24 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Got my electric rental car allocated to me from Lusbon airport, given a Pug 308 instead of 2008, quite nice and that is unusual for a Renault fan to say any Stellantis car is nice.

Have rented ICE cars in Europe before and the experience with EV or ICE is stark.

ICE cars the hire companies can take a deposit for as much as 200 Euros, charge you 50 Euros to drive it to the garage to top it off plus the fuel.

EV, bring it back with 70% plus battery and no charge, 10% to 69 % a 30 Euro charge, 35 Euros if less than 10%. It is almost worth not charging it up but then my hotel has 4 ultra rapid chargers and I think it is 30 cents per kwh plus 30 cent connect fee and Octopus Electroverse card words her supposedly.

The choice is simple, be smart or not.

Personally I've never had any issue with hiring an ICE car overseas and I've been doing it every year for about 30 years. I've never been charged to top up a tank as I return them full but then I always use local hire car companies and not the rip off big names...

Basically people know the score when they hire the vehicle as i is spelled out and people are told - so if they are stupid enough to get caught then more fool them!

Edited 10 October, 202510 Oct by skomaz

No problems either, the fuel charges are the easiest to avoid. Only got charged once by Sixt for one additional day late return, as always, I got photo and video of the car in their car park, was 20min before my finish time (I was cutting it close to avoid paying additional day). The check-in person didn't get around to inspecting the car 1 hour later. I complained and got the charge refunded.

The 70% EV return policy seems to be normal now. My Volvo EV rental with Hertz in Norway was similar. They give you the car at around 80%, expect it back above 70%. Huge amount of rapid charger just outside the airport for this reason, at petrol stations which I guess are also for rental returns.

The Tesla I rented in Faro last year was different though. Return at any %, no charge, I never pay for fuel service so it's not due to prior agreement. Ended up returning at ~10% IIRC and only done a tiny top up half way during our stay when convenient.

Personally, I think that's the way to do it. Return above, say, 20%. They got to charge the cars anyway if customers return at 70% and they promise 80% for cars going out. They can plug the cars in for cheaper smart charging or grid services with energy suppliers (think IOG or Norway's Tibber). Play to EV's strength that it is still useful as battery when parked, stop thinking in ICE terms.

Reading Sixt's EV energy policy it suggests they have no way of charging them up.

AI

"Return policy

• Standard policy:

  You must return the vehicle with a charge level equal to the level at pickup, which is a minimum of 80% for most rentals.

• Under 80% pickup:

  If the vehicle was supplied with a charge lower than 80%, you must return it with that same charge level.

• Charging fee:

  If you do not return the vehicle to the required charge level, you will be charged for the missing kWh at rates comparable to public fast-charging stations." 

Implication is that if it is returned low it will be rented out low.

Enterprise do this with ICE they take a photograph of the fuel gauge at pick up.

Maybe they make money on the missing fuel/energy?

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

Got my electric rental car allocated to me from Lusbon airport, given a Pug 308 instead of 2008, quite nice and that is unusual for a Renault fan to say any Stellantis car is nice.

Have rented ICE cars in Europe before and the experience with EV or ICE is stark.

ICE cars the hire companies can take a deposit for as much as 200 Euros, charge you 50 Euros to drive it to the garage to top it off plus the fuel.

EV, bring it back with 70% plus battery and no charge, 10% to 69 % a 30 Euro charge, 35 Euros if less than 10%. It is almost worth not charging it up but then my hotel has 4 ultra rapid chargers and I think it is 30 cents per kwh plus 30 cent connect fee and Octopus Electroverse card words her supposedly.

The choice is simple, be smart or not.

That is an easy one to solve, it only 5 minutes to top up the tank in an ICE yourself, also fuel stations are still far more common than EV chargers, so pop into a fuel station, top up the tank to the same level as it was when you picked up the car. They always record the tank level on the rental form and thus expect the car to come back with the same, if not then, of course they are going to charge you for it, it's the same in the UK. It is also incidently, the same proceedure with any courtsey car loaned to you while your car is in the workshop being serviced/repaired, nothing new or unusual about that.

