the truth about electric cars

[wyx087]

10 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

We know that we can split water to release those gases, we just need to find a quick, safe way of doing that efficiently and by recycling the water we will be using it wisely, and we also know that the end result of hydrogen as a fuel is yet even more water so no harmful emissions. So if we can find a way of splitting water, we stand to reverse or at least arrest global warming, stop the ice caps melting further and also have an abundance of clean power that is self replenishing.

It's all very nice in theory for when we have infinite amount of energy to do the bit in bold.

 

But in practice, efficiency is name of the game.

 

Of course, hydrogen will always have a place for things that can't really work with batteries. For example, cross seasonal energy storage, passenger planes, extra long distance trucking, extreme edge cases for passenger vehicles.

 

11 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

it is also an inert material to safely transport around the world and relatively easy to do, via existing pipelines, no need for large fleets of road tankers carrying volatile hydrogen, no need for massive storage locations of it either.

Hydrogen are leakier than Methane (very man-made "natural" gas), we will need infrastructure upgrade to pipe through homes for boilers.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/13/uk-poised-to-drop-plans-for-hydrogen-to-replace-natural-gas-in-homes

 

The advantage with hydrogen is its ability to be stored long term in comparison to battery storage. Storage is one of very valuable use-case for green hydrogen: store excess renewables across seasons. Again, it's only useful when there's too much excess.

 

Unless by "it" you mean water engine? Which is not a real thing, the claims are often tied to investment frauds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car

 

22 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

So whether it be hydrogen, or hydrogen fuel cells or even the water engine, they all ultimately rely on hydrogen, so those re the paths that I think we should be really looking towards for the future of transport.

Hydrogen combustion still produces a lot of harmful emissions, same as burning anything.

 

Hydrogen fuel cell is viable, using green hydrogen. But we don't have enough renewables to go around to begin with. Perhaps HFCV makes sense in a windy corner of Scotland. But I think EV has already gotten there first: https://www.sciencefocus.com/future-technology/the-orkney-islands-the-energy-revolution-starts-here

 

Water engine, is there any mass produced vehicle? Nothing is stopping them to be adopted later if it's real, just like the more promising, already mass produced HFCV.

 

25 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

What could be greener, zero waste to dispose off and an everlasting power source.

The everlasting power source is the sun, which can be easily turned into renewable electricity.

 

Hydrogen is only green and ever lasting if we never-ever touch other colour variations, must be green hydrogen. Also we must have huge excessive renewables to begin with. It has its use cases, but never forget it's a very wasteful fuel.

 

Water is only useful if you can use it to power stuff. I certainly don't want a waterfall in my car. I guess your car also doesn't look like this?

[J.R.]

12 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

We know that we can split water to release those gases, we just need to find a quick, safe way of doing that efficiently

 

🤣🤣🤣

 

We just need to find a way to disobey the 1st law of thermodynamics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It can never be done efficiently the energy used to create the hydrogen and oxygen will always be more than that liberated by the combustion.

 

It can be done by burning oil or through solar power, both are free resources but with a cost to extract, both give far better efficiency being used to directly propel the vehicle than from creating hydrogen fuel.

[J.R.]

12 hours ago, wyx087 said:

It's all very nice in theory for when we have infinite amount of energy to do the bit in bold.

 

Wot he said!

[Graham Butcher]

I just watched this video where 2 Mercedes-Benz EV's were crash tested together, very impressive indeed.

 

(1627) The world's first public two-car electric crash test by Mercedes-Benz - YouTube

[Stonekeeper]

30 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

🤣🤣🤣

 

We just need to find a way to disobey the 1st law of thermodynamics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It can never be done efficiently the energy used to create the hydrogen and oxygen will always be more than that liberated by the combustion.

 

It can be done by burning oil or through solar power, both are free resources but with a cost to extract, both give far better efficiency being used to directly propel the vehicle than from creating hydrogen fuel.

 

i wonder what John Logie Baird would have said if someone had told him that one day we could use nano particles and Quantum dots for TV screens.

 

Technology moves on.

[Breezy_Pete]

6 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

Technology moves on

Thermodynamics tends not to though.

[Stonekeeper]

In December 2022, the head of the Department of Energy and other federal scientific leaders announced that a fusion reaction they ran at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California achieved net energy, meaning the reaction generated more energy than was put in to initiate the reaction. It’s the first time humankind has achieved this landmark.

 

“For the first time on Earth, scientists have confirmed a fusion energy experiment released more power than it takes to initiate, proving the physical basis for fusion energy. This will lead fusion to be a safe and sustainable energy source in the near future.”

In the experiment on Dec. 5, about two megajoules (a unit of energy) went into the reaction and about three megajoules came out, said Marvin Adams, Deputy Administrator for Defense Programs at the National Nuclear Security Administration. “A gain of 1.5,” Adams said.

[Winston_Woof]

12 minutes ago, Breezy_Pete said:

Thermodynamics tends not to though.

[wyx087]

8 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

In December 2022, the head of the Department of Energy and other federal scientific leaders announced that a fusion reaction they ran at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California achieved net energy, meaning the reaction generated more energy than was put in to initiate the reaction. It’s the first time humankind has achieved this landmark.

