@lol-lolAll a load of farting about that many can not be bothered about.  They just want to get in a car and drive.

But then UK NSL 60 mph roads like Harry goes road testing on and many drive and where regen will be wanted the EV,s do just fine even if you have a 98% battery and are doing 65 mph and lift off the accelerator.

 

People do not read the Owners Manual every time they drive other peoples cars, or check tyre pressures, or maybe get with a full charge or a below 90% charge. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 19 February, 20251 yr by Ootohere

10 hours ago, pinkpanther said:

The appetite for EV only appears to be muted outside the EU and UK it seems, and with the new administration in the US opting out of green energy targets will presumably be Stateside too?

China have lots of policy accelerating EV adoption:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0965856424002830

 

Current US administration had always been climate change deniers, he/they backed out of Paris agreement in the previous tenure and have done again this time. Therefore it is not a balanced view nor a good lead to follow.

 

10 hours ago, pinkpanther said:

As battery technology changes, which it might with solid state etc, then an EV might become an economically viable option for more individuals.

As mentioned just a few posts up, cars in general are expensive these days. EV are at about price parity to purchase.

 

It is vastly cheaper per mile to drive EV charged with help of private parking spaces next to home. Ensure private properties are not taking up public area.

 

 

 

This is going to be unpopular opinion, I personally think Japan has it right when it comes to car sizes and making sure streets are pleasant and clear from obstructions:

https://www.parkingreformatlas.org/parking-reform-cases-1/japan's-proof-of-parking-rule-(shako-shomeisho)

 

Quote

Under the 1962 Garage Act, motorists in Japan need to obtain a "garage certificate" (or "Shako shomei sho") from local police in order to register a car (or when changing address as a car owner). The certificate is to prove that they have access to an off-street parking space.

 

Japan's proof-of-parking rule has an essential twin policy, the ban on overnight parking, which effectively bans on-street residential parking. This ban on all-night parking makes it futile to cheat on the proof-of-parking rule. Suppose a motorist did cheat or bribe to somehow get a fake proof-of-parking certificate, where will you put your car? You still can't park overnight in the streets. Try it and the car would still be towed away within a day or two.

This synergy with the overnight parking ban also explains why it is no big deal that an exception is made (in some areas) for tiny cars or "kei" cars, which have yellow license plates. Owners of these little cars do not need to prove access to a parking space but they still can't park in the streets overnight.

 

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Even Harry from Harry's garage is not too bright on EVs and how they work.

 

I enjoyed his large glowing report on the Renault 5 as with Petrol Ped and most of the online car magazines comments on the R5 but Harry needs to understand the tech a bit better.

 

He took out the R5 on a coldish day and with 93% battery and pointed out the reg was weak ish, duh.

 

The combination of cold and such a cold battery and full battery where is the regen power going to go ?

 

Dash actually warn you will not get full regen until battery under 90 %.

Oh, now come on, considering how much has been spoken about the virtues of 1 pedal driving and the brakes never wear out because all but emergency braking effect can be achieved with regen, its not beyonds man's wit and skill is it to divert that energy created by regen in such cases where the battery is either too cold to accept the charge or the battery has SOC of over 90% to divert that surplus energy into a load bank or on cold days, direct it to internal heating elements in the car to warm the cabin. The car needs to be fully configured so that the driver does not have to become part of the car and spend time monitoring the parameters and altering their driving technique accordingly?

 

That will lead to plenty of accidents occurring, for sure.  

18 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Oh, now come on, considering how much has been spoken about the virtues of 1 pedal driving and the brakes never wear out because all but emergency braking effect can be achieved with regen, its not beyonds man's wit and skill is it to divert that energy created by regen in such cases where the battery is either too cold to accept the charge or the battery has SOC of over 90% to divert that surplus energy into a load bank or on cold days, direct it to internal heating elements in the car to warm the cabin. The car needs to be fully configured so that the driver does not have to become part of the car and spend time monitoring the parameters and altering their driving technique accordingly?

 

That will lead to plenty of accidents occurring, for sure.  

 

Regen power goes into supercapacitors first and then to the battery, or as much as it can take, which is as I said a bit limited when nearly full and cold too.

Agreed it would be good, in those cold conditions to give the heat pump some additional power or even the battery heated and I suspect that will come if it is not already happen on some EVs.

 

Software updates are happening all the time with EVs making them better ie Over the air updates.

 

What EV want to avoid would be to have the brake discs and pads simulate Regen so it feel consistent across the range as that we drop it down to the same polluting standards of 

ICE cars and it looks like chalk dust (John McEnroe voice), sorry brake dust...... 