Know that I'd prefer to spend a few minutes of my holiday, filling the tank than hanging around at a charger for far longer before driving to the rental yard.

Edited 10 October, 202510 Oct by Graham Butcher

You cannot mis-fuel an EV

A Morrisons petrol station mix-up has left several drivers with damaged vehicles and one facing a repair bill of almost £3,000.

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/25531698.morrisons-petrol-station-blunder-leaves-driver-3k-bill/?ref=rss

On 09/10/2025 at 08:24, wyx087 said:

This is the extend of the Renault data breech, officially from Renault. I am affected because I was in contact with Renault for my parent's Megane purchase.

•	First name & surname
•	Gender
•	Phone number
•	Email address
•	Postal address
•	Vehicle Identification Number
•	Vehicle registration number

ID fraud, yes; phishing attack, yes. Just like every other data breach.

How could those information open up an avenue for car theft?

I don't know the answer to that question, but those 2 people in the video claim to be software engineers, so I'd be more inclined to take their word that it is possible, then a keyboard warrior who thinks its not possible. When you go to see your Doctor or Dentist and they prescibe some prescription or proceedure to be done, do you disagree with what they say, or do you accept that they know more than you do about their own field of expertise?

Edited 10 October, 202510 Oct by Graham Butcher

On 09/10/2025 at 08:24, wyx087 said:

ID fraud, yes; phishing attack, yes. Just like every other data breach.

How could those information open up an avenue for car theft?

Maybe the danger is that if they can use the VIN and home and email addresses to get through the app go to his house and unlock the car?

5 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I don't know the answer to that question, but those 2 people in the video claim to be software engineers, so I'd more inclined to take their word that it is possible, then a keyboard warrior who thinks its not possible. When you go to see your Doctor or Dentist and they prescibe some prescription or proceedure to be done, do you disagree with what they say, or do you accept that they know more than you do about their own field of expertise?

Funny how your words change when the expert enforces your view.

On 17/08/2025 at 20:25, Graham Butcher said:

Covers EV fires and also mentions Luton airport fire and it also clearly states that no precise records are held by fire brigades as to the true split between petrol/diesel/electric fires so if they don't know how do the so called experts claim that EVs are considerably less likely to catch fire?

On 30/05/2024 at 00:56, Graham Butcher said:

I'm not an expert on that particular subject, but I suspect that it is related to how long any fire with a almost flat battery could burn for in a similar vein to a fuel tank that was almost empty compared to a full tank.

Similar to what you've claimed many times, I don't take answers as straight facts. When in doubt, I ask simple questions.

Just to be clear, I only asked the question, I did not "think its not possible" nor did I wildly speculate.

Edited 10 October, 202510 Oct by wyx087

29 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Know that I'd prefer to spend a few minutes of my holiday, filling the tank than hanging around at a charger for far longer before driving to the rental yard.

I would much rather not spend any minutes of my holiday dealing with these. Recharging happens naturally with rest stops, doesn't take any minutes out of my trip. Just like driving EV everywhere else.

Similarly, when returning, it is possible to not need recharging at all if had overnight slow charged to 100% at hotel.

Stop limiting yourself to think about refuelling. EV recharging is super flexible, just need to live with one to know all the possibilities.

2 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I would much rather not spend any minutes of my holiday dealing with these. Recharging happens naturally with rest stops, doesn't take any minutes out of my trip. Just like driving EV everywhere else.

Similarly, when returning, it is possible to not need recharging at all if had overnight slow charged to 100% at hotel.

Stop limiting yourself to think about refuelling. EV recharging is super flexible, just need to live with one to know all the possibilities.

I fully agree with all the above.

I am 1 year into my EV journey and so far have no regrets, coming from a very Diesel focused history.

At Home it's charged. Any day when the distance is further than range at departure. When parked if there is a plug available it's plugged in. (like having to pay to park) If there is enough to get home it's not.

