19 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

In case you weren't aware: 

https://www.reuters.com/technology/space/us-achieves-first-moon-landing-half-century-with-private-spacecraft-2024-02-23/

 

Moon exploration was paused for 50 years because there wasn't much financial incentive. Again, as long as there's enough financial incentive, people can and will do the impossible. With V2G, there is huge amount of financial incentive (cheaper energy, not government grant). 

Indeed, I was aware of that, but history is always changing and right now the technologies you discussed are very much in their infancy and there can be no doubt that back in the early 70s there were all kinds of promising ideas and plans being drawn up to continue the space exploration. But it would be folly to think that lightening can't or won't strike again, no one knows what is lurking around the corner.

 

I remember the TV show called "The Jetsons" which featured flying cars and highways in the sky, not on the ground and this extract from the Wikipedia page sets the scene>

 

Premise

In the future, the Jetsons are a family residing in Orbit City.[12][13] The city's architecture is rendered in the Googie style and all homes and businesses are raised high above the ground on adjustable columns. George Jetson lives with his family in the Skypad Apartments: his wife Jane is a homemaker, their teenage daughter Judy attends Orbit High School, and their son Elroy attends Little Dipper School. Housekeeping is performed by a robot maid named Rosie, who handles chores not otherwise rendered trivial by the home's numerous push-button Space Age-envisioned conveniences. The family has a dog named Astro that talks with an initial consonant mutation in which every word begins with an "R", as if speaking with a growl; a similar effect would also be used for Scooby-Doo.

George Jetson's work week consists of an hour a day, two days a week.[14] His boss is Cosmo Spacely, the bombastic owner of Spacely Space Sprockets. Spacely has a competitor, Mr. Cogswell, owner of the rival company Cogswell Cogs (sometimes known as Cogswell's Cosmic Cogs). Jetson commutes to work in an aerocar with a transparent bubble top. Daily life is leisurely, assisted by numerous labor-saving devices, which occasionally break down with humorous results. Despite this, everyone complains of exhausting hard labor and difficulties living with the remaining inconveniences.

 

Then this.

 

Legacy

William S Higgins writing for The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction noted that the show "has become a popular metonym for 'the future'. While satirizing Space Age notions of a better tomorrow, the series seems also to have visually codified expectations of the future to a great many viewers: when the twenty-first century arrived, complaints that flying cars and jet packs were missing often mentioned The Jetsons.".[62]

 

Despite many attempts at developing the personal small flying cars that could zip through the air from point to point just like cars can on the ground, we still have not managed it.

36 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Regarding earlier talk about obsolescence: 

 

Nissan is shutting down 2015 and earlier car remote features: https://www.speakev.com/threads/any-way-of-activating-pre-heat-now-the-app-is-being-disconnected.183461/post-3574625

😞 

 

Suggested solution is to buy OVMS. Open Vehicle Monitoring System | Open Vehicles for £200. 

 

This kind of service shutdown is prevalent in smart home devices, another of my hobby. But I have gotten away with it try to only use local controllable devices via Home Assistant (as I say, people always finds a way). OVMS looks like it's similar idea. 

The closest I have so far got to smart home devices is a couple of Amazon Alexa smart speakers and a handful of Wi-Fi sockets that Alexa can control for me. Nothing too complicated and nothing that would result in a dangerous situation if the system were to fall over, which it has occasionally. It still has a long way to go before it will become a standard feature in homes, I feel. Much the same as V2H and V2G really in my view. You have already highlighted 1 potential flaw and that is that everyone (once we have the system) needs to get into the habit of plugging in.

 

One of the videos on this shows a car plugged into a public charger, which flies in the face of what you are supposed to do, plug in just long enough to get your charge and bugger off and let the next person in line use the charger. So anyway you go along to the charger and plug in because you need to top up the battery in order to continue your journey or drive home etc, and the V2G kicks in decides that the grid needs to zap what little bit of energy you had left to bolster the grid for a while, what happens then? You were expecting a quick pit stop, a coffee while putting enough charge into your car for the drive, return to car to find either you have not been charged, or have less in the battery then you started with or whatever??

10 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Any chance of a glossary of terms?

Haha, no problem. 

 

V2G - vehicle-to-grid (bidirectional charging and discharging to the grid) 

V2H - vehicle-to-home (bidirectional charging, and discharging according to home needs) 

V2L - vehicle-to-load, allow a load to be connected to the car, for example kettle or elec BBQ etc. 