 

 

35 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The car needs to be fully configured so that the driver does not have to become part of the car and spend time monitoring the parameters and altering their driving technique accordingly?

 

 

Reminds my of driving my friends vintage Morris where you monitor the car parameters all the time eg manual ignition  advance/retard and keeping an eye on battery capacity and manually turning off charging where the battery full indicator is the battery bubbling away.

 

Surely any modern electric car would just automatically deal with any regeneration issues etc, my hybrid certainly does.

Edited 19 February, 20251 yr by bigjohn

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

He took out the R5 on a coldish day and with 93% battery and pointed out the reg was weak ish, duh.

 

The combination of cold and such a cold battery and full battery where is the regen power going to go ?

 

21 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

Surely any modern electric car would just automatically deal with any regeneration issues etc, my hybrid certainly does.

It would appear not, and that on cold days with a well charged battery you cannot expect the same level of regeneration.

 

Be interesting to see what the liability would be of an accident on a cold day near home with the EV driver saying "my EV didn't slow down like it usually does so I hit the queue of stationary vehicles" - the driver would (rightly) blame the car for not behaving as expected but the manufacturer would say "they all do that sir/madam" and the insurer would shrug their shoulders as usual.

Battery is like the engine, it takes time to warm up. The BMS controls parameters so that the battery is well looked after, doesn't operate outside its comfort range. Just like modern ICE car ECU controls the engine parameters to reduce damage by hard acceleration from cold start.

 

EV can certainly have additional components to scavenge those excess braking energy. But it comes back to cost, weight and efficiency. Basic engineering design decisions (I'm sure Graham knows too well as he keep saying he's an engineer). Why add weight and cost when it's a very temporary effect that can solved by software, plus daily driving charged to 80% wouldn't feel its effect?

 

Alternatively, some of Audi's EV have been programmed to charge to lower true SoC, but show 100% to the user. Benefits are sufficient regen always available and faster rapid charging at higher SoC. But downsides are user inaccessible battery capacity, excess weight and more difficult to measure degradation.

 

 

27 minutes ago, bigjohn said:

Surely any modern electric car would just automatically deal with any regeneration issues etc, my hybrid certainly does.

Certain cars does.

One of software updates in Tesla blends in the brakes when re-gen capability is reduced.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-icon-on-touchscreen-limited-regen-braking-icon.284694/

 

Of course, legacy manufacturer will be stuck in their old ways of wanting people to buy new cars. I'm researching Megane's software system, people having to beg dealers to get bug fix updates pushed to their car is just crazy.

 

1 minute ago, PetrolDave said:

Be interesting to see what the liability would be of an accident on a cold day near home with the EV driver saying "my EV didn't slow down like it usually does so I hit the queue of stationary vehicles" - the driver would (rightly) blame the car for not behaving as expected but the manufacturer would say "they all do that sir/madam" and the insurer would shrug their shoulders as usual.

Pretty much all EV, even the very basic Leaf and Zoe over 10 years ago, have displays showing regen and drive power capability on the dash. Nothing unexpected will happen and the blame can only be on the driver for not observing instruments.

5 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Battery is like the engine, it takes time to warm up. The BMS controls parameters so that the battery is well looked after, doesn't operate outside its comfort range. Just like modern ICE car ECU controls the engine parameters to reduce damage by hard acceleration from cold start.

 

EV can certainly have additional components to scavenge those excess braking energy. But it comes back to cost, weight and efficiency. Basic engineering design decisions (I'm sure Graham knows too well as he keep saying he's an engineer). Why add weight and cost when it's a very temporary effect that can solved by software, plus daily driving charged to 80% wouldn't feel its effect?

 

Alternatively, some of Audi's EV have been programmed to charge to lower true SoC, but show 100% to the user. Benefits are sufficient regen always available and faster rapid charging at higher SoC. But downsides are user inaccessible battery capacity, excess weight and more difficult to measure degradation.

 

 

Certain cars does.

One of software updates in Tesla blends in the brakes when re-gen capability is reduced.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-icon-on-touchscreen-limited-regen-braking-icon.284694/

 

Of course, legacy manufacturer will be stuck in their old ways of wanting people to buy new cars. I'm researching Megane's software system, people having to beg dealers to get bug fix updates pushed to their car is just crazy.

 

Pretty much all EV, even the very basic Leaf and Zoe over 10 years ago, have displays showing regen and drive power capability on the dash. Nothing unexpected will happen and the blame can only be on the driver for not observing instruments.

 

Mechanic or Engineer ?

 

(Sorry Graham, bit of a sensitive subject, not a personal jibe just hot on the differentiation, you may well have do true engineering stuff).

