the truth about electric cars

[domhnall]

11 hours ago, KenONeill said:

Lasting how long? I mean, for me a motorway toilet stop normally takes about 15 minutes from park car through visit toilet and shop to leaving car park.

 

At gretna I went to the loo then had to join a team meeting so was on for about 20 minutes. Then at lunch by the time I parked up, walked over to the service area, went to the loo, decided what I wanted to eat, ate it and then came out the car was full. (so was I, the noodle bar was excellent) 😉

[domhnall]

On 25/11/2021 at 09:08, KenONeill said:

Cite needed. I'm presently sat in a bay window overlooking a main route between a housing scheme and the local town centre, and in and out of Glasgow 3 days a week. I'm yet to see an EV (and few PHEVs) on taxi or private hire work.

 bloody Edinburgh is full of them, can't et on chargers for the buggers. In Dundee they are nearly all EV (they have their own charging hub) and in Glasgow they now have their own charging hhub which is good because it was also hard to get on Glasgow chargers due to the number of EV taxis.

 

[wyx087]

It's like when driving a car, you notice more of the same car on the road. I notice all the EV's on the road, including same model variants because I'm sad like that. I guess most people just see normal cars.

 

Hopefully the green plates will help with public perception.

[lol-lol]

10 hours ago, wyx087 said:

It's like when driving a car, you notice more of the same car on the road. I notice all the EV's on the road, including same model variants because I'm sad like that. I guess most people just see normal cars.

 

Hopefully the green plates will help with public perception.

 

Make sure one buys the green stickers for the number plates that have "UK" and not the "GB" ones which are on still on sale but not legal to get you accepted in to the EU as the date for allowing GB has already passed and one may get refused entry to EU countries at worst or falpping around for UK stickers to paste over the GB ones.  

 

[wyx087]

Being the tight git that I am, I'm not paying £35 for something totally useless.

As if my Nissan Leaf can make it to France haha

 

 

Topical video about cost of EV's:

video

[Ootohere]

^^^^ I had a laugh at this, the 3.8 mile per kWh is fiction or town / city driving.  Not sure who the Independents were that were getting this.  

171 miles from the 45KW would be going slow in a car with just a driver and not much else in warm weather.   You will not have 50 kW usable so 190 miles takes hypermiling to achieve.  The service and maintenance and VED cost of a petrol Corsa over 4 years is a ridiculous figure also.       OT.  Vicky in the Hybrid was a pretty pointless bit in this show. Loved the Renault 5 ish EV.   PS sitting charging my Corsa e now free.    Heated seat and steering wheel and heater on full was great to drive the mile to the charger.   In the past 48 hours the car had done 2 miles since charged to 50%.  It had lost 15% by the time back on the charger this morning.      At this temp of below 4 degree c getting 2 miles per kWh around town is about as good as it gets. 

Edited 3 December, 2021 by roottoot

[wyx087]

May be EVdatabase?

https://ev-database.uk/car/1192/Vauxhall-Corsa-e

3.84 mi/kWh.

[Ootohere]

The 2 of them are in a Corsa -e driving so only need to maybe actually drive 20 miles or preferably more and see what the miles per kWh shown with 2 grown men in the car.   Work out on that figure. The Lightest model on 16" 195 tyres differs from heavier more expensive on 17" 205 tyres, then the tyres are crappy Primacy 4 ditch finders that might mean best leave the car at home on snowy / icy roads.  They says real range estimate  ? Are they actually driving them.   I take it not as they are using Manufacturers figures and ones that the PSA calculator gives.  The 255 miles estimate is something that requires you to not exceed 40 mph on a route with renegening a plenty. Inflate the tyres more than you would normally.  I nearly achieved that one day but that was during night time.   I could buy or lease and run a new Corsa petrol automatic over 4 years so much cheaper than an electric if having to pay 20 pence min a kWh for electric if not getting a low cost home tariff or free charging.   That is using real world maths.  Be that 7,500 miles a year or 12,000. 

