2 hours ago, Dieselgate said:

So whilst the phase out date for ICE cars is now 2035, there has been no change to the zero emissions mandate for the percentage of cars that manufacturers must sell that are zero emissions. If that's the case then it seems to me that nothing has really changed much? Whilst it will still be theoretically possible to buy a new ICE car in 2035 I guess the likelihood is that almost everyone will be forced into an EV long before then due to manufacturers not wanting to sell anything else.

Are we likely to see ICE cars artificially inflated in price from next year? Quite likely I think - especially with a fine of £15k per car on the line for selling more than your allowance!

 

Wanting an ICE car in 2035 is going to be wanting a Motorola analogue phone in the days of the iphone, or Samsung S23.

To extrapolate the incremental EVs have been following for the last ten years until a dozen years in the future they will be incredible.

ICE's plateaued about the turn of the millenium, since then they have just be polishing the turd, oh look better sat nav, sound.  Auto Gearboxes have got much better ie Merc 9 speed, BMW 8 speed, VAG 7 speed boxes, a part from that ICEs have reached their limit and only viable when more and more EV hybrid gubbins is added IMO. 

Edited 22 September, 20232 yr by lol-lol

Surely by now ICE vehicles at revenue weight in the UK even in the coldest weather should be able to achieve 50 MPG, especially ones not even Family / Taxi size.

 

There are big diesels that get 60 plus MPG even over 70 mph.

 

The Manufacturers were never really trying very hard over the past 30 years to reduce emissions and improve economy / fuel consumption with lots of their ICE vehicles.

They were building them to achieve WLTP & RDE2 results in the past 8 years or so.

 

There are some good mile munchers out there and some atrociously poor performing City size, small & medium and large cars about for sale new, 

and lots of Mild Hybrid and PHEV kidology going on.

 

All this allowed by the EU including the UK.

 

The pathetic inefficient EV,s that are available is just as ridiculous. 

@toot Not to mention all the ridiculous EV's that are coming out on the market with upwards of 250hp in the UK, where are you ever going to be able to use all of that available power here with the speed limits coming down all the time, utter madness.

59 minutes ago, toot said:

Surely by now ICE vehicles at revenue weight in the UK even in the coldest weather should be able to achieve 50 MPG, especially ones not even Family / Taxi size.

There are big diesels that get 60 plus MPG even over 70 mph.

The Manufacturers were never really trying very hard over the past 30 years to reduce emissions and improve economy / fuel consumption with lots of their ICE vehicles.

They were building them to achieve WLTP & RDE2 results in the past 8 years or so.

There are some good mile munchers out there and some atrociously poor performing City size, small & medium and large cars about for sale new, 

and lots of Mild Hybrid and PHEV kidology going on.

All this allowed by the EU including the UK.

The pathetic inefficient EV,s that are available is just as ridiculous. 

 

US has had minimum MPG targets/fines for cars made or imported since Jimmy Carter and the Arab oil economic power struggles of the seventies.

 

Eventually the only way to stop over using gas was limiting vehicles to the double nickel ie 55 mph, effectively 60 mph with tolerance.

Do that reduces tax intake of course.

 

TESLA, as usual, has the right idea, build a car with a aero drag coefficient of around 0.2, make the most efficient drive train, good regen tech. Same applies to EV or ICE.

Fuel efficiency, as the speed, costs money hence we have £20k plus for a "basic" car.    

 

It has gone much more crazy than even up to now with the stuff BMW have showing in the Media and sending out in Emails for what they are going to have on sale.

 

The UK Government really will need to get a grip on this but they will not.

 

I wonder about the UK politicians knowing about the cost of things.

Grant Shapps MP is a Tesla owner, no idea about Mark Harper MP or Rishi Sunak MP, Alok Sharma MP or others and driving in and charging EV,s at public hubs, maybe some have done this, maybe in other than a Tesla.

Sir Alok Sharma MP was chauffeured in EV,s if there were to be photo opportunities.

Edited 22 September, 20232 yr by toot

13 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@toot Not to mention all the ridiculous EV's that are coming out on the market with upwards of 250hp in the UK, where are you ever going to be able to use all of that available power here with the speed limits coming down all the time, utter madness.

Driving outside the UK is fun sometimes😉

Part of the reason why an EV isn't an option for me yet.

You leave the British Isles by ferry do you not, so not that far by road from Kent.

 

Funnily people across the channel drive EV,s and many will do it for fun & cover long distances.

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

Wanting an ICE car in 2035 is going to be wanting a Motorola analogue phone in the days of the iphone, or Samsung S23.

To extrapolate the incremental EVs have been following for the last ten years until a dozen years in the future they will be incredible.

