or even higher from your money.

Even 45 pence a kWh can be too much compared to an efficient ICE vehicle.

 

100 kWh @ 45 pence a kWh is £45 & if you get 3.5 miles per kWh that is 350 miles.

 

50 mpg = 7 gallons. / 32 litre @ 150 pence a litre, = £48.00

 

 

Edited 9 September, 20232 yr by toot

Not everyone can charge at home, others can or so they thought but the authorities didn't agree and needed a bigger supply.

Edited 9 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

41 minutes ago, toot said:

EDIT. 

What surprises me is that Niro PHEV,s & Hybrids now have an 8 speed automatic / dual clutch gearbox and no longer a 6 speed, or is that an error from the What Car Journal.

Kia website says 6 speed.

Edited 9 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

Because they are 6 speed.

 

& see my edit on the EV cost.

 

He says 34.5 kWh home charge, but has set off with a full battery which is 64 kWh.  AS SAID IN THE VIDEO, "Completely topped up. Full tanks, full batteries".

 34.5 kWh would have been just about 110 miles before he needed a charge, maybe sooner.

  These guys can not do basic man maths let alone EV man maths.

 

Doh!

86 kWh for 278 miles. 3.2 miles per kWh

64 kWh @ 30 pence £19.20

22 kWh @ 75 pence £16.50    = £35.70.       

 

Then it happens that the electricity left in the car cost 75 pence a kWh.

&  When he did the town run he only got 2.88 mile a kWh. 

*It was £7.88 if it was the following day because he had paid 75 pence a kWh on the previous trip.*

 

 

 

 

Edited 9 September, 20232 yr by toot

5 hours ago, toot said:

Because they are 6 speed.

 

& see my edit on the EV cost.

 

He says 34.5 kWh home charge, but has set off with a full battery which is 64 kWh.  AS SAID IN THE VIDEO, "Completely topped up. Full tanks, full batteries".

 34.5 kWh would have been just about 110 miles before he needed a charge, maybe sooner.

  These guys can not do basic man maths let alone EV man maths.

 

Doh!

86 kWh for 278 miles. 3.2 miles per kWh

64 kWh @ 30 pence £19.20

22 kWh @ 75 pence £16.50    = £35.70.       

 

Then it happens that the electricity left in the car cost 75 pence a kWh.

&  When he did the town run he only got 2.88 mile a kWh. 

*It was £7.88 if it was the following day because he had paid 75 pence a kWh on the previous trip.*

 

 

 

 

That was a bad mistake on their part then, I'll have to check the comments, maybe someone else pointed it out to them, ☑️

17 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

 

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/factors-safety-fos-d_1624.html

Typical overall Factors of Safety

Typical overall Factors of Safety:

Equipment	Factor of Safety - FOS -
Aircraft components	1.5 - 2.5
Boilers	3.5 - 6
Bolts	8.5
Cast-iron wheels	20
Engine components	6 - 8
Heavy duty shafting	10 - 12
Lifting equipment - hooks ..	8 - 9
Pressure vessels	3.5 - 6
Turbine components - static	6 - 8
Turbine components - rotating	2 - 3
Spring, large heavy-duty	4.5
Structural steel work in buildings	4 - 6
Structural steel work in bridges	5 - 7
Wire ropes	8 - 9

The aircraft one is a bit worrying. 

@Graham Butcher that would likely be me that pointed it out in the comments.     No point pointing out about driving in ECO.   I have driven the 3 Niro on the different flavours.  Did at least 500 miles in demos.    No point on the motorway with cars with 200 ps sitting in ECO.   Get a move on and on downslopes you are coasting.   Especially with the EV.  As so 21*oC on the heating.  I would be cooked.  Even in the coldest winter days 19 degrees is the max setting I ever have.  In an EV you will see the difference of heating even in cars with hear pumps.   The 3.2 mile kWh is pathetic as is the 2.88 miles a kWh in town from a Niro.  But then that is how some might roll.   Car reviewers and not that clued up.  Never checking tyre pressures etc. 

 

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

☑️

The aircraft one is a bit worrying. 

