the truth about electric cars

[Graham Butcher]

Yep, I agree about the diesel grunt but they say EV is similar, never driven one  myself but I can fully believe it, that is how electric motors are, fact. Motorbikes, nah never liked them personally too little personal protection for my liking 😒. The LEZs around the country are IMO just a revenue raiser. Some roads are split down the middle, one side is in the zone, the other not. So you could drive a poorly maintained diesel belching huge clouds of black smoke on outside section and the smoke won't blow into the zone, wind can still blow pollution in but you still have to pay to drive in the zone. 

 

Vehicles have to pass strict emissions tests after 3 years at their MOT tests anyway. 

[Graham Butcher]

4 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

I agree it's long distance in terms of driving time, Google maps say over 5 hours. But that's only ~300 miles. Even if you buy a 10 years old Model 3/Y, based on my Leaf degradation trend, it would still only require a single rapid charge session. 

 

I'm not knocking anyone's reasoning for their choice of car. I'm just laying out counter points to the idea that battery degradation affects usability, or that EV range isn't enough for occasional long drives. 

Well that isn't quite truth is it, it depends on a lot of things, like how the previous owners of EV have looked after battery for instance. Also how many 10 year old leafs can use a fast charger? I also think it is more then 300 miles on a  route planner. Mansfield and back is 300 that's where I got my current car from. Apart from that, who wants to spent 5 to 6 hours at best driving and also spending many hourss on site working, and then having to add on extra time charging, if you can find a working charger that is not already being used. 

[wyx087]

1 minute ago, Graham Butcher said:

Well that isn't quite truth is it, it depends on a lot of things, like how the previous owners of EV have looked after battery for instance. Also how many 10 year old leafs can use a fast charger? I also think it is more then 300 miles on a  route planner. Mansfield and back is 300 that's where I got my current car from. Apart from that, who wants to spent 5 to 6 hours at best driving and also spending many hourss on site working, and then having to add on extra time charging, if you can find a working charger that is not already being used. 

Just like buying any car, you check the battery condition before buying. You know its expected range and battery degradation when buying. You can spend a bit more for a better condition vehicle. Of course a 100k miles EV typically will have worse battery condition than a 50k miles EV. 

 

Apart from a few lowest-spec very early Leaf that were discontinued in around 2015 (IIRC), all other Leaf can use rapid charger. 

But I'm talking about in 2030 or later buying a 10 years old Model 3/Y, or any EV that is capable of over 250 miles with heat pump and battery thermal management. The battery degradation will be much better than 1st gen Leaf. Yet based on 1st gen Leaf degradation trend, 300 miles range becomes 250 miles after ~10 years. 

 

I thought you are retired? 

Regardless, are you saying you drive 5-6 hours non-stop? If you were working, how long do you usually stop mid-journey? 

Typical EV recharge time, 10% to 80% is 20-30min. So only 10-20min longer than a toilet rest stop. 

 

Think really hard about most journeys, driving distance on this small island really isn't very far. If anywhere is suitable for EV, it's on this island. 

[Ootohere]

There are no 'Strict Emissions Tests' carried out on vehicles in the UK after 3 years.

There are tests.

 

Fail the test and maybe take the vehicle for a bit of a thrash, go in for the re-test with the engine still hot and maybe abracadabra a pass. 

[promomast]

ill drive long distances 300 miles non stop... traffic jams allowing .. in fact the m25 became my nemesis ... i just wanted to get back pass thru the m25 before i could relax .... just water drinking no food ... the older i got the easier it seemed to be able to do strangely ... settle in do core workout whilst driving ... lands end ... survey building ... back in car and home to east kent 

[wyx087]

51 minutes ago, promomast said:

do core workout whilst driving

Please teach us! That's an useful skill for every driver. NHS should print posters to improve public health.

 

But for less able people, like myself, I think rest every 2-3 hours is typical.

[promomast]

21 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Please teach us! That's an useful skill for every driver. NHS should print posters to improve public health.

 

But for less able people, like myself, I think rest every 2-3 hours is typical.

