6 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

The reduction of cheap home charging hours does nothing to assist either

Have I missed anything? Which tariff recently reduced cheap hours?

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I used to know one of the architects on that Dinorwig plant and have been down there to see it; it is well hidden.

An amazing place. Probably only happened as we had the Central Electricity Board.

0 to full power in 20 seconds. Built to deal with a million kettles going on at half time in live events like World Cup.

Would like to see the Great Glen hydro project go ahead which is more than 3 times bigger than Dinorwig. Australia has a hydro project more than 3 times the Great Glen hydro.

Wonderful tech.

4 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Have I missed anything? Which tariff recently reduced cheap hours?

Oh yes, you have not been following the news, have you? Having said that, I don't recall seeing or hearing it on the mainstream media either, but some of the so-called biased and spreaders of misinformation bloggers on YT have got hold of it and maybe because they don't have to follow the narrative, have reported about it. What's the worst that can happen to them? Have a video demonetised; many don't care about that, only interested in the real truth.

Anyway, a quick couple of seconds on Google reveals that it is, after all of that, 100% true.

The growth of Intelligent Octopus EV charging tariff | Octopus Energy

UK's cheapest home EV charging now available from 5p/kWh

Edited 7 December, 20257 Dec by Graham Butcher

37 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Have I missed anything? Which tariff recently reduced cheap hours?

IOG is bringing in rules to stop abuse ie a fair usage clause for those who were getting over 6 hours 7p per kwh.

More of a rule change and still full 6 hours available. Think it us those with large ev batteries who were bending the system.

Several YouTube videos and Octopus giving some examples.

No big problem.

46 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

The growth of Intelligent Octopus EV charging tariff | Octopus Energy

UK's cheapest home EV charging now available from 5p/kWh

Fuse dropping a tariff and Tomato entering admin is more due to unsustainable market practices. Of course, truth doesn't matter, won't stop people fitting their own narratives.

IOG bringing in rules to stop people gaming the system I am fully aware. In fact, I recently joined Octopus forum and reading all the responses.

But IOG changes has nothing to do with reduction in time of use tariff. It is due to people reducing charge rates in order to game the system and get more than 6 additional hours defined as fair usage in T&C. New rules will enforce the 6 additional hours smart charging (still for everything) on top of the overnight 6 hours off-peak for everything. There is no reduction in the actual ToU tariff and off peak is still same price.

Octopus are fully aware of people gaming the system and have been attempting to fix that for a while. A few months ago they sent Emails to those identified as first attempt. Now they are changing the rules to enforce previously "fair usage". It shouldn't affect 95% of the users.

Like most things in life, there is always a body of people who will game things if they can get away with it.

11 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Like most things in life, there is always a body of people who will game things if they can get away with it.

It is a fuzzy area and gaming is a lose term. The UK government creates tax law to collect taxes and encourage certain behaviour, like saving for one's pension and obtaining a market for its debt ie by pension funds buying the UK government Gilts. Also like with facilitation of ISAs and the government grant for EVs and salary sacrifice for EVs and well as pension savings.

I am oft reminded of the saying of Britain richest family (the long line of the Dukes of Westminster), richer than UK royalty it is said that......

Every man is entitled, if he can, to order his affairs so that the tax attaching under the appropriate Acts is less than it otherwise would be. If he succeeds in ordering them so as to secure this result, then, however unappreciative the Commissioners of Inland Revenue or his fellow tax-payers may be of his ingenuity, he cannot be compelled to pay an increased tax.^[3]

UK government, past and present, wants its citizens to adopt EVs, save for their pensions, and they use the tax laws to do so. It was every thus !

Edited 8 December, 20258 Dec by lol-lol

There are those that have no idea what it is like to be working and earning and just keeping their head above water & nit get in debt. They really need to think on about how people are going to put more towards a pension or income after they stop working or are going to get around.

2 hours ago, Evolution13 said:

There are those that have no idea what it is like to be working and earning and just keeping their head above water & nit get in debt. They really need to think on about how people are going to put more towards a pension or income after they stop working or are going to get around.