 

“For the first time on Earth, scientists have confirmed a fusion energy experiment released more power than it takes to initiate, proving the physical basis for fusion energy. This will lead fusion to be a safe and sustainable energy source in the near future.”

In the experiment on Dec. 5, about two megajoules (a unit of energy) went into the reaction and about three megajoules came out, said Marvin Adams, Deputy Administrator for Defense Programs at the National Nuclear Security Administration. “A gain of 1.5,” Adams said.

That's great. Let's build hundreds of those in the next few months so we can have enough energy to split hydrogen out of water. 

 

But before then, BEV are the best options with the limited amount of electricity we have. 

[lol-lol]

 

26 minutes ago, Breezy_Pete said:

Thermodynamics tends not to though.

 

Our understanding of it and the human creation of the laws as shown by the fact us thermodynamics people had to come up with  Zeroth law after the publication of the first 3 laws 

Great to call the new law the Zeroth law,   - The zeroth law of thermodynamics says temperature is an empirical parameter in thermodynamic systems. It states the transitive relationship between the temperatures of multiple bodies in thermal equilibrium. The law says:   If two systems are both in thermal equilibrium with a third system, then they are in thermal equilibrium with each other.

 

Thermodynamics explains why ICE will always be crap efficiency as you have to either raise Temp H to beyond what modern materials can stand or lower Temp C to near ambient which makes the engine over large, heavy etc.      

As battery energy density increases at a fantastic pace and electrical motors already in the over 90% there is no future contest for even with the advent of turbochargers free energy supply. Most intelligent people know it quite aside from the pollution issues.

 .

     

[Graham Butcher]

14 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

In December 2022, the head of the Department of Energy and other federal scientific leaders announced that a fusion reaction they ran at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California achieved net energy, meaning the reaction generated more energy than was put in to initiate the reaction. It’s the first time humankind has achieved this landmark.

 

“For the first time on Earth, scientists have confirmed a fusion energy experiment released more power than it takes to initiate, proving the physical basis for fusion energy. This will lead fusion to be a safe and sustainable energy source in the near future.”

In the experiment on Dec. 5, about two megajoules (a unit of energy) went into the reaction and about three megajoules came out, said Marvin Adams, Deputy Administrator for Defense Programs at the National Nuclear Security Administration. “A gain of 1.5,” Adams said.

Indeed the above is true and I also seem to recall everyone saying that that space flight was impossible and that man could never set foot on the moon and yet both happened.

 

A shot for the ages: Fusion ignition breakthrough hailed as ‘one of the most impressive scientific feats of the 21st century’ | Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (llnl.gov)

 

We have had a test laboratory in Oxford for over 40 years looking at the possibility of Fusion and the results of the tests carried out are now being put into practise at a new site in West Burton Nottinghamshire where a new fusion based power plant is being built and there is also a similar test site in Cadarache in France.

 

 

 

Nuclear fusion is 'a question of when, not if' - BBC News

'No guarantee' £20bn fusion power plant will work - BBC News

Major breakthrough on nuclear fusion energy - BBC News

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wyx087]

Nuclear fusion, just like green hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, are just 10 years away..... for the last 40 years. 

 

 

[Ootohere]

Pumped hydro storage, battery farms, home and workplace battery storage, hotels with battery storage.  Vehicles used to store electricity in there batteries.      All these things happen now and just need expended on.      The generating of the electricity has been and is still simple enough.     It is just really a case of use it, maybe producing hydrogen when there is over generation and storage.      All the other stuff can happen if it ever does. 

Edited 11 March by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

If we think about all the things that we all take for granted today in our everyday lives, they were all thought impossible just a few generations ago. Was the A and H bomb even thought possible back in WW1 and now we have not only built such devices and used them, but also moved onto nuclear powered ships, subs and power stations. That's why I dont shut my mind to new ideas. 

[xman]

1 hour ago, Graham Butcher said:

2 hours ago, Stonekeeper said:

Indeed the above is true and I also seem to recall everyone saying that that space flight was impossible and that man could never set foot on the moon and yet both happened.

 

Yeah, I saw 2001 a Space Oddysey as a teenager too.

 

Vaguely seem to recall the spacecraft taking people to the earth orbit space hotel was made by Boeing, without doors opening unexpectedly.

 

No signs of Elon there unless he was one of the angry apes beating an AI monolith with a stick.

 

 

 

 

[xman]

27 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Nuclear fusion, just like green hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, are just 10 years away..... for the last 40 years. 

 

Its actually already happened, just they put the reactor 93 million miles away as its a bit hotter than expected.

[wyx087]

2 minutes ago, xman said:

Its actually already happened, just they put the reactor 93 million miles away as its a bit hotter than expected.

If only there's a super easy way to harness the energy from that reactor and store 90% of it somewhere? 😜

 

Well, I have those magical devices, and I am storing it. Everything I have is in mass market production in one form or another. We have this, we can use them right now. We can stop burning stuff right now. 