 

9 years ago my then partner was a pilates instructor in blackheath london ... i sort of picked up how to's along the way ... ill write and draw some notes ..  and post them 

 

every stretch and release whilst driving is a good thing ... i tend to sit bolt upright in my seat snd arms comfortably bent at 10 to 2 on the steering wheel ... make sure the head restraint is mostly behind your head but not touching ... the only down side to bolt upright is even with ling arms i'm that much closer to the airbag 'bang' moment (not nice) 

 

we all have to judge our capabilities 2 to 3 hrs sounds about right depending on attention span ... i keep myself busy with can i predict cars around me next moves before they know it ... i drive into space at all times when i can 

 

another subject all together 

 

 

[Luckypants]

I'm unfollowing this thread as the bickering and off topic posts are polluting my inbox. I'm on holiday now so not going to be replying anyway 😁

 

One final point that is the truth about electric cars. Mine has been faultless on the drive to the south of France from North Wales. 4.0 miles per kWh average and its a piece of cake.

[Graham Butcher]

Hmm, this is most certainly something that needs to be sorted out and sorted fast, or are you EV lovers going to defend this kind of nonsensical carrying on, someone could get stranded.

 

 

[Graham Butcher]

9 hours ago, toot said:

There are no 'Strict Emissions Tests' carried out on vehicles in the UK after 3 years.

There are tests.

 

Fail the test and maybe take the vehicle for a bit of a thrash, go in for the re-test with the engine still hot and maybe abracadabra a pass. 

That is not what the DOT claim, to them, it is a strict test, fail that, and you don't get a MOT certificate, get spot checked at the roadside and fail slightly, you have 10 days to get it sorted or could be prosecuted. If your vehicle fails the emissions test at the roadside by a serious amount, and you will get an immediate ban on using the vehicle and may also get prosecuted, so its not a thing to take lightly. Good luck in getting a MOT test done while the engine is still hot, not of a chance in England, they are normally booked up well in advance and most want you to leave the vehicle with them for a while.

 

Emissions testing - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

[J.R.]

He makes a valid point, EV's can only become mainstream when a recharge is as simple as paying for petrol or diesel, you should not need a phone, different apps, different chargecards you should simply be able to pay with a bank or credit card and if its a manned station also by cheque.

 

I know very few people myself included use cheques but they are the ultimate back up, this time last year I lost my wallet and bank cards in the middle of the night during a rest stop at a French aire de service I had no means of paying my current toll charge and ones further on the journey also I needed to refuel within a couple of hours.

 

The péages were resolved quite easily, they have a very good system handled by the person responding to the "call for help" button, for fuel I waited for a non motorway (fuel is expensive there) attended fuel station, a truck stop and paid by cheque. I continued doing this for a couple of weeks until I could get new bank cards (another story in itself).

 

The person saying they had just driven to France in their EV got me thinking, if they lost their payment cards like I did they would be completely stuffed and a UK cheque will not "do very nicely sir"!!!

[J.R.]

9 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

If your vehicle fails the emissions test at the roadside by a serious amount, and you will get an immediate ban on using the vehicle and may also get prosecuted, so its not a thing to take lightly

 

Good luck in living another 100 years to have any chance of ever seeing a roadside emissions test, the Police and the DOT are all still (not) working from home, the only things doing any working are the speed and ULEZ cameras and the AI chatbots! 🤣

[promomast]

are we also considering the lack of cash payments everywhere ... i certainly dont like the idea of a government being able to see everything you spend your money on ... far too big brother for me ...  

[Graham Butcher]

9 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Just like buying any car, you check the battery condition before buying. You know its expected range and battery degradation when buying. You can spend a bit more for a better condition vehicle. Of course a 100k miles EV typically will have worse battery condition than a 50k miles EV. 

 

Apart from a few lowest-spec very early Leaf that were discontinued in around 2015 (IIRC), all other Leaf can use rapid charger. 

But I'm talking about in 2030 or later buying a 10 years old Model 3/Y, or any EV that is capable of over 250 miles with heat pump and battery thermal management. The battery degradation will be much better than 1st gen Leaf. Yet based on 1st gen Leaf degradation trend, 300 miles range becomes 250 miles after ~10 years. 

 

I thought you are retired? 

Regardless, are you saying you drive 5-6 hours non-stop? If you were working, how long do you usually stop mid-journey? 