But this is what Salary Sacrifice can be about. Not putting any more than mandated by law, 5% think it is currently, but that money is not taxed and goes straight to pension pot meaning more can go in.

Employers benefit as well ad their Employers NI is cut.

Downsides are it costs the employer something to operate the scheme and employees see a bit less in their payslips which might affect their house buying potential.

Similar for SS for EVs, employers could be giving staff less money to get them in a car to do their job and employee get a car at a big discount plus governments help get closer to their EV % mandate.

'The Downside'. was / is having to contract to receive less salary / wages. A different contract signed up. Those that can just get by on what they did or do get Gross / Net, they are the ones that are in the Social Divide of those with not only enough income but more than enough that they do not need to have it into their bank every month.

Edited 9 December, 20259 Dec by Evolution13

48 minutes ago, Evolution13 said:

'The Downside'. was / is having to contract to receive less salary / wages. A different contract signed up. Those that can just get by on what they did or do get Gross / Net, they are the ones that are in the Social Divide of those with not only enough income but more than enough that they do not need to have it into their bank every month.

“Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty-pound ought and six, result misery.” In the quote, Micawber is essentially saying that it's better to live within your means than to spend more than you earn.

It is why I am fully behind raising the minimum wage despite the protestations of businesses.

Everybody should be paid enough to save for their secondary pension and it is a crying shame if people choose to opt of pension schemes as they need they extra few hundred pounds of income or feel they had not enough headroom to join salary sacrifice.

I explained the negative side to one of my daughters about Salary Sacrifice for pensions and I think she understood. She is lucky enough to drive less than a mile to work and an ICE car is totally unsuitable for that journey where an EV would be perfect. As EVs become ever cheaper due to the battery costs falling plus the increasing Government grants hopefully we can get those doing short journeys in to EVs where ICE cars are not even getting up to running temperature and their pollution is bad.

On another note it is sounding like Ford want to start using the incredible successful Renault 5 platform as well as Nissan with the Micra of course, and the Alpine A290, Renault 4, Twingo etc.

@lol-lol Your influence on the actions of any political party or Government is zero though.

Salary sacrifice is not designed for the employee to buy a car.

The scheme is set up to benefit the employer

They can effectively pay lower wages, pretend the car is part of those wages, claim the costs of the car against business expense and the government can take tax from the lower wage off the employee.

Employee does not end up owning a car.

1 hour ago, Evolution13 said:

@lol-lol Your influence on the actions of any political party or Government is zero though.

I have been too busy to work with the party up until now but with retiring soon I hope to much more going forward. I was invited to the party conference in Liverpool but could not fit it in as I have a lot of HMRC case work to finish before I leave my present work.

Anyone has the opportunity to joining the ruling party and be involved and feed in to policy. My MP replaced the Con MP and regularly invites us for discussions and whilst he is a junior MP he can forward to the appointed Minister or one can go direct. Have considered becoming a Councillor and might do in the future but would not want to go as far a becoming an MP and too old for all that. Done my stint of regular trips to London meetings to HM Treasury when part of JCCC Groups.

49 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

Salary sacrifice is not designed for the employee to buy a car.

The scheme is set up to benefit the employer

They can effectively pay lower wages, pretend the car is part of those wages, claim the costs of the car against business expense and the government can take tax from the lower wage off the employee.

Employee does not end up owning a car.

Very synical.

Cannot remember the last car I actually owned, I think figures such as 90% are lease, PCP etc. With EVs, as they have been getting so much cheaper so quickly it is a brave person to actually buy one.

My Zoe had just gone back and ballon payment was about £13k but car worth about £8k so Renault, sort of, take the bath with that and not me.

The R5 i might keep but not until the 0% finance period ends.

One has to be very careful picking tge right EV Salary Sacrifice deals as some of them just do not look like good deals at all.

Also Salary Sacrifice for EVs, I think, really only works if one is a 42% or 47% tax payer rather than 28% as the deals i was looking at did not really even show that margin od advantage of a normal PCP deal one could get in the normal non EV salary sacrifice deals.