Edited 3 December, 2021 by roottoot

[wyx087]

56 minutes ago, roottoot said:

I could buy or lease and run a new Corsa petrol automatic over 4 years so much cheaper than an electric if having to pay 20 pence min a kWh for electric if not getting a low cost home tariff or free charging.   That is using real world maths.  Be that 7,500 miles a year or 12,000. 

How does that work? 

 

My real world data with 13p per kWh electricity tells me it costs 3.2p per mile. It's still far from 10.4p per mile using 53.5 MPG car at ~£1.20 per litre diesel over previous 4 years (only refueled diesel twice since the petrol-panic-price-increase to £1.50 per litre). 

So even at double 26p per kWh electricity, what most off-street parking charges, it would still be cheaper per mile than an efficient diesel. 

It needs to be over 45p per kWh to be more expensive than a diesel. More for a non-hybrid petrol. 

 

Checking my spreadsheet and updated with Nov data from the car. I got 3.96 miles per kWh over total 31k miles we've driven in our Leaf. So average of 3.8 mi/kWh a slightly smaller car is totally believable. 

 

Of course, there's 20% of charging loss we need to add on for cost of electricity we actually pay. But still far less than 45p/kWh break-even point I derived above. 

 

 

That's on the fuel. As mentioned in the video, also servicing cost savings, road tax savings. For some, also ULEZ and congestion charge savings. 
My diesel Skoda at similar age to Leaf and costed me same to buy need to pay both ULEZ and C charge. 

[domhnall]

1 hour ago, roottoot said:

^^^^ I had a laugh at this, the 3.8 mile per kWh is fiction or town / city driving.  Not sure who the Independents were that were getting this.  

171 miles from the 45KW would be going slow in a car with just a driver and not much else in warm weather.   You will not have 50 kW usable so 190 miles takes hypermiling to achieve.  The service and maintenance and VED cost of a petrol Corsa over 4 years is a ridiculous figure also.       OT.  Vicky in the Hybrid was a pretty pointless bit in this show. Loved the Renault 5 ish EV.   PS sitting charging my Corsa e now free.    Heated seat and steering wheel and heater on full was great to drive the mile to the charger.   In the past 48 hours the car had done 2 miles since charged to 50%.  It had lost 15% by the time back on the charger this morning.      At this temp of below 4 degree c getting 2 miles per kWh around town is about as good as it gets. 

How come you're losing power overnight? Thought that was only a tesla thing. Certainly my Enyaq doesn't lose any charge when sitting unused. 

 

[Ootohere]

@domhnall

It is not just a Tesla thing.

A software update might improve things and it can not be over the air updates.  The battery does lose actual energy as it can be left and needs more charging to get it back to where it was when left.

 

There are 2 Service Campaign items with the Corsa-e that Arnold Clark call Recalls without actually doing a call that there is a RECALL.

They managed to Service the car without a EV Qualified Technician and doing nothing but messing up the Service Reminder and the Updates notices which the car no longer sends to my phone or shows.

 

They are not getting the car until they guarantee a courtesy car for 4 days.

I know when they get a car for a Recall that should take a few hours they end up having them for 2 and fail to actually carry out the work.

I would be quite happy if they do mess things up as i would then hand the car back and give EV's a miss for a year or 3. 

 

If i went for a 10 mile run this would show 50 miles or so of a range.

Edited 3 December, 2021 by roottoot

[domhnall]

Should have stuck with Škoda George. Really can't complain about mine. My Renault zoe was awesome too

[Ootohere]

@wyx087

If i was going to go out and buy a keeper it would not be a New Corsa EV if not able to charge at home cheaply or free elsewhere.

If i wanted to buy a Corsa as a keeper it would be a petrol / automatic one.

(I would not though, i wanted to buy a Mk4 Fabia Estate petrol / auto but it looks like they are not to be.)

 

Corsa-e 70 reg 10 miles £22,000   

 2.7 miles per kWh for 10,000 miles 3703 kWh @ 20 pence £740.

If getting 3 miles per hour but 30 pence a kWh public charging to pay 3333 kWh is £999.

 

Corsa 1.2 100 ps 7speed Auto £17,327  Brand New.  Includes first year VED.   

so to pay after year 1 £180,  I luckily get free VED / Disabled Class) 

50 mpg for10,000 miles 200 gallons @ £7 a gallon £1,400 

(the 50 mpg is easily achievable driving the same way as the EV needs driven to get even 2.7 miles per kWh. 