 

Engineers design, develop etc. 

Mechanics replace, service etc.

One can be both of course.

 

9 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Battery is like the engine, it takes time to warm up. The BMS controls parameters so that the battery is well looked after, doesn't operate outside its comfort range. Just like modern ICE car ECU controls the engine parameters to reduce damage by hard acceleration from cold start.

 

EV can certainly have additional components to scavenge those excess braking energy. But it comes back to cost, weight and efficiency. Basic engineering design decisions (I'm sure Graham knows too well as he keep saying he's an engineer). Why add weight and cost when it's a very temporary effect that can solved by software, plus daily driving charged to 80% wouldn't feel its effect?

 

Alternatively, some of Audi's EV have been programmed to charge to lower true SoC, but show 100% to the user. Benefits are sufficient regen always available and faster rapid charging at higher SoC. But downsides are user inaccessible battery capacity, excess weight and more difficult to measure degradation.

 

 

Certain cars does.

One of software updates in Tesla blends in the brakes when re-gen capability is reduced.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/new-icon-on-touchscreen-limited-regen-braking-icon.284694/

 

Of course, legacy manufacturer will be stuck in their old ways of wanting people to buy new cars. I'm researching Megane's software system, people having to beg dealers to get bug fix updates pushed to their car is just crazy.

 

Pretty much all EV, even the very basic Leaf and Zoe over 10 years ago, have displays showing regen and drive power capability on the dash. Nothing unexpected will happen and the blame can only be on the driver for not observing instruments.

 

Miss the Zoe numeric display which is not in the Scenic.

 

Zoe would wack in 30 kws ie sone 38 hp back in to battery, minus a little losses. 

 

Scenic just gives silly graphs and pictorial. Give me the numbers please as should be close to 40 kws and 50 or so hp proportionally.

 

31 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Nothing unexpected will happen and the blame can only be on the driver for not observing instruments.

Can you confirm that when you are having to emergency brake you take the time to look at your instruments rather than at the rapidly approaching obstruction in front?

7 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

Can you confirm that when you are having to emergency brake you take the time to look at your instruments rather than at the rapidly approaching obstruction in front?

 

Any modern car does this anyways.

 

30 ADAS system.  Almost impossible to crash the car going forwards or backwards.

 

Perhaps we need to ban all cars over 5 years  or so old that have not got these safety systems as humans are the weak point in the safety equation ?

 

11 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

Can you confirm that when you are having to emergency brake you take the time to look at your instruments rather than at the rapidly approaching obstruction in front?

 

1 minute ago, lol-lol said:

Any modern car does this anyways.

That makes no difference to the problem that the EV won't have the same level of regenerative braking if the battery is cold or almost fully charged - you're ignoring the problem, not answering the question.

Different EV,s Different form of getting Regen Braking / Regening the battery.  The Renault 5 EV is different from the Alpine A290 EV.

 

Then Stalantis and B mode or D,    now cars with C and doing it in an opposite way from the Starting off mode.

 

MINI Electric Oxford built has a Regen Toggle.   Other cars have Paddles.       

 

As it is one pedal town driving and one pedal out and about are different things @Graham Butcher.

One pedal bringing you to a stop and putting on Brake lights is hopeless if you just want to lift off the power to slow for a corner.

 

As to regen and cold.  If COLD WEATHER happens to be an Icy / Snow covered road then as you drive easy and maybe use the brakes with care, or you would use the gear box to slow, or shift D to S with a DSG, the last thing you might want is the EV doing a one pedal LOTS of retardation. 

18 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Mechanic or Engineer ?

 

(Sorry Graham, bit of a sensitive subject, not a personal jibe just hot on the differentiation, you may well have do true engineering stuff).

 

Engineers design, develop etc. 

Mechanics replace, service etc.

One can be both of course.

 

Engineer by profession and mechanic by choice to keep costs down.

 

Its all well and good @wyx087 going on about keeping costs and weight down, but sorry, that does not cut the mustard as far as I'm concerned, just like the BS about ECU and cold engine V BMS and battery temp and all of this software can solve it etc is just crap. None of it is making the EV simpler then an ICE, It's adding far more complexity into everything single thing and these things are mission-critical at times, like brakes.

 

It would be far easier and more sensible for instance to strip out all of this regen nonsense so that the driver can simply transition from ICE to EV without having to get used to different ways of driving etc, need to slow down or stop, simple, use the bleeding brake pedal, it's been good enough for decades, so why change it? It's the same thing with the battery, and I just do not see why people struggle with the concept that the battery is simply a fuel tank, and nothing else. When has there ever been a requirement to monitor the temps on fuel tanks on ICE, the need to pre-condition it before topping the tank up, or the need to not exceed the 80% of its capacity or else the tanks' longevity will suffer. Like wise, with an ICE car, you don't need to source the right type of fuel pump or filling station to suit the type of car you're driving, any fuel pump will do other than sticking diesel into a petrol tank or the other way round.