 

 

Probably not that worrying as it'll probably be a factor of safety applied to a worst case loading scenario where the loadings are well above typical ones.  Eg in the UK for a building roof you'd design for heavy vertical snow loading but also do separate calcs for wind loading with side walls open or closed to give variations on roof load and uplift etc.  All of these loading change depending upon location in the UK to reflect varying weather etc. but are intended to simulate worst case scenarios that you then design the structure for with factors applied to each element on top.  I'd imagine aircraft design is similar (to be honest I can't remember exactly from my time working at a company that made aircraft propellors, fuel systems and landing gear).

38 minutes ago, toot said:

@Graham Butcher that would likely be me that pointed it out in the comments.     No point pointing out about driving in ECO.   I have driven the 3 Niro on the different flavours.  Did at least 500 miles in demos.    No point on the motorway with cars with 200 ps sitting in ECO.   Get a move on and on downslopes you are coasting.   Especially with the EV.  As so 21*oC on the heating.  I would be cooked.  Even in the coldest winter days 19 degrees is the max setting I ever have.  In an EV you will see the difference of heating even in cars with hear pumps.   The 3.2 mile kWh is pathetic as is the 2.88 miles a kWh in town from a Niro.  But then that is how some might roll.   Car reviewers and not that clued up.  Never checking tyre pressures etc. 

 

It has been reported, but the only person I could see who did was Derek Conway. If you have your AC on at 19C, that makes your consumption worse as you're drawing power to drive the AC. I normally have mine set at 21 or 22C to use it as little as possible. But as these mk3s are not built to the same standard as the mk2s, I find that when I get in the car is like a bloody sauna, so turn the AC down 16 or 17C to rapidly take the temperature down and then I gradually turn it up again as the car cools down. If I don't I find, like I'm cooked, as I get older I find I don't like heat so much, 21/22 is fine if your not doing anything, attempt to do anything at those temperatures and I become a walking puddle of sweat. 

 

I like you, coast down hill, even if it is a slight incline downwards, I always try and take advantage of it.

Edited 9 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

@Graham Butcher He went on about colder weather & the battery and charging.  

What is the point about talking AC and getting in a car and a 'Bloody sauna'.    

 

You say AC. 

 Well yes AC can be needed to stop cars steaming up, cars with passengers etc.

 

I am not using AC in my MINI, and did not in my Corsa, and will not in various cars ICE or EV if they have good Heating / Demisting systems. 

 

EV,s are very different from ICE vehicles & there are so many types different vehicles as to how they need set. 

 

Single drivers in cars doing round trips are totally different from put people and an animal or 2 in a car and set off in wet, cold weather.

30 or 40 mins, steaming up cars, and the next times iced up glass inside.

7 hours ago, toot said:

Because they are 6 speed.    & see my edit on the EV cost.

 

He says 34.5 kWh home charge, but has set off with a full battery which is 64 kWh.  AS SAID IN THE VIDEO, "Completely topped up. Full tanks, full batteries".

 34.5 kWh would have been just about 110 miles before he needed a charge, maybe sooner.    These guys can not do basic man maths let alone EV man maths.

 

Doh!

86 kWh for 278 miles. 3.2 miles per kWh

64 kWh @ 30 pence £19.20

22 kWh @ 75 pence £16.50    = £35.70.       

 

Then it happens that the electricity left in the car cost 75 pence a kWh.  &  When he did the town run he only got 2.88 mile a kWh.   *It was £7.88 if it was the following day because he had paid 75 pence a kWh on the previous trip.*

 

 

Just so fundamentally flawed.  Most EV owners will be charging at home at below 10p per kWh and of course use the full battery to around 80% of it and just top up 10, 15 or 20 kWh in a 278 mile journey in any of the longer distance EVs and I include the Zoe in that as a small but longer distance EV, even if I was only getting 3 miles per kWh at UK national speed limits.

 

42 kwh of home charge used minimum and 42 kw of public charging, at worse cost £4 plus £30 at worst for public charging for a non TESLA but that is still high as most EV drivers who distance have some sort of deal with one or more of the charging network, Electroverse in my case ie 5% or more discount and do not even see the bill until month end.

 

If one has a TESLA and as DAVE TAKES IT ON is ift saying TESLA drivers are paying about half that non TESLA pays.  It will be great to see the rapid expansion over the up coming months as the V4 charge station can be used by non-TESLAs. 