Not once have I been worried about running out.

I am only a 6/7,000 mile annual user but it would make no difference to the how only the cost.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Funny how your words change when the expert enforces your view.

Similar to what you've claimed many times, I don't take answers as straight facts. When in doubt, I ask simple questions.

Just to be clear, I only asked the question, I did not "think its not possible" nor did I wildly speculate.

No not all, I have freely admitted that ICE cars can and do catch fire, but unlike you, I do not and have never tried to make out that everything with ICE is all fine and good and I'm perfectly willing to accept that like all things in life, they come with pros and cons.

Now compare that position with yours, you can never accept, anything even slightly negative about EV's.

I get it that you love your EV and I'm genuinely pleased for you that they suit your lifestyle perfectly, but that is not the case for everyone, as I and other have attempted to point in the past to you. The first requirement ideally is to have off street parking and be able to have the authority to arrange for a home charger to be installed, something that millions of people don't have. How about those living in multitenancy buildings, like bedsits, block of apartments, towers of flats etc? You would have them being treated like a lower class of citizen, forced into using expensive public chargers and wasting loads of their time sitting around while getting a charge in order to avoid a fine for running over the prescribed time limit which eats into the operators profits as it prevents other from using the charger, while you sleep all smug in your bed safe in the knowledge that you are not causing problems to other with your off street parking, charging and getting a first class deal on price of the Lecky as well.

Just man up it about and accept that it may never happen that some people could emulate your position, but as far as you're concerned, you seem that you could not care about others at all.

EV's are currently a major social and economic divider, unlike ICE, as anyone who can drive could quite happily live with one of those in their life and have done for over a century. The only way that they create social divides is in the value, type and sheer size of the cars, all of which also are 100% applicable to EVs as well.

11 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

No not all, I have freely admitted that ICE cars can and do catch fire, but unlike you, I do not and have never tried to make out that everything with ICE is all fine and good and I'm perfectly willing to accept that like all things in life, they come with pros and cons.

Now compare that position with yours, you can never accept, anything even slightly negative about EV's.

I get it that you love your EV and I'm genuinely pleased for you that they suit your lifestyle perfectly, but that is not the case for everyone, as I and other have attempted to point in the past to you. The first requirement ideally is to have off street parking and be able to have the authority to arrange for a home charger to be installed, something that millions of people don't have. How about those living in multitenancy buildings, like bedsits, block of apartments, towers of flats etc? You would have them being treated like a lower class of citizen, forced into using expensive public chargers and wasting loads of their time sitting around while getting a charge in order to avoid a fine for running over the prescribed time limit which eats into the operators profits as it prevents other from using the charger, while you sleep all smug in your bed safe in the knowledge that you are not causing problems to other with your off street parking, charging and getting a first class deal on price of the Lecky as well.

Just man up it about and accept that it may never happen that some people could emulate your position, but as far as you're concerned, you seem that you could not care about others at all.

EV's are currently a major social and economic divider, unlike ICE, as anyone who can drive could quite happily live with one of those in their life and have done for over a century. The only way that they create social divides is in the value, type and sheer size of the cars, all of which also are 100% applicable to EVs as well.

I think you are far too gone in the radical social media blackhole to really see what's going on.

Why having a go at me for asking a simple question? Am I not allowed to ask how you arrived at your statement?

1 hour ago, Stonekeeper said:

At Home it's charged. Any day when the distance is further than range at departure. When parked if there is a plug available it's plugged in. (like having to pay to park) If there is enough to get home it's not.

I'm happy for you that the EV fits your needs nicely, but what about when the distance is greater than your range and there is not the facility to be on charge at your destination. Many of the places I visit are miles away from any real civilization and could be there from dawn to late at night before driving back home again. That would force me to have to find a charger on route and even more time onto the journey. Compare that (currently) with the ability to fill my tank before setting off, and I'm good for over 500 miles at least before I need to add more fuel.