I have not had the opportunity and my present company do help provide company acquired cars but only from the VAG stable. SEAT is probably the only marque I would consider of VAG but their choose is narrow as VAG sort off missed the boat with EVs unless one looks at the top end Audis of recent biuld.

So I have been stuck with a £9k pa car allowance which the best i can do is to add that to the third to a half of wages I put from wages to salary sacrifice to pension and launder the money that way and get it as a part of the tax free lump sum next year and other 3/4 into Annuities and Drawdown funds which will be taxable of course.

Ideal of an outgoing of £500 a month for cars is quite horrifying when in retirement, must make sure provision is made. Mortgage should be gone in next few weeks so cars will be one if my biggest outgoings. As Martin Lewis says pay down debts with highish interest rates ie over 4% i reckon.

16 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Very synical

It's not cynical, it's borderline fraud.

Allowing Companies to pay people with Company paid for cars, when one is not needed for business use. To save NI contributions, but the Government benefit from BIK taxes based on a non decreasing value of a company asset, that does reduce in value.

It is a controlling measure of the wealthy that they have convinced the middle earner to support to keep their own taxation levels relatively low.

33 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

It's not cynical, it's borderline fraud.

Allowing Companies to pay people with Company paid for cars, when one is not needed for business use. To save NI contributions, but the Government benefit from BIK taxes based on a non decreasing value of a company asset, that does reduce in value.

It is a controlling measure of the wealthy that they have convinced the middle earner to support to keep their own taxation levels relatively low.

Your borderline ?

It is legally allowed and encouraged by the state though creation of the legislation and promoting of the schemes.

Car schemes and allowances have been part of UK employment practices for decades.

Companies have treated these add ons as sacrosanct for as long as I can remember. Even post Covid where there is much less travel and when Companies introduce travel restrictions when work mileage drops from tens if thousands to hundreds the car schemes stay.

I think the big companies do more so go down the route of car lists rather than other schemes and no doubt get a massive discount on those cars the likes us private buyers would see, even those of us with "Blue Light" discount access.

The bigger the company the more convoluted their tax avoidance schemes seem to be. I don't like their restriction of choice. Out if all VAG cars the Audi e- tron GT is really desirable. Near £90k which can be had for about £800 pm on salary sacrifice which is similar to my car allowance.

BIK tax is ramping up and still have to get your insurance so well over 1k a month cost.

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

It is why I am fully behind raising the minimum wage despite the protestations of businesses.

Everybody should be paid enough to save for their secondary pension and it is a crying shame if people choose to opt of pension schemes as they need they extra few hundred pounds of income or feel they had not enough headroom to join salary sacrifice.

I explained the negative side to one of my daughters about Salary Sacrifice for pensions and I think she understood. She is lucky enough to drive less than a mile to work and an ICE car is totally unsuitable for that journey where an EV would be perfect. As EVs become ever cheaper due to the battery costs falling plus the increasing Government grants hopefully we can get those doing short journeys in to EVs where ICE cars are not even getting up to running temperature and their pollution is bad.

On another note it is sounding like Ford want to start using the incredible successful Renault 5 platform as well as Nissan with the Micra of course, and the Alpine A290, Renault 4, Twingo etc.

Good god. If she's driving less than a mile to work she should be walking or biking. To do otherwise is downright lazy unless she has a disability that prevents walking.

Edited 9 December, 20259 Dec by skomaz

1 minute ago, skomaz said:

Good god. If she's driving less than a mile to work she should be walking or biking. To do otherwise is downright lazy.

Normally yes but forgot to mention she is driving a bit more than that to drop the granddaughter off at nursery.

Also the weather has been exceptionally foul and one would arrive like a drowned rat if walking or riding in this horrendous weather we are having.

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

Very synical.

Cannot remember the last car I actually owned, I think figures such as 90% are lease, PCP etc. With EVs, as they have been getting so much cheaper so quickly it is a brave person to actually buy one.

My Zoe had just gone back and ballon payment was about £13k but car worth about £8k so Renault, sort of, take the bath with that and not me.

The R5 i might keep but not until the 0% finance period ends.