 

As usual a very unreal comparison done the uninitiated may see and view as a proper set of data when it is actually very far from that. Also an 8 mile diversion to get a charge, a mile or so would be more normal Banbury, Braintree, Cambridge, Norwich, Oxford, Reading, Rugby and each hundreds of metres of the main road not 4 miles.  

   

This MOST EV drivers, is the issue.  MOST EV Drivers might not be charging at home, have a smart meter or wall box, and if they are charging at home might need to use a 3 pin charger.

Even if just for weeks or months because getting chargers can be a fiasco not explained at Car Dealerships.

 

It is good for the basics, and to give people the general idea.

 

But to stress the Full tanks and batteries, then show the 34.5 kWh @ 30 pence a kWh.

 

The 64 kWh was going to be OK for 205 miles, but you would want on to a charger by 190 miles at the latest if doing such poor efficiency.

So if you were to want not just 100 mile of a charge as in 31 kWh but 150 miles so 45 kWh it is going to cost you. 

 

As it is, not their money, paid to do it, not that far off being correct, but then if you do the same trip, week in week out, or a few times a week you will be doing it cheaper than that and not paying 75 pence a kWh at InstaVolt.

 

Maybe not driving in ECO either when you know how to drive efficiently.    3.2 miles a kWh might be expected with passengers and stuff in a Niro EV.

Edited 9 September, 20232 yr by toot

39 minutes ago, toot said:

@Graham Butcher He went on about colder weather & the battery and charging.  

What is the point about talking AC and getting in a car and a 'Bloody sauna'.    

 

You say AC. 

 Well yes AC can be needed to stop cars steaming up, cars with passengers etc.

 

I am not using AC in my MINI, and did not in my Corsa, and will not in various cars ICE or EV if they have good Heating / Demisting systems. 

 

EV,s are very different from ICE vehicles & there are so many types different vehicles as to how they need set. 

 

Single drivers in cars doing round trips are totally different from put people and an animal or 2 in a car and set off in wet, cold weather.

30 or 40 mins, steaming up cars, and the next times iced up glass inside.

 

Many us with EVs have heat pumps so using air con is not much of a hit on energy usage ie range.

15 hours ago, skomaz said:

 

Well he doesn't work in civil engineering, or designing UK car parks so we can safely ignore him...   I do. 

 

Factors of safety are made up of multiple elements - on loads / materials / design parameters and each does add up and multiply the others but none are individually in the region of 11 times.

 

Whilst I'm on it I've just looked at the new June 2023 IStructE design guide for car parks and that references average vehicle weights as 1500kg and maximum vehicle weights as 2,500kg

 

Interestingly the same edition of the above has finally recognised larger vehicle sizes and now recommends larger standard spaces, at 5m x 2.7m versus the previous 4.8m x 2.4m.

Better not get a car park full of automatic SUV or those daft oversized pickup trucks… who know what could happen, they might cause car parks to collapse 😂😂😋

 

Im glad the typical space size is increasing, although I’d still like a little more width due to above mentioned cars and an amazing inability to get near the centre of a bay.

14 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Many us with EVs have heat pumps so using air con is not much of a hit on energy usage ie range.

Tiny hit tbh for AC or heating probably in the region of 5% or 10% on a crazy cold/hot day way outside what you’ll find here. 
 

Speed/driving style would have a far bigger effect.

 

 

Talking of AC, car on an AC charger, set meeting end time plus 15 minutes, got into a car at 20 degrees with full range rather than hot hot hot. Much harder to do that in an ICE car and the EV can pre heat/cool from battery if really needed.

@lol-lolNot much from using AC, but it does depend how many degrees you are asking it to reduce the interior temp, is it bringing 26 *oC down to 16*oC 

or maybe not 10 degrees just 5 degrees.

 

But that is as it has been with many vehicles, ICE or EV.

 

The thing is if you have 200 miles range showing and put on AC & it then shows 194 miles, no big deal.

If you have a small battery and maybe not a EV only model car but something built from an ICE model the 5 miles or even 10 miles drop in range can happen.

As it is in warm weather no big deal.

 

If you need AC just to keep the windscreen clear then it is about poor design / engineering. 

 

@cheeZeygrinI have been sitting this week charging with windows open AC on as no breeze.

I sit charging heater on and windows a bit often in lots of weather including winter conditions.  But that is where wind deflectors are important when it is peeing down or snowing.