I'm perfectly sure that if people could charge easily at home, and also at least get to their destination on a single charge, plug it when they get there (work etc) and it can charge them enough to get them back home, that many more people would adopt them, they have so many other things in their favour besides just running costs (assuming home charging is the norm).

I'm afaid that I still firmly believe that the sensible thing to do is have EV's as part of the consumer choice and as technology improves that it might well be that most newer cars would be EVs in due course, but until, then the EV mandate should be dropped.

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

I would much rather not spend any minutes of my holiday dealing with these. Recharging happens naturally with rest stops, doesn't take any minutes out of my trip. Just like driving EV everywhere else.

Similarly, when returning, it is possible to not need recharging at all if had overnight slow charged to 100% at hotel.

Stop limiting yourself to think about refuelling. EV recharging is super flexible, just need to live with one to know all the possibilities.

I wish you would just stop this, see my reply to @Stonekeeper for answers to that question, which is once again, something that I have already explained many times before. Yes I get it EV's do have other benefits as well, but they also have drawbacks.

2 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

distance is greater than your range and there is not the facility to be on charge at your destination

Unless you buy an ev with very limited range in the first place. because if there was no facility at your destination you would arrange your rest stop at the last one available.

I cannot off the top of my head think of anywhere in the UK more than fifty miles from electricity.

I have never said EVs suit everyone but there is now an EV to suit everyone but they may be out of reach financially.

8 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

the sensible thing to do is have EV's as part of the consumer choice and as technology improves that it might well be that most newer cars would be EVs in due course, but until, then the EV mandate should be dropped.

I agree with this too.

"If you build it they will come"

44 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

Unless you buy an ev with very limited range in the first place. because if there was no facility at your destination you would arrange your rest stop at the last one available.

I cannot off the top of my head think of anywhere in the UK more than fifty miles from electricity.

I have never said EVs suit everyone but there is now an EV to suit everyone but they may be out of reach financially.

I wasn't implying that you did say they were for everyone. The fact electricity is almost universally available everywhere in the UK, does not mean that the motorist will always have access to it though, most of it will be in private buildings and they would take a dim view of someone asking to plug in their car I'm sure 😉

What I was implying is that there is a shortage of public fast / super chargers and also destination chargers. At the place where 2 of my son's work, they have wall mounted chargers there for the directors only, the staff nope, not even one, so that means that I have yet to see a single EV car among the plebs so to speak. Also many of the places I go to do plane spotting at various air bases, again, there is not a single charger in the area or within walking distance even. When attending air displays, there are thousands of cars parked in the designated spaces on the airbase and the surrounding fields, again no means of charging while watching, so that means adding even more time onto the already long times for driving to and from in order to top the range to complete the round trip, and those in the areas nearest to them are going to be crammed with long queues waiting their turn at the chargers.

That means that you and a few others are the more sensible ones and nothing like the evangelists who simply cannot hear anything negative said about them and going about the air quality etc, which is as it happens exceptionally good overall as it has been in the UK for a decade or more now so has nothing to do with EV's low emission zones etc, but everything to with manufacturing going overseas and ICE engines getting to somewhat better, with 96% less emissions since about 1992. 👍

3 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

That means that you and a few others are the more sensible ones and nothing like the evangelists who simply cannot hear anything negative said about them and going about the air quality etc,

What if I mention ULEZ, is that going to trigger another rant? 🤭

4 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

I wasn't implying that you did say they were for everyone. The fact electricity is almost universally available everywhere in the UK, does not mean that the motorist will always have access to it though, most of it will be in private buildings and they would take a dim view of someone asking to plug in their car I'm sure 😉

What I was implying is that there is a shortage of public fast / super chargers and also destination chargers. At the place where 2 of my son's work, they have wall mounted chargers there for the directors only, the staff nope, not even one, so that means that I have yet to see a single EV car among the plebs so to speak. Also many of the places I go to do plane spotting at various air bases, again, there is not a single charger in the area or within walking distance even. When attending air displays, there are thousands of cars parked in the designated spaces on the airbase and the surrounding fields, again no means of charging while watching, so that means adding even more time onto the already long times for driving to and from in order to top the range to complete the round trip, and those in the areas nearest to them are going to be crammed with long queues waiting their turn at the chargers.