Edited 3 December, 2021 by roottoot

[Ootohere]

@domhnall I wanted to be able to easily lift bikes including e-Bikes onto the roof.

This was the priority, and also a car that was fun to drive and to see if it could be done for free rapid charging. 

That was possible in Scotland South of Perth and still is, but not so once North of Perth anymore.

 

I did not want a e-Citigo or a car the size / height of an Enyaq which i could not get and would not get from Motability for £63 a week.

I did not enjoy driving a Zoe but almost went to get one when the Advance Payments on them dropped.

I would not have taken a ID3 regardless of cost.

 

If the MG Estate had been out when i ordered my car it would have been what i had gone for. Bikes inside if not on the roof.

I would actually go for the Long Range one now over a Enyaq or I.D.4 just because i like there practicality and that they are not an Enyaq or I.D.4.

I am just not a fan.

Edited 3 December, 2021 by roottoot

[wyx087]

34 minutes ago, roottoot said:

(the 50 mpg is easily achievable driving the same way as the EV needs driven to get even 2.7 miles per kWh. 

Not sure what's going on with your consumption TBH.

 

I find it hard to achieve 50mpg in my diesel in winter, around 55mpg in summer on my 29 miles commute, mostly motorway.

 

Whereas I gun it in the EV whenever possible and total ownership average is 3.96 mi/kWh. Last month average is 3.41 mi/kWh. Last Monday morning was 0c, I gunned it up the motorway at questionable speed because no matter what I do, I'd still need a recharge at work. That 29 miles trip was 2.7 mi/kWh.

 

But £740 is still half of £1400 to re-energise the vehicle. There's £4673 vehicle purchase price difference, so would take less than life-time of vehicle to break even (7.5 years). This is energy only, excluding other possible savings.

[Ootohere]

@wyx087   The major point is that i would be OK owning a petrol car bought now to be a keeper, even with GPF's.

  i would not take a current diesel to own in another 8 years time, 

and certainly not any EV currently available.

 

I owned Jimny's that i had for 17 & 14 years. They never bettered 25 mpg.

I had a Saxo for 11 years that did 42 mpg regardless of season.

I have a 14 year old diesel that does 26 mpg regardless of the weather or even if towing a car transporter.  

I go 10 mph slower when towing.

 

Poorer fuel economy in winter is not something i have ever had in Scottish Winters in 5 decades.

(Other than my 2016 Alhambra TDI /SCR / DSG that was not suitable for doing only a mile or 2 in cold weather but then not in summer either as 45 mpg-60 mpg became 25 mpg over a few days of just going a few miles a day.)

 

But then the winter thing with petrols is that there is no need for poor economy in colder weather.

You go slower when it is cold if the roads are cold and even winter tyres need not use more fuel.

If doing short cold start trips do not use a fuel guzzler to do them. 

Do not leave cars sitting running to de-ice / de-frost them before setting off.

Rather use a heater in the vehicle if possible to keep it from icing up. 

(If you can charge a EV off street at home then what stopped you using a Greenhouse heater in vehicles?)

 

Location locations driven and how you drive i suppose.

I get 46 mpg with my 11 year old 1.6 n/a Auto Suzuki,

i got 45 mpg with my Mk2 Fabia vRS's and 42mpg with my 1.1 Auto Picanto over 6 years.

50 mpg per gallon in a tank with the 100 ps 1.2 7 speed auto PSA cars is easily achieved including with the Combo Life.

Edited 3 December, 2021 by roottoot

[theweewizard]

SKODA ENYAQ IS TEST DRIVEN ON EPISODE 2 OF FIFTH GEAR RECHARGED, NEW VERSION OF FIFTH GEAR FOR ALL ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

[ColinD]

Found this interesting... https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0011wn5 well more challenging than interesting. I think the fact people get screwed over by big corps is well known.

[@Lee]

6 minutes ago, ColinD said:

Found this interesting... https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0011wn5 well more challenging than interesting. I think the fact people get screwed over by big corps is well known.