ICE's plateaued about the turn of the millenium, since then they have just be polishing the turd, oh look better sat nav, sound.  Auto Gearboxes have got much better ie Merc 9 speed, BMW 8 speed, VAG 7 speed boxes, a part from that ICEs have reached their limit and only viable when more and more EV hybrid gubbins is added IMO. 

That surely is only because there has never been any real incentive for the ICE designers to do anything else. No legal or governmental pressure has been applied to them. Governments have been perfectly happy to keep taking the massive taxation that has been applied to oil and as long as the money was rolling in, why would they wish to disrupt it. The only real times the ICE designers ever really made great strides in the engine performance has been in F1 and at times when there has been an oil crisis which forced them to look at increasing economies.

 

I suspect that big oil has invested very heavily in the EV side of things, especially on the battery side of things as they can see the opportunity to make billions with far fewer people involved, therefore even greater profits, no oil refineries, no great oil tankers required, maybe easier extraction of the required minerals, follow the money. It is all to easy to swallow the stuff we are all being told about the EV being a magic bullet and the answer to the planet's problems, but is it?

 

If we all had to live with the mines used for extraction of the rare minerals for the batteries and all the toxic waste and poisoned water supplies as result of the toxic lakes, the hazardous living conditions that people in those areas have to endure, the poverty, poor wages paid to the workers, even young children etc, would we still think that the EV's were a good thing?

 

These are the side effects of EV's that we and most people do not get to see or have to put up with all we ever get to see are the good side of things and is this not just really a massive case NIMBY syndrome?? 

 

Man created the climate change, man could also reverse the change, but the problem there is of course no commercial gain to be had from doing so, once again we are back to the money. Even if there were zero toxins coming from the adoption of EV's, it will not cure the climate change, it will still be there.

 

What we need to do as a planet is to restore the forests, make the planet as a whole far greener with actual growing plants, that will convert CO2 into oxygen. Also develop processes that actually take CO2 out of the atmosphere and restore the ozone layer, yes it would cost money and nobody would be able to make a profit from such actions, but we need to stop the relentless pursuit of amassing as much wealth as it is possible and locking it away in various tax heavens that the top few elites love to do. Maybe if they had paid their fair share of taxes over the years, their taxes could have been used for the purposes of tackling reversing the damage we as a species has done.

44 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@toot Not to mention all the ridiculous EV's that are coming out on the market with upwards of 250hp in the UK, where are you ever going to be able to use all of that available power here with the speed limits coming down all the time, utter madness.

 

Or even 430 hp like the £36k MG 4 Extreme.

 

Some place, I think it is one or more of the Australian states, will not let learners drive most EVS, it seems, due to the "electric" acceleration from standstill unlike all ICE cars which take several tenths of a second to get going due to power = 2 x Pi x revs x Torque and ICE cars do not produce max power until the top third of the rev range where EVs do so in the bottom third of the revs range and tail off as revs climb.

 

Great for getting out at roundabouts etc and off at the lights but EVs can catch the uninitiated out hence the Ozzy restriction it seems. 

 

29 minutes ago, toot said:

cover long distances.

Just not so quickly😉

When Audi do the long distance EV promoting thing they just cheat and drop off Portable Battery Charging units where there are no chargers and fail to mention that in their vids or publicity.

 

Thank goodness for a Journalist maybe not in the Corporate pocket.

 

 

 

Edited 22 September, 20232 yr by toot

8 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Yes I do this in the Zoe now and then.  Particularly when the battery is 90% to 100% full and regen does not work full, nowhere for regen to go.  Just slot the gear shift lever in to N, keep hand on the shifter lever and pop back in to Drive/B mode when needed.  Zoe is single gear, some cars have two gears, that gear give max torque from about 1500 revs which is about 12 mph hence the good acceleration, 0-30 in three point two seconds but the motor maximum spin revs is 11k revs which is "only" an indicated 90 mph. So a bit weird compare to my Arkana's 7 speed EDC gearbox but Zoe single gear works pretty well,  it actually has a clutch apparently but it does not feel like a ICE clutch and it is totally under the control of the car's electronics but it feels like the clutch is disengaged and one is free wheeling when in N on the gearstick but rolling along at 30, 50, 70 or 90 mph indicated.  At 100 mph the dashboard shouts the electric motor is over revving as seen on Zoe ZE 50 doing a lap on the Nürburgring, 9 min 30 second in.  Think coasting in neutral helps give an extra few miles range.

    

seo

 

Well, I watched this video and saw nothing that showed how the Renault Zoe dominated the Nürburgring, it was constantly being overtaken by others, blatant clickbait and nothing else.

12 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Or even 430 hp like the £36k MG 4 Extreme.

 

Some place, I think it is one or more of the Australian states, will not let learners drive most EVS, it seems, due to the "electric" acceleration from standstill unlike all ICE cars which take several tenths of a second to get going due to power = 2 x Pi x revs x Torque and ICE cars do not produce max power until the top third of the rev range where EVs do so in the bottom third of the revs range and tail off as revs climb.