That means that you and a few others are the more sensible ones and nothing like the evangelists who simply cannot hear anything negative said about them and going about the air quality etc, which is as it happens exceptionally good overall as it has been in the UK for a decade or more now so has nothing to do with EV's low emission zones etc, but everything to with manufacturing going overseas and ICE engines getting to somewhat better, with 96% less emissions since about 1992. 👍

These problems do not exist at the level you believe them to be. I’ve done 1500 miles in 3 weeks with no issues whatsoever. This has cost around £30 in electricity compared to £225 in my previous Superb.

On two journeys of just over 200 miles round trip I planned a short top up charge but actually didn’t need it (probably same journey in winter I would ). I’m no evangelist, there’s still a lot to improve, but there isn’t anything to prevent an ev being a perfectly capable car for most users.

26 minutes ago, classic said:

These problems do not exist at the level you believe them to be. I’ve done 1500 miles in 3 weeks with no issues whatsoever. This has cost around £30 in electricity compared to £225 in my previous Superb.

On two journeys of just over 200 miles round trip I planned a short top up charge but actually didn’t need it (probably same journey in winter I would ). I’m no evangelist, there’s still a lot to improve, but there isn’t anything to prevent an ev being a perfectly capable car for most users.

Oh dear, you all seem to be getting completely the wrong impression, I never said that there was any problem with them fitting some peoples usage patterns or for the occasional longer trips, if you can accommodate and factor in the odd rest point with a spot of charging. But that however is not everyone's idea of motoring pleasure. Some prefer to drive straight to their destination, do whatever it is/was that they went there for and then drive all the way back again, without any planned stops for rest etc. They will have had plenty of time to make use of the restroom facilities at their destinations, so are only interested in getting back home to their families ASAP, especially as they may have been on the road since 4AM to get to their destination in order get a decent spot. Get there too late and often, you will be turned away by the Police etc as there is no safe place to park your car etc, and then on top of that, you may be there until 8PM and then have a 3 hour or maybe longer drive home. Stopping to charge just adds to that long drive home and means that you may be at greater risk by so doing.

You clearly are able to charge at home, hence the savings in fuel, but as I mentioned earlier, that is not the case for millions of others. One thing I would add to this as well is, don't be surprised if those running cost take a sudden upward trend, as more EVs find their way onto the roads, the lost revenue from VED and fuel duty will have to be clawed back in other ways, the government and normal motorists cannot continue to bankroll you EV boys forever, because that is precisely what is happening right now, you are enjoying those running costs as the ordinary tax payers are picking up the slack, so that's not really fair on others either, and just adding to the social divide I eluded earlier

EV/ PIHV etc drivers are ordinary tax payers.

I guess people who have to drive to a destination hundreds of miles away and then need to return hundreds of miles in one go will have to keep away from EVs until their range improves.

As for tax, I pay a fair amount to HMRC and my ev will be £195 ved (I think).

There’s no doubt that some sort of pay per mile road tax will come in the future or maybe smart meters will calculate tax to replace fuel duty. As it stands that isn’t the case which makes this the absolute sweet spot to run an EV.

You, Barrie Crampton, the MacMaster (who is actually taking the p*** out of the anti EV crowd), and the other obsessed characters are just doing EV drivers a favour putting people off, so many thanks 👍.

9 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

That is an easy one to solve, it only 5 minutes to top up the tank in an ICE yourself, also fuel stations are still far more common than EV chargers, so pop into a fuel station, top up the tank to the same level as it was when you picked up the car. They always record the tank level on the rental form and thus expect the car to come back with the same, if not then, of course they are going to charge you for it, it's the same in the UK. It is also incidently, the same proceedure with any courtsey car loaned to you while your car is in the workshop being serviced/repaired, nothing new or unusual about that.