 

The more the designers can make EV's become more like their ICE equivalents, the easier it will be for people to replace their ICE with an EV. Make the charging more affordable and accessible, have batteries that do not have to be so critical of temperature, move controls away from touch screens to actual proper switches and knobs etc, bring prices down to those of ICE cars and get ranges upto similar as those for ICE then a lot of the issues that people cite as reasons not to consider EV for their next car have been done away with as it really just then becomes much the same as having either petrol or diesel, i.e., no special requirements or conditions as far as using and driving are concerned.

 

We need less reliance altogether on software, we have all seen enough problems caused by software failings in our normal day-to-day life with things like computers, TVs, phones, sat nav etc all suffering from bugs / glitches etc that cause them to crash, reboot or lock up etc, we certainly do not need to have software in mission-critical parts of our cars.

24 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Different EV,s Different form of getting Regen Braking / Regening the battery.  The Renault 5 EV is different from the Alpine A290 EV.

 

Then Stalantis and B mode or D,    now cars with C and doing it in an opposite way from the Starting off mode.

 

MINI Electric Oxford built has a Regen Toggle.   Other cars have Paddles.       

 

As it is one pedal town driving and one pedal out and about are different things @Graham Butcher.

One pedal bringing you to a stop and putting on Brake lights is hopeless if you just want to lift off the power to slow for a corner.

 

As to regen and cold.  If COLD WEATHER happens to be an Icy / Snow covered road then as you drive easy and maybe use the brakes with care, or you would use the gear box to slow, or shift D to S with a DSG, the last thing you might want is the EV doing a one pedal LOTS of retardation. 

Exactly, we have been lifting off the gas peddle for decades as we approach bends etc and only touching the brakes when we need to. My car has adaptive cruise control and friends that are following me tell me that at times when I use the ACC that my brake lights come on far more frequently than when I don't use it and that is because it removes the throttle input to the ECU and replaces it with brakes if the vehicle in front is going slower than my set speed. The actual braking can be felt as well, whereas when not using it, I can sense that the vehicle in front is going slower can if, I'm not in safe position to overtake it, lift my foot off the throttle and allow the car to take advantage of the overrun on the engine to slow down slowly, ACC cannot do that, it senses anything coming into the radar cone and will brake until the set distance is achieved to keep us apart from each other.

1 hour ago, PetrolDave said:

Can you confirm that when you are having to emergency brake you take the time to look at your instruments rather than at the rapidly approaching obstruction in front?

In which vehicle are brake pedals optional?

In what vehicle can you do emergency braking without use of brake pedal?

 

The car clearly communicates the amount of regen capability. It gradually changes over long drive as battery warms up and/or energy is used freeing up room for regen. Nothing will come as a surprise when driving and regen in one-pedal driving are never strong enough to be able to use during emergency.

 

This is, again, one of those things that must drive the vehicle to experience it. Keyboard warrior at it again.

 

35 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Its all well and good @wyx087 going on about keeping costs and weight down, but sorry, that does not cut the mustard as far as I'm concerned, just like the BS about ECU and cold engine V BMS and battery temp and all of this software can solve it etc is just crap. None of it is making the EV simpler then an ICE, It's adding far more complexity into everything single thing and these things are mission-critical at times, like brakes.

What is BS about comparing cold engine to cold battery? Why does the software solution of blending in brakes for consistent one-pedal driving crap? The solution does make driving EV simpler and the software solution also makes mechanical design much simpler.

 

Again:

In which vehicle are brake pedals optional?

In what vehicle can you do emergency braking without use of brake pedal?

This is, again, one of those things that must drive the vehicle to experience it. Keyboard warrior at it again.

 

 

  

35 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

We need less reliance altogether on software, we have all seen enough problems caused by software failings in our normal day-to-day life with things like computers, TVs, phones, sat nav etc all suffering from bugs / glitches etc that cause them to crash, reboot or lock up etc, we certainly do not need to have software in mission-critical parts of our cars.

 

In what way could a simple throttle mapping look up table fail? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookup_table

 

Seems like a "new thing, don't like" knee jerk reaction.

Edited 19 February, 20251 yr by wyx087

@Graham Butcher Look in the Mk3 Fabia section.   the likes of 'high RPM'. threads.