 

I am seriously going to miss Wind Deflectors & regret having a car that as the windows drop as the frameless door opens water pours in if it is raining.

Edited 9 September, 20232 yr by toot

Yeah, I think it is not really helpful when people bang on about most people charge at home because I have always said that is not the case. It really does depend on whether you own your house, where you live, do you have incoming power etc. I live in a HA house which means that before I could even think about getting a home charger, I would need to get permission to install one, then I would more than likely have to have the incoming power upgraded, and then I'd need to be able to actually park close enough to the charger in order to use it. So many times if I have been out for the day and get back later in the evening, someone is parked outside my house and my drive has been blocked off by others inconsiderate parking as I live in cul-de-sac and 2 or more of my neighbours have 5 or more vehicles and have an almost constant stream of visitors, some even stay overnight. The estate is one which is open plan and there are no garden fences or gates etc and front gardens are only about 1.5 metres wide from house wall to the footpath.

 

So in real terms I think when people are doing their calculations they really should consider these factors and assume that home charging is real luxury and understand that currently for many is not really practical so would better off allowing for public charging, just as you do with ICE cars, who has their own home storage facility and a pump to allow them to buy their fuel in bulk at discount prices, which effectively is what you are doing when charging at home, so once again, its not really a fair comparison. 

 

 

22 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Better not get a car park full of automatic SUV or those daft oversized pickup trucks… who know what could happen, they might cause car parks to collapse 😂😂😋

 

Im glad the typical space size is increasing, although I’d still like a little more width due to above mentioned cars and an amazing inability to get near the centre of a bay.

It annoys the hell out of me when I go to the supermarket and park my car usually a fair distance from the shop entrance as most park as close as possible, to come back with a trolley full of shopping to find some Ahole has parked right next to me and left me just enough room for a stick insect to in or out off. I'm quite a large unit and have had to often wait for the driver to come back before I can get in, all the time with my shopping sweating it out in the boot. So if it becomes a rule that supermarkets have to start providing wider spaces, I'd be happy with that.

Edited 9 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

As usual a very unreal comparison done the uninitiated may see and view as a proper set of data when it is actually very far from that. Also an 8 mile diversion to get a charge, a mile or so would be more normal Banbury, Braintree, Cambridge, Norwich, Oxford, Reading, Rugby and each hundreds of metres of the main road not 4 miles.  

   

I don't think that is fair criticism, what we don't know is, and he didn't say, but he may well have found chargers closer to the main route home, but they may have been all in use, some may have been out of order, or maybe for reason unable to get his card read correctly or is using a phone app, unable to get a signal, these are things can happen as there is still a massive imbalance between number of chargers to fuel pumps, bearing in mind that a fuel pump will top up many cars in the time it takes a single EV to get topped up.

28 minutes ago, toot said:

But that is where wind deflectors are important when it is peeing down or snowing.

 

I am seriously going to miss Wind Deflectors & regret having a car that as the windows drop as the frameless door opens water pours in if it is raining.

I have never really thought about wind deflectors, but as you mentioned them, it made me think of them and although my car does have a full sized door frame, I don't think it would be possible to fit them even as (I think most modern cars fall into this trap), windows do use guides any more like older cars, the glass just rests against a rubber door seal, relying on the portion of glass left in the bottom section of door for its positioning.

I have had them on Offroaders for years because of sitting about at events or just in poor weather and needing air in vehicles.

 

For an EV if you are sitting in while charging then you might have heating, AC, heated seats and your have no power issues, 

but windows open make a difference if needed,  Wind deflectors are perfect for that. 

 

 

Edited 9 September, 20232 yr by toot

1 hour ago, toot said:

@Graham Butcher He went on about colder weather & the battery and charging.  

What is the point about talking AC and getting in a car and a 'Bloody sauna'.    

 

That was me saying that sometimes, especially in this weather, getting into my car when it has been parked for a while, is just like going into a sauna, the heat inside the car is way hotter than the outside is so that is when I have to turn the air con onto a low setting with recirculation on to lower the temperature quickly to make it comfortable and as it gets more comfortable, I slowly increase the air con setting up to about 21C.

These days you need not even been near the car and for you or someone else you can turn on the AC or heating at whatever you left it set at.