I caught part of that on iPlayer but dozed off  It's on my list of catch up stuff.
As an aside, Elon's putting up satellites at a fair old rate - smashing records even.

[lol-lol]

48 minutes ago, @Lee said:

I caught part of that on iPlayer but dozed off  It's on my list of catch up stuff.
As an aside, Elon's putting up satellites at a fair old rate - smashing records even.

 

The latest Tesla batteries do not use cobalt batteries in much of their cars.  It is possible to use no rare earth minerals at all.

[Ootohere]

Might be of interest to some.

 

Maybe he had a brain fart.   

28 kWh battery getting only 1.5 miles a kWh would be 42 miles 

 

EDIT,  it was my cloth ears.

He means you are getting 1-1.5 mile more per kWh out of that than any other EV.   Maybe true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 26 December, 2021 by roottoot

[wyx087]

The Ioniq 28kWh is crazy efficient, it can beat 40 kWh cars in a long distance race due to its efficiency. This effectively making it charge faster in terms of miles per hour.

[J.R.]

Can you explain that in laymans terms for a simpleton please? I don't understand what you mean by "effectively making it charge faster in terms of miles per hour"

 

I can understand that a 28kwh battery pack will charge faster than a 40kwh one and over a long distance would need charging more times.

 

I know all electric heating is as close to 100% efficient as can be (any losses create heat) despite what the snake oil salesman say about their heaters, with a vehicle power unit you want torque output and not heat, are one manufacturers electric motors  any more efficient than anothers?

Edited 27 December, 2021 by J.R.

[lol-lol]

39 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Can you explain that in laymans terms for a simpleton please? I don't understand what you mean by "effectively making it charge faster in terms of miles per hour"

I can understand that a 28kwh battery pack will charge faster than a 40kwh one and over a long distance would need charging more times.

I know all electric heating is as close to 100% efficient as can be (any losses create heat) despite what the snake oil salesman say about their heaters, with a vehicle power unit you want torque output and not heat, are one manufacturers electric motors  any more efficient than anothers?

 

I think what is meant that if an IONIC can go 5 miles per kWh, a Zoe 4 miles per kWh and a LEAF say 3 miles per kWh and the IONIC and Zoe can charge at 45 kWh but the LEAF can charge at say 65 kWh then the when the IONIC is attached to it charger and the LEAF to its then despite the LEAF being able to charge faster the IONIC is adding more mile for each minute it is connected to the charger than the LEAF even though it is receiving more charge in KWhs per minute the range is going up less quickly as the LEAF is relatively inefficient.

 

The IONIC has a good aero shape and a very good electricity management system to control and minimise power to those internal systems I do not believe that it has some magically better efficient motor just better shape and very good lecky sub systems.

 

I have not heard of an IONIC doing 300 miles ie not even close to the 425 miles the Zoe set a few months ago in the UK, 475 with special tyres.

 

[Ootohere]

They really must be very efficient. 

Where has it gone so wrong with EV's since then?

 

If Ioniq drivers were just doing rapid charging to 80% to have Rapid / Quick charge sessions then that would be 20 kWh only of a 28 kWh usable battery.

 

If the car did do 5.5 miles per kWh then that would be a 110 mile range, 

if the were charging and having 25 kWh of use then 137.5.

Lovely stuff.

A very efficient car.   If as efficient with maybe 4 adults or in cold weather then fantastic. 

 

...................... 

an Ioniq 30 kWh is 1,498 kg, 4,470 mm long, 1,450 mm high, & a 2,700 mm Wheel Base.

                             a Corsa-e 50 kWh, 1,530 kg, 4,060 mm long, 1,433 mm high & a 2,538 mm Wheel Base.

 

Yesterday my Corsa-e did a 40 mile run at 0*oC, 18 miles up into the Angus Glens and back home with just me in the car and the average speed was 33.7 mph going and that was getting 2.7 miles per kWh.

The return was 22 miles more downhill with more regening was an average 31.5 mph and i got 3.1 miles per kWh. 

 

Amazing stuff with the Ioniq.

 

 

 

 

Edited 27 December, 2021 by roottoot