 

Great for getting out at roundabouts etc and off at the lights but EVs can catch the uninitiated out hence the Ozzy restriction it seems. 

 

All this increased HP and performance that EV's have is also having the effect of pushing up insurance premiums, not only because of the increased likelihood of a car being written off if there is a chance that the battery might have suffered damage in the accident, but also because of the increased performance in acceleration terms over that of an ICE car of the same HP rating.

 

We really do need to look at restricting the performance of cars full stop, we don't have the roads capable of using the performance, so it makes a mockery out of having all of that power, and that goes for ICE and also EV powered cars

I have seen a few of the big ugly one on the road or charging, not seen one going quickly on the road.

Actually i very seldom do see EV,s speeding.

More often than not i see them on normal roads holding people up.

 

There do seem to be EV drivers that do not like if you pass them and they show just how quick the can acclerate.

Then they are back to trying to get range.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 22 September, 20232 yr by toot

7 minutes ago, toot said:

I have seen a few of the big ugly one on the road or charging, not seen one going quickly on the road.

Actually i very seldom do see EV,s speeding.

More often than not i see them on normal roads holding people up.

 

There do seem to be EV drivers that do not like if you pass them and they show just how quick the can acclerate.

Then they are back to trying to get range.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All of your observations beg the question just why are there so many of these big beasts, regardless of their drive train, it has to be one of snobbery I feel, one-upmanship, look at me in my big ultra expensive car, just because I'm better than you and thus I can afford to let everyone know it.👿  

Actually lots have them as a works vehicle and are not flash people.  Cheap business user vehicles.

Some of the nicest people you meet will be at public chargers with them and they drive many miles earning a living.

 

Then there are total ******* about who are clueless and just have what they think is a prestige car.

13 minutes ago, toot said:

Actually lots have them as a works vehicle and are not flash people.  Cheap business user vehicles.

Some of the nicest people you meet will be at public chargers with them and they drive many miles earning a living.

 

Then there are total ******* about who are clueless and just have what they think is a prestige car.

Yeah, I can see that would apply to some of them, but not the majority. I actually ended up with the Superb via a similar route as a company car driver, while many of my colleagues went for bigger more powerful engined cars like the Ford Mondeo's, Volvo XC90s, Audi's and BMW's. All those cars actually cost the company more in terms of the leases and yet at the end of their 3-year lease had far lower residuals. I checked to see if any are still on the road, and very few of them are. I'd love to know why, did they meet with a nasty accident or what, strangely enough, all but 1 of my Superb's are still on the road, and that includes my recently written off one, which has just been granted a MOT.

You might think it was busy, they do not know the place as never been there or are old.  None of those here, just not that bright or observant.

Common here with drivers of pick-ups.

Edited 22 September, 20232 yr by toot

I think it seems to be the same the same everywhere, pickup drivers seem to be taking over from Audi and BMW drivers when it comes to arrogance. 

Edited 22 September, 20232 yr by Graham Butcher

5 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well, I watched this video and saw nothing that showed how the Renault Zoe dominated the Nürburgring, it was constantly being overtaken by others, blatant clickbait and nothing else.

 

It was tongue in cheek.  Out of Spec Reviews has about 200k followers, he mainly is US dealing with US infrastructure and TESLA, occasionally pops over to Europe. Had about 50M views of his Youtube vids.  Zoe was doing not bad in the corners, suffers from being limited to 90 mph but sounds like handling and brakes wer not bad.  The 135 hp Zoe like mine, up to about 80 mph is similar to the 150 hp 2 litre diesel Superb in performance. Both would probably take over 10 minutes round the ring, probably closer to 11 minutes. 

https://zeperfs.com/en/duel5908-8148.htm

 

This is the Zoe some of us want to get but I gather the Alpine A290 (Renault 5) with twin motors and 270 hp in the little car will be the future hot small Renault car....

 

 

 

Ten minutes. Ha! I could do zat in a van.

I doubt you could or @lol-lol  but then maybe you are a very good driver.  EDIT, Aaa i see humour!

Clarkson did it in the Jag and then Sabine did in the Jag and then there was the van challenge.

 

Edited 22 September, 20232 yr by toot

I believe the Rimac Nevera holds the Nurburgring lap record for a production electric car, with a time of 7min 5sec to complete a full lap of the 20.6km circuit.

 

 

That is what 2 million quid and 1,914 bhp gets you then.

 

Danny Padrosa,s face just so funny when in the car..

 

 

 

This is very non showroom spec and surprises me it could do under 10 minutes.

But then it will not have had only 184 ps and running with the 2 regen setting .

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 22 September, 20232 yr by toot

Yes, @toot it was a tongue in cheek reference to Sabine's comment in that TG episode