 

1.0 TSI,s with a GPF and cold starts, cold morning, morning icy / snowy maybe.   Drivers concerned that they need to use brakes to hold the car back as they set off and try going slow and the car is running away with them.

 

Newer Technology, can catch people out,  as 'Coasting' does with some.  & that acts differently with different generation / models of vehicles.

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

It would be far easier and more sensible for instance to strip out all of this regen nonsense so that the driver can simply transition from ICE to EV without having to get used to different ways of driving etc,

 

 

I don't drive my ev any different than I drove my Diesel.

 

The only things i have had to get used to are

 

1: Not having to de-ice it before driving off.

2: I have a smaller capacity tank.

52 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

@Graham Butcher Look in the Mk3 Fabia section.   the likes of 'high RPM'. threads.

 

1.0 TSI,s with a GPF and cold starts, cold morning, morning icy / snowy maybe.   Drivers concerned that they need to use brakes to hold the car back as they set off and try going slow and the car is running away with them.

 

Newer Technology, can catch people out,  as 'Coasting' does with some.  & that acts differently with different generation / models of vehicles.

Yes, Mk3 Superbs also suffer from high RPM when cold for the same reason, and it can be disconcerting when idling, and you take your foot off the brake, especially when in reverse as the car will rapidly take off and if you're not prepared for it can be fairly alarming, that is something that the Mk1 and Mk2 never had. 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

In which vehicle are brake pedals optional?

In what vehicle can you do emergency braking without use of brake pedal?

 

The car clearly communicates the amount of regen capability. It gradually changes over long drive as battery warms up and/or energy is used freeing up room for regen. Nothing will come as a surprise when driving and regen in one-pedal driving are never strong enough to be able to use during emergency.

 

This is, again, one of those things that must drive the vehicle to experience it. Keyboard warrior at it again.

 

What is BS about comparing cold engine to cold battery? Why does the software solution of blending in brakes for consistent one-pedal driving crap? The solution does make driving EV simpler and the software solution also makes mechanical design much simpler.

 

Again:

In which vehicle are brake pedals optional?

In what vehicle can you do emergency braking without use of brake pedal?

This is, again, one of those things that must drive the vehicle to experience it. Keyboard warrior at it again.

 

 

  

 

In what way could a simple throttle mapping look up table fail? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookup_table

 

Seems like a "new thing, don't like" knee jerk reaction.

 

Most model cars you can just drive at a wall and it will emergency brake.

 

Think the UP or the like i first saw the demo, polystyrene wall of course.

 

My Scenic seems to it do so for a large leaf, not a Nissan but a tree leaf.

 

Remove the brake pedal I say, a polluting sub system !

 

Edited 19 February, 20251 yr by lol-lol

Ok, I was taken home from Dialysis in a Kia Nero EV today. Bing Maps reports the route used as 6.5 (SIX POINT FIVE) miles. The reported available range fell by 12 miles on this trip. I also have serious doubts that it could manage 200 miles without a partial recharge, so could not go from my parents' house to mine.

24 minutes ago, Paws4Thot said:

Ok, I was taken home from Dialysis in a Kia Nero EV today. Bing Maps reports the route used as 6.5 (SIX POINT FIVE) miles. The reported available range fell by 12 miles on this trip. I also have serious doubts that it could manage 200 miles without a partial recharge, so could not go from my parents' house to mine.

What was the type of roads used and the terrain like?

Reported / guesstemated range can easily fall once a passenger loaded, the AC maybe on etc.

The estimate being just that based on the recent miles covered before stopping, or coming off a charger.

You could cover 7 miles and then it starts to improve and maybe another 20 miles further you are back to the reported available range. 

 

It is a bit like with any cars, even diesels.

22 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

It is a bit like with any cars, even diesels.

Here's an actual example from a petrol car I used to own - used it for urban commuting all week (lots of slow stop/start traffic) and filled up with petrol on the way home Friday - range shown 300 miles. Went on a 100 mile dual carriageway & motorway drive on Saturday - range at end 320 miles! So I drove 100 miles and had 20 miles MORE range at the end...

 

How come? Estimated range in petrol/diesel VAG vehicles is based on the average consumption of the last 20 miles and my average consumption on the open roads on Saturday was much less than during the week.

It is how it is with every vehicle i drive with any way they are powered. 

 

The thing with a BEV is that many once stopped a while or charged then have the range showing based on 5 miles a kWh, or 4 miles a kWh.

 

As much as many say what they get it looks pretty much that many in the UK get around an average of 3.6 miles a kWh.

 

64 kWh battery x 3.6 is just 230.4 miles,  where the 5 miles a kW/h is 320 /  4 miles a kWh is 256.