One has to be very careful picking tge right EV Salary Sacrifice deals as some of them just do not look like good deals at all.

Also Salary Sacrifice for EVs, I think, really only works if one is a 42% or 47% tax payer rather than 28% as the deals i was looking at did not really even show that margin od advantage of a normal PCP deal one could get in the normal non EV salary sacrifice deals.

I have not had the opportunity and my present company do help provide company acquired cars but only from the VAG stable. SEAT is probably the only marque I would consider of VAG but their choose is narrow as VAG sort off missed the boat with EVs unless one looks at the top end Audis of recent biuld.

So I have been stuck with a £9k pa car allowance which the best i can do is to add that to the third to a half of wages I put from wages to salary sacrifice to pension and launder the money that way and get it as a part of the tax free lump sum next year and other 3/4 into Annuities and Drawdown funds which will be taxable of course.

Ideal of an outgoing of £500 a month for cars is quite horrifying when in retirement, must make sure provision is made. Mortgage should be gone in next few weeks so cars will be one if my biggest outgoings. As Martin Lewis says pay down debts with highish interest rates ie over 4% i reckon.

You really do have no idea whatsoever how many people live do you...

You are clearly well off and typify the well off socialist...   One without a clue, but with a lot to say about stuff they have no experience of...   

Edited 9 December, 20259 Dec by skomaz

8 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Normally yes but forgot to mention she is driving a bit more than that to drop the granddaughter off at nursery.

Also the weather has been exceptionally foul and one would arrive like a drowned rat if walking or riding in this horrendous weather we are having.

No such thing as bad weather just the wrong clothing....

That salary sacrifice scheme is one of the reasons why I retired when I did, as my employer was removing themselves from the burden of having to supply a company car for those who needed one in order to carry out their job requirements and shifting that burden onto the employee using that scheme. In other words, once I had entered into that arrangement, I became liable for the payments and maintenance, insurance, VED costs for the car, as well as the costs of providing a replacement hire vehicle should it become necessary when the car went in for servicing and repairs etc.

It made far more sense to me not to get a millstone around my neck at a time when I was already past normal retirement age, instead, I retired and purchased my existing company car from the leasing company when the lease expired, a couple of months after I retired. It was agreed that I could continue to use the company car til then, provided I took out an insurance policy on the car.

So as far as I was concerned, it was set up to benefit the employers rather than the employees, and it would have been a hefty penalty to get out of the contract should I be unable to continue meeting the payments due to poor health or losing my employment for whatever reason, which was totally unacceptable as far as I was concerned.

I’m not trawling through pages of bickering again, but… ffs stop the personal insults and keep it between the topic rails so mods don’t need to be told to start banging yer virtual skulls together.. again 👍🏻

It’s meant to discuss the realities of living with an EV… try and keep it there?

3 minutes ago, skomaz said:

No such thing as bad weather just the wrong clothing....

Time is money and to get ready to travel a mile for mother and child is not easy, sure we use to do it because we had to, one car in the family which usually went with the dad going off to work but now many families are two and 3 cars but I was simply saying how far superior EVs are at short journeys. Less damage to the engine, pre conditioning the cabin is standard, running cost for short journeys less too.

When the rain is coming across near horizontally, high winds for person and pram.

At least it is fairly flat i suppose, a mile in Yorkshire with those hills sounds like a big physical challenge.

3 hours ago, lol-lol said:

I explained the negative side to one of my daughters about Salary Sacrifice for pensions and I think she understood. She is lucky enough to drive less than a mile to work and an ICE car is totally unsuitable for that journey where an EV would be perfect.

Disagree, an old ICE car costing a couple of thousand or even less is ideal. Many people in such a situation just buy a £500 banger; as long as it has an MOT and is safe to drive, it is a far better cost option than getting a new car. As far pollution goes, it would again be creating less pollution to do that than it would be to purchase a new car for such a trivial distance; after all, the banger has had its manufacturing environmental impact already and would therefore be far greener to use than making a new car with its massive overheads and unless your daughter is going to be driving massive amounts each year, it is unlikely to ever get into the realms where its manufacturing footprint is wiped out.