Know that I'd prefer to spend a few minutes of my holiday, filling the tank than hanging around at a charger for far longer before driving to the rental yard.

For some reason could not get to the petrol station near Malaga airport despite Google Maps so had to concede dropping it off with three quarters a tank but even though only 10 litres short the car hire, think it might have been Goldstar who are quite big in Iberia, still went to the rules and it was a 50 Euro charge for not being full and another 10 Euros for the fuel to top off. Presumably the 50 Euros is for the Employee time to carry out the process.

With EVs there seems to be one rolled in fee for the employee charging and cost if energy and that charge is about half what it was for ICE. Even better than the UK, presumably as electricity costs are so much lower here than UK but sisel and petrol fuel prices similar the EV returning not full is much cheaper or no charge. 70% battery SOC, nothing to pay and 19% to 69% about half, or less, than disel petrol would be. Think Tennerife was cheaper for diesel and petrol but then it is a special territory.

Will definitely use EV again rather than ICE for European mainland and I think my Octopus Electroverse card works on over 300k chargers throughout. Just bumped into Shakey Burns and James Tosland at the bar. Shame the racing at Estoril is not EV bikes. Locals in Estoril are banning most racing at Estoril circuit due to noise but that would not be a problem for Electric bikes, I can see this circuit closing due to ICE noise in the not too distant future and perhaps other circuits too due to Nimbys. Formula e will be faster/ quicker than F1 next year with their Gen 4 cars and like road cars EVs are now the fastest cars on the road as can be seen with the latest Chinese supercar offering and at a fraction of the price.

Edited 10 October, 202510 Oct by lol-lol

Oh, I can understand the charges OK, except the EV ones, and here is why, ice is very quick to fill a tank for the next client, but EV, if low on SOC will take a time to get to 100% before they let the car be rented again.

The rules of hire are all explained before you rent, and it's bad planning to leave refilling the tank till the very last filling station, as you are an EV owner and thus used to planning charging stops, I'm somewhat surprised that you got caught out. If you are then for any reason, unable to fill up, you leave yourself wide open to the costs as per agreement. If you filled a few kms away, the gauge would still show full and you would be many Euros better off, they only go by the gauge.

As to racing noise and the nimbus, they must have known that the circuit was there, so why move into a house close to a circuit? We have the same issues in the UK with people complain to the RAF and International Airports about the planes making noises on landing and takeoff, FFS.

Electric racing will never hold the same amount of drama as it is the noise that adds the extra dimension and just the sound alone can convey the impression of speed so even partially sighted people can actually enjoy motorsports.

Sorry, but I don't get this obsession with the shear acceleration that EVs have, people are getting killed with cars that do 0 to 60 in 8 secs, so how many more deaths will there be 0 to 60 in 2 secs?

Edited 11 October, 202511 Oct by Graham Butcher

4 hours ago, Lee01 said:

EV/ PIHV etc drivers are ordinary tax payers.

Yes, they are but they are also beneficiaries of the special concession rates and the 5% VAT on home electric (those who can and do charge at home). I just wonder how they would fare if they had complete parity with ICE cars etc, i.e. a level playing field where the buyer had a free choice of any of the fuel types on offer, just how many would opt for electric etc, and what type of car would they be, family cars, SUV or city cars?

As a side note, I also know that many people here advocate driving for no more than 2.5 hours without taking a break, but many of us are also ex, or existing HGV or bus drivers, and HGV drivers must not drive longer than 4.5 hours at a time, and bus drivers must take a break after 5.5 hours driving, and hence why I say that many will prefer driving direct to destination and direct back home at the end of the day, they will not want to stop for a break and charge. Having been a lorry driver for around 4 years and also have driven buses, I know that they require considerably more skill and concentration than a car takes, so it should not be difficult to drive a car without the need for break after 2.5 hours, be they EV or ICE, makes no difference.

Edited 11 October, 202511 Oct by Graham Butcher