Typical EV recharge time, 10% to 80% is 20-30min. So only 10-20min longer than a toilet rest stop. 

 

Think really hard about most journeys, driving distance on this small island really isn't very far. If anywhere is suitable for EV, it's on this island. 

Yes, I am retired but that still doesn't stop me from driving on long trips to distant air shows, to look at a car or even visit relations and I will often drive for 3 Hours without a break because some events are time restricted.

[wyx087]

19 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

you EV lovers

This isn't a me against them situation..... I'm disappointed you feel this way.  😘

 

The pre-auth is indeed a serious problem. I've heard story of over £100 being held in pre-auth due to failed charging attempts. There had even been story where BP would charge you and refund you the difference, but when charge point clunks out, user didn't get the refund!

 

 

At start of the video there is a demo with FastNed. Tesla cars works much faster in same fashion on their Tesla network.

Industry wide Plug & Charge standard is coming: https://electroverse.octopus.energy/community/ev-blogs-and-guides/what-is-plug-and-charge

 

 

2 minutes ago, J.R. said:

if they lost their payment cards like I did they would be completely stuffed

Mobile payment? Apple pay or Google pay?

 

TBH I use my watch to pay more than anything else these days. My wallet is only in my pocket as the backup.

[@Lee]

20 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

That is not what the DOT claim, to them, it is a strict test, fail that, and you don't get a MOT certificate, get spot checked at the roadside and fail slightly, you have 10 days to get it sorted or could be prosecuted. If your vehicle fails the emissions test at the roadside by a serious amount, and you will get an immediate ban on using the vehicle and may also get prosecuted, so its not a thing to take lightly. Good luck in getting a MOT test done while the engine is still hot, not of a chance in England, they are normally booked up well in advance and most want you to leave the vehicle with them for a while.

 

Emissions testing - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

It doesn't mention 'strict test' in that. Only that most vehicles must be tested. The word 'strict' doesn't appear at all. 

It also says they're 'usually'tested using a meter. Usually doesn't mean always. 

[Graham Butcher]

8 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

Good luck in living another 100 years to have any chance of ever seeing a roadside emissions test, the Police and the DOT are all still (not) working from home, the only things doing any working are the speed and ULEZ cameras and the AI chatbots! 🤣

No, I have been pulled over many times in my life by roadside DOT spot checks with police doing the official flagging down and directing motorists into a lay-by that has been turned into a mini test centre for random spot checks for roadworthiness, fuel tax dodging for diesels that could be running on red diesel, overloaded lorries etc. 

[Graham Butcher]

36 minutes ago, @Lee said:

It doesn't mention 'strict test' in that. Only that most vehicles must be tested. The word 'strict' doesn't appear at all. 

It also says they're 'usually'tested using a meter. Usually doesn't mean always. 

Nope, I agree but other google references to do use the term strict, but it doesn't alter that there are pass marks and fail marks set out in the test sheets that MOT testers and also department of transport roadside inspectors used to decide whether your vehicle complies to the standard or not i.e., pass or fail or indeed receives an immediate prohibition order, it is not down to the person at the time decide their own pass or fail ratings.

[Graham Butcher]

54 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

This isn't a me against them situation..... I'm disappointed you feel this way.  😘

 

The pre-auth is indeed a serious problem. I've heard story of over £100 being held in pre-auth due to failed charging attempts. There had even been story where BP would charge you and refund you the difference, but when charge point clunks out, user didn't get the refund!

 

 

At start of the video there is a demo with FastNed. Tesla cars works much faster in same fashion on their Tesla network.

Industry wide Plug & Charge standard is coming: https://electroverse.octopus.energy/community/ev-blogs-and-guides/what-is-plug-and-charge

 

 

Mobile payment? Apple pay or Google pay?

 

TBH I use my watch to pay more than anything else these days. My wallet is only in my pocket as the backup.

Oh please, I never said it was either, I'm saying that the payment system needs to be sorted and quickly, people will get stranded miles from home. I just knew that someone would rush to the attack as it seems that loads of EV owners cannot see the problem that he was highlighting and you just proved the point and took it as me against EV, which is utter rubbish.