 

Apart from dogmatism, I honestly can't see any reason why people are resisting these mass produced magical devices. Instead, want something that was promised many years ago but never been put into mass production. All whilst still producing carbon emissions and burning stuff like the well trained dog of fossil fuel companies. 

 

 

 

 

 

This very long piece was my turning point, convinced me that EV's make sense, back in around 2015/2016, I saved it offline for reading on a long flight. Then in 2017 I bought Nissan Leaf as my first EV, and shortly after said the Skoda Octavia was my last ever ICE car. 

https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-life.html#part1

It goes from why electricity is best form of energy (part 1), to why it makes sense for cars (part 2), part 3 can be ignored because we've seen Tesla's rise over last 9 years since its publication. 

[wyx087]

48 minutes ago, xman said:

Its actually already happened, just they put the reactor 93 million miles away as its a bit hotter than expected.

https://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/the-deal-with-solar.html

" Musk calls the sun “this handy fusion reactor in the sky, where you don’t have to do anything—it works, it shows up every day, and it produces ridiculous amounts of power.”  "

 

 

[Graham Butcher]

@wyx087All very good, but don't forget that electric cars have been around since the 1800s, went out of fashion and then came again when something magical happened, better battery technology. Likewise, they can go out of fashion again just that if something better comes along.

 

History of the electric vehicle - Wikipedia

 

Interesting that the UK does not even appear on this map, kind of suggests that what ever we do in the UK is not going to make a single jot of difference worldwide.

 

Edited 11 March by Graham Butcher

[wyx087]

28 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

All very good, but don't forget that electric cars have been around since the 1800s, went out of fashion and then came again when something magical happened, better battery technology. Likewise, they can go out of fashion again just that if something better comes along.

 

History of the electric vehicle - Wikipedia

Just because EV's "went out of fashion" before fossil fuel does not mean it will happen again. Back then having electricity at home was a luxury, so charging EV is much more troublesome. Now, electricity is being supplied to pretty much every building. 

 

28 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

Interesting that the UK does not even appear on this map, kind of suggests that what ever we do in the UK is not going to make a single jot of difference worldwide.

I'm not sure why does energy consumption visualisation of US states need to have UK on the map. It's not a map of the world, UK might not line up with any of the states. Similarly, China doesn't appear on it, would you say the same thing about China? 

 

But this mentality that it's the other people's problem will never solved anything. But I thought you said humanity must stand united? Does that not mean solve problems together? 

  

On 10/03/2024 at 13:02, Graham Butcher said:

@Rooted United we stand, divided we fall and people forget that just how much we rely on each other to keep us all going.

 

[lol-lol]

Most Powerful Porsche ever.........   (Keep looking at the spec but just cannot find the Turbo on it, any ICE fans know where it is ?? ) 

 

With up to 1,092 horsepower, it takes just 2.1 seconds for the Turbo GT to reach 60 mph.

All told, the Taycan Turbo GT is the most track-capable Taycan the company has built to date. And it already has the accolades to prove it. On February 23, the Turbo GT Weissach completed a lap of WeatherTech Raceway Laguna Seca in 1:27.87—faster than any other electric car before it. And in early January, a development prototype lapped the Nurburgring in 7:07.55—faster than any other EV or sedan, gas or electric.

 

 

Edited 11 March by lol-lol

[Graham Butcher]

@wyx087Still missing the point, anyway, back then electricity was indeed a luxury that only the rich could afford, but equally so was a car, it took Henry Ford to change things around and that was well after the 1870s, some 38 years before the model T was introduced with its petrol engine and made cars more affordable. 

[lol-lol]

30 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

@wyx087Still missing the point, anyway, back then electricity was indeed a luxury that only the rich could afford, but equally so was a car, it took Henry Ford to change things around and that was well after the 1870s, some 38 years before the model T was introduced with its petrol engine and made cars more affordable. 

 

It was a chap called Frederick Wilson Taylor who was the brilliance that Henry Ford and many other production facilities used his techniques of industrial engineering in the principals of scientific management.  Ford was a businessman who used those principals that Taylor explained.  

 

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

Most Powerful Porsche ever.........   (Keep looking at the spec but just cannot find the Turbo on it, any ICE fans know where it is ?? ) 

 

With up to 1,092 horsepower, it takes just 2.1 seconds for the Turbo GT to reach 60 mph.

All told, the Taycan Turbo GT is the most track-capable Taycan the company has built to date. And it already has the accolades to prove it. On February 23, the Turbo GT Weissach completed a lap of WeatherTech Raceway Laguna Seca in 1:27.87—faster than any other electric car before it. And in early January, a development prototype lapped the Nurburgring in 7:07.55—faster than any other EV or sedan, gas or electric.

 

 

When it comes Porsche I'm not sure if turbo means anything more than just being a way to distinguish one model from another, it might not have a turbo. IIRC the 911 range has many versions and some have the turbo in their name but I think they don't have one fitted? 

[@Lee]

Lots of things have been suffixed with 'Turbo' since as far back as the 80's when they began to become more common on cars.
Turbo oven cleaners, Turbo washing machines etc etc.