(I have not had the use of a car that you can turn up or down the heat remotely, but there will be ones.)

 

You can open or close the sunroof or windows. 

 It is lovely stuff, only issue for me with Vauxhall & Peugeot was needing to go check if what you wanted to do had worked or if it was going to please its self what happened.

280 miles 

200 miles from home charging in depth of winter, let’s be pessimistic and say 3p/mile. £6 
Again, be pessimistic and add 100 miles, 25kwh at supercharger, typical price at 35p/kWh = £ 8.75

Total < £15 
 

Of course, home charging is a luxury and pretty much a requirement for cheap EV ownership. 
 

But single charging driveway space can charge 3 cars with some planning, for multi car households. 
 

Go up to EV sun forum and see my thread on EV tariff for 2.5p/mile motoring. 

Edited 9 September, 20232 yr by wyx087

I don't dispute your figures etc, but it is not possible for a large slice of the population and that's why I said that keep referring to home charging is NOT helpful in the slightest. It makes people either believe that having an EV might be beneficial for them now, so they go and buy one, only to discover that not only is there in some cases a lot of red tape and obstacles to overcome that they were not fully aware of prior to buying the car.

 

What is required to help people to switch to EVs is direct comparisons ICE v EV where the methodology of operating is give or take the same for each and the costs need to reflect similarly as well. I have mentioned before that in cities, there are masses of high-rise tower blocks and those people cannot even consider having a home charger installed, older style houses and roads also do not lend themselves to home charging, especially if you cannot even be sure as in my case, of getting a spot outside your own house in order to connect your charger.

 

So please, could everyone cease quoting their home charging figures as it is not a realistic possibility for many people. The sooner governments etc realise the way to speed up the process of converting people from ICE to EV is to make it as painless as possible. That has to start with the initial cost up front when buying the car, then the running costs need to be absolutely on a par with those for ICEs as a worst case scenario. They also need to ensure that there are enough working chargers around and that includes in rural areas to allow people to get tops wherever they are and not have to head into towns and cities and adding to their congestion just in order to get a top-up when you have been to a some outdoor event like Glastonbury for example. People with ICE cars will not normally have any trouble filling up without going into urban areas to do so.

Edited 9 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

2 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Yeah, I think it is not really helpful when people bang on about most people charge at home because I have always said that is not the case. It really does depend on whether you own your house, where you live, do you have incoming power etc. I live in a HA house which means that before I could even think about getting a home charger, I would need to get permission to install one, then I would more than likely have to have the incoming power upgraded, and then I'd need to be able to actually park close enough to the charger in order to use it. So many times if I have been out for the day and get back later in the evening, someone is parked outside my house and my drive has been blocked off by others inconsiderate parking as I live in cul-de-sac and 2 or more of my neighbours have 5 or more vehicles and have an almost constant stream of visitors, some even stay overnight. The estate is one which is open plan and there are no garden fences or gates etc and front gardens are only about 1.5 metres wide from house wall to the footpath.

So in real terms I think when people are doing their calculations they really should consider these factors and assume that home charging is real luxury and understand that currently for many is not really practical so would better off allowing for public charging, just as you do with ICE cars, who has their own home storage facility and a pump to allow them to buy their fuel in bulk at discount prices, which effectively is what you are doing when charging at home, so once again, its not really a fair comparison. 

 

There is huge effort to make available charging at car parks.  Here in little old Worcester there is over a hundred charger at in town shopping centres, garden centres, the railway station with prices from 36p a kWh to 45p a kWh, barely more, and in my case less than my daytime rate of my electricity.   Generally on the mileage people do one would just need an occasional visit to one of these sites to get a chunk of charge.

 

Lots of other options in front of drivers for the next 12 years even if pure EV is not for everybody.  My son's Clio hybrid is rated at almost 70 mpg, in urban driving will get well over 80 mpg as it spends half to three quarters its time in EV mode with the optimising My Sense set,  not even eco. Then there is ever cheaper options of the petrol phevs, the Capture able to do 40 miles in urban EV driving, the MG HS PHEV with it 16 kWh battery, both effectively sub £30k RRP and cracking buying deals.  There are some great deals out there now and looks like new cheaper cars and cracking deals as car makes are chasing not that many buyers do to the flat lining UK economy.