Edited 6 September, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[@Lee]

29 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Nope, I agree but other google references to do use the term strict, but it doesn't alter that there are pass marks and fail marks set out in the test sheets that MOT testers and also department of transport roadside inspectors used to decide whether your vehicle complies to the standard or not i.e., pass or fail or indeed receives an immediate prohibition order, it is not down to the person at the time decide their own pass or fail ratings.

Google references are neither here nor there. What matters it's what's specifically worded in the MoT requirements which don't use the word strict.

Strict could be a sliding scale. 

If you want strict, get a car MoT'd (TüV tested) in Germany. It'll undergo a several hours long scrutiny. Granted, the TüV is valid for two years but there's nothing overlooked and no detail too small to fail you on. There's also no such thing that I know of as a 'friendly test station'.

LED reverse bulbs I had on my MkII Fabia which passed an MoT in the UK I removed upon selling it in Germany. Placed them in my Rapid and were pulled out and replaced with standard bulbs at its TüV test. I was told not to refit them. That's about as friendly as a friendly tester gets here. That was at a garage we (family wise) have been using for decades.

 

Just remembered, I had HIDs on it as well. I was told to remove them before the dealer I bought my Rapid off would accept it as a trade in. They also passed a UK MoT.

Edited 6 September, 2023 by @Lee

[Graham Butcher]

@Lee I'm not sure what you are trying say, I get it that the Germany TUV might be tougher, but are quibbling over the inclusion of the word "strict" in my post or are you saying that each tester/inspector makes their own rules up on what comprises a pass or a fail, I'm confused.

 

Having worked alongside many DOT inspectors for a number of years and I mean worked closely with them when they came to the bus garage to carry out the annual inspections on the fleet, I can assure you that the tests are extremely through and there was no such thing as that will be near enough, they have strict benchmarks that have to be met, even if the brakes were just 1% below the performance levels required for a pass on their brake meters, it was an automatic fail, likewise on emissions, yes they had emission tests years ago, and it was a clear-cut pass/fail test, no corners were given.

 

So using my experience and seeing my local Skoda test centre carry out MOT's it still seems to be pretty strict to me, even down to I have to remove the TomTom satnav from the car as it is mounted low on the dash as I'm very tall and can clearly see over the top of it, the MOT tester is short and always insists it is removed prior to the test.

Edited 6 September, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[lol-lol]

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

This isn't a me against them situation..... I'm disappointed you feel this way.  😘

 

The pre-auth is indeed a serious problem. I've heard story of over £100 being held in pre-auth due to failed charging attempts. There had even been story where BP would charge you and refund you the difference, but when charge point clunks out, user didn't get the refund!

 

 

At start of the video there is a demo with FastNed. Tesla cars works much faster in same fashion on their Tesla network.

Industry wide Plug & Charge standard is coming: https://electroverse.octopus.energy/community/ev-blogs-and-guides/what-is-plug-and-charge

Mobile payment? Apple pay or Google pay?

TBH I use my watch to pay more than anything else these days. My wallet is only in my pocket as the backup.

 

One youtube video recommended not suing pay at pump but going in to the shop to pay as then it is just treated as a normal transaction and no pre-authorising reserving up to £130 which is the UK maximum and some have reserved I gather.

 

I use a company fuel card for most of my purchases and then oft go in to the TESCOs shop to buy a meal deal , or two, and use the TESCO points if we ae filling up the ETECH full hybrid but that is doing around 70 mpg so does not need filling very often but certainly pay at pump will be used much less as word gets around and people bank accounts get even more stretched as we go deeper in to the cost of living crisis due to mortgage and credit card debt.

 

First charge up in the EV was a doddle with the Electoverse, one card to rule them all.  Nip off a get the McDs, no smelly carcinogenic fuel handling, I never use to use the gloves, some places even do gloves for the EV charging leads, wonder what that it to guard against, horrible to think but perhaps I should have my own gloves ready.  

 

[Ootohere]

@Graham Butcher4 counties in the UK and they are certainly not all in your vicinity. 

When was the last time of many you were pulled in for a 'Roadside check',  how many years ago,

or with 'Traffic cops'. Motorway Cops' or Interceptors how many years ago episodes are you watching?