V2X - vehicle-to-everything. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid#Bidirectional_local_V2G_(V2H,_V2L,_V2B,_V2X) 

 

First 2 need to be phase synced with grid connection, hence V2L comes first and is available on many EV's now. 

V2G need communication from grid operator.

V2H only need an in-home CT clamp, it tries to zero grid draw by providing power from car battery. 

 

CCS - Rapid charging connector, mandated by EU across Europe, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System 

Chademo - Rapid charging connector used on early Japanese cars, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO

 

G98, G99, G100 are application to export energy, the form depends on specific install. https://connections.nationalgrid.co.uk/get-connected/solar-and-wind/generation-g99/

 

Nissan Leaf/eNV200, Tesla Cybertruck, Ford F150 lightning, Cupra Born, VW ID Buzz can all do V2G and V2H. 

Most Korean and Chinese EV since 2020 (MG4, EV6 etc.) can do V2L. 

3 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

You have already highlighted 1 potential flaw and that is that everyone (once we have the system) needs to get into the habit of plugging in.

 

One of the videos on this shows a car plugged into a public charger, which flies in the face of what you are supposed to do, plug in just long enough to get your charge and bugger off and let the next person in line use the charger. So anyway you go along to the charger and plug in because you need to top up the battery in order to continue your journey or drive home etc, and the V2G kicks in decides that the grid needs to zap what little bit of energy you had left to bolster the grid for a while, what happens then? You were expecting a quick pit stop, a coffee while putting enough charge into your car for the drive, return to car to find either you have not been charged, or have less in the battery then you started with or whatever??

Plugging in wouldn't be a flaw when it becomes normal. It's super easy to do. 

 

You are not taking note of the difference between destination charging and rapid charging. Former doesn't need to vacate the charge point, latter is exactly as you described. V2G/V2H are for destination charging only. 

 

You would plug in and say "I want 80% at 5pm" and the charge operator manages everything in their back end. If need the car more urgently, just tell it as soon as you know. If EV have 300 miles to begin with and you set it to keep it above 40%, that's over 100 miles always ready in the battery without needing any prior notice. 

 

One form of V2G is to use EV battery for grid frequency stabilisation. In those instance, V2G would not take a lot of energy from the battery in large chuncks, it would do tiny charge/discharges to maintain grid frequency. 

13 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Plugging in wouldn't be a flaw when it becomes normal. It's super easy to do. 

 

You are not taking note of the difference between destination charging and rapid charging. Former doesn't need to vacate the charge point, latter is exactly as you described. V2G/V2H are for destination charging only. 

 

You would plug in and say "I want 80% at 5pm" and the charge operator manages everything in their back end. If need the car more urgently, just tell it as soon as you know. If EV have 300 miles to begin with and you set it to keep it above 40%, that's over 100 miles always ready in the battery without needing any prior notice. 

 

One form of V2G is to use EV battery for grid frequency stabilisation. In those instance, V2G would not take a lot of energy from the battery in large chuncks, it would do tiny charge/discharges to maintain grid frequency. 

OK, I can see how the system could operate as long as it has the capability to set limits and of course I had not forgotten about destination chargers, as the car as you have already pointed out, spends most of its time stationary, and the biggest amount of time is when at home or maybe when you're at work, so those locations are ripe for harvesting spare energy etc. But I was mentioning that the video showed a Leaf plugged into a public charger within the first 30 seconds of the video while talking about V2G.

 

57 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

 

Despite many attempts at developing the personal small flying cars that could zip through the air from point to point just like cars can on the ground, we still have not managed it.

 

Sure it's possible i have seen it on Twitter?

 

 

Recent talks about EV tanks etc, here is a video putting that into perspective: 

 

 

In short, climate change is the last thing to consider for military leaders. For them, most important aspect is combat capability. 
 

Also worth noting that large percent of emission comes from logistics and aftermath of war (burning ruins, rebuild efforts). 
 

I think it is same as looking at plane emissions at air show, only focusing at the spectacle wouldn’t solve anything. 

Just now, wyx087 said:

Recent talks about EV tanks etc, here is a video putting that into perspective: 

 

 

In short, climate change is the last thing to consider for military leaders. For them, most important aspect is combat capability. 
 

Also worth noting that large percent of emission comes from logistics and aftermath of war (burning ruins, rebuild efforts). 
 

I think it is same as looking at plane emissions at air show, only focusing at the spectacle wouldn’t solve anything. 