 

When did you have DOT, VOSA / DVSA testers into the bus stations?   This will have been in England no doubt, like where the MOT stations are fully booked with cars / vehicles and nobody gets a first thing in the morning test.

 

Yes there are checks, usually when trying to disrupt crime, or like this in 2014 when there was going to be protesters turning up at Turnberry.

This is a good way to delay and gather intelligence.

 

The difference between you and me is me working at and hanging about garages and you at bus stations and maybe getting a MOT occasionally.

 

 

Edited 7 September, 2023 by toot

[Ootohere]

Pre authorisation of £99 was dropped at Super Market or Filling station pumps for £1 re-authorisation.

 

BP Pulse & Edinburgh Park & Ride were taking £15 pre-authorisation for the Chargers on Charge Place Scotland that often the card or App does not work.

So you tap a debit card maybe.

Now it is 1 hour max charge time but it was 30 minutes max & even if you got 50 kW charging for 30 minutes and 25 kW @ 35 pence that would only be £10.50.

 

I had used my card about 10 times and they had pre-authorised and were sitting on my money.

Some or most of my charging was only £7.00 a time because that was me topping right up when charging.

Maybe using the Rapid then moving to the 7 kW chargers to get to 98%.

 

**29 days to go back available, not a couple of days, but then i am not going by theory, by actual practice and having called them up and saying get that money back into my account as there were no warning messages or stickers you just introduced this, 

BP Pulse Customer Services knew nothing about their Chargers at the Park & Ride, but i did get the money re-credited within 24 hours of calling them.**

It was news to them that it was 35 pence a kWh there and not double that or more at their chargers normally.

 

There are plenty straightforward tap and pay chargers now.

If you lose your cards you lose your cards.

You probably lose the ATM card which you take your cash money out with.

 

As to Power Cuts, like Weather Related, the Filling Station might have emergency power for pumps, like when Pitlochry or Arran had no power, or the North East of Scotland 2 winters ago.

The Card readers do not work, the ATM does not work, and the Till does not work, but you can maybe open the drawer.

 

For the Dude in the Video he really needs to try an InstaVolt or PodPoint, tap your card as at a pump for liquid fuel, 

or as you do inside a filling station kiosk.

Even put it in the reader & put in your PIN. 

 

 

Edited 7 September, 2023 by toot

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, toot said:

Pre authorisation of £99 was dropped at Super Market or Filling station pumps for £1 re-authorisation.

 

BP Pulse & Edinburgh Park & Ride were taking £15 pre-authorisation for the Chargers on Charge Place Scotland that often the card or App does not work.

So you tap a debit card maybe.

Now it is 1 hour max charge time but it was 30 minutes max & even if you got 50 kW charging for 30 minutes and 25 kW @ 35 pence that would only be £10.50.

 

I had used my card about 10 times and they had pre-authorised and were sitting on my money.

Some or most of my charging was only £7.00 a time because that was me topping right up when charging.

Maybe using the Rapid then moving to the 7 kW chargers to get to 98%.

 

**29 days to go back available, not a couple of days, but then i am not going by theory, by actual practice and having called them up and saying get that money back into my account as there were no warning messages or stickers you just introduced this, 

BP Pulse Customer Services knew nothing about their Chargers at the Park & Ride, but i did get the money re-credited within 24 hours of calling them.**

It was news to them that it was 35 pence a kWh there and not double that or more at their chargers normally.

 

There are plenty straightforward tap and pay chargers now.

If you lose your cards you lose your cards.

You probably lose the ATM card which you take your cash money out with.

 

As to Power Cuts, like Weather Related, the Filling Station might have emergency power for pumps, like when Pitlochry or Arran had no power, or the North East of Scotland 2 winters ago.

The Card readers do not work, the ATM does not work, and the Till does not work, but you can maybe open the drawer.

 

For the Dude in the Video he really needs to try an InstaVolt or PodPoint, tap your card as at a pump for liquid fuel, 

or as you do inside a filling station kiosk.

Even put it in the reader & put in your PIN. 

 

 

Last time I paid at the pump, a few months ago was at Asda and the did away the cashier office/shop years ago at my branch so pay at pump or no fuel, it's your choice. And they do precharge your card £100 each time. Last visit they had 8 pumps, 4 of which were out of service. And there are zero chargers.