 

Heathrow is in the ULEZ zone so all us staff who work at LHR have considered the car we use to get to work.  The massive amount of vehicles doing pickup from the cargo centre are rapidly changing over to EVs which siut the journeys better anyways ie pickup from the various airline sheds and drop off at multiple freight forwarders remote transit sheds.

Getting the passenger to change is happening at a pace and we should continue to see improvements in air quality barring the oil nails of cars that are permitted to drive on the M25 which there is no tight control of and we need to get rid of those cars through scrappage scheme.

 

30 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Recent talks about EV tanks etc, here is a video putting that into perspective: 

 

 

In short, climate change is the last thing to consider for military leaders. For them, most important aspect is combat capability. 
 

Also worth noting that large percent of emission comes from logistics and aftermath of war (burning ruins, rebuild efforts). 
 

I think it is same as looking at plane emissions at air show, only focusing at the spectacle wouldn’t solve anything. 

As long as there are people who threaten the world's stability, then good luck getting the decarbonisation of the military anywhere in the world soon. We all need to find ways to be less confrontational and more friendly towards each other. With the huge number of nuclear warheads there are around the world, if they were all to be detonated the amount of emissions would be academic anyway as we could all be dead anyway .

 

If only the authorities were to put as much effort into decommissioning these weapons and promoting peace and co-operation as they are with going electric, then the world would be a far better place and also the air would be massively cleaner then it would be with 100% electric motive power.

Not to make light of those all around the world getting killed, starved, raped etc because supposedly they are so religious that they think torturing and killing others is perfectly fine, but the wars are really about land, oil and gas, and minerals and who controls the land and wealth there in. 

 

The only fighting over renewables so far seems to be with Planning or local or not even local objectors.

 

OT, 

But the people are being conned by DRAX and paying for that pleasure.  The whole Green Energy thing is a nonsense. 

 The UK Government and the political parties need to get a grip.

Edited 29 February, 20242 yr by Rooted

27 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Not to make light of those all around the world getting killed, starved, raped etc because supposedly they are so religious that they think torturing and killing others is perfectly fine, but the wars are really about land, oil and gas, and minerals and who controls the land and wealth there in. 

The only fighting over renewables so far seems to be with Planning or local or not even local objectors.

OT, 

But the people are being conned by DRAX and paying for that pleasure.  The whole Green Energy thing is a nonsense. 

 The UK Government and the political parties need to get a grip.

 

Ukraine is grain of course, and nice seaside holiday locations in Crimea and some other Black Sea resorts but also fertiliser I gather from the news.

Lack of fertiliser could could cause crop shortages in many other countries.

 

Much of the push of Green Energy is coming from individual and some very large businesses as well as the EU which still seems keen to pursue that agenda.  Carbon tax to come quite soon for all imports including the UK despite the Trade Cooperation agreement UK has with the EU.  EU has stopped much of the EV subsidies but they are not needed any more but still the move to ween off Russia natural gas and any Russia products even if refined in another country.  This things seem to be happening due to Green tech just getting massively better year on year whether that is wind turbines, solar panels, heat pumps or EVs.   

 

In case anyone is wondering about the DRAX comment @Rooted posted, here is the link Drax: UK power station still burning rare forest wood - BBC News, and it confirms what I claimed a while ago about the so-called Green Energy and Renewable Energy that some suppliers offer at a higher price. You really cannot trust anyone who claims that they can and will supply it, where there is a chance of extra profit to be made, ethics will often fly out the window I'm afraid. By way of example, look at their obscene profits they are and have making while our bills have risen way above other countries.

@lol-lol fertiliser requires lots of energy to produce.  Electricity and hence the Nuclear power stations in the Ukraine.    

 

I worked with Drax many years ago on their proposals for biomass co-firing - specifically in relation to the transport and delivery of the biomass and the facilities for it.  At that stage I seem to recall it was intended to be a mix of wood pellets and rapeseed co-firing...

1 hour ago, Rooted said:

@lol-lol fertiliser requires lots of energy to produce.  Electricity and hence the Nuclear power stations in the Ukraine.    

 

 

I did no know that, thanks.

 

8 hours ago, wyx087 said:

in short, climate change is the last thing to consider for military leaders. For them, most important aspect is combat capability.

 

No **** Sherlock!

42 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

No **** Sherlock!

Yes, that was a bad summary. Those 2 points still came from the video, the first one was just very obvious.

 

The point of the video is that due to historic reasons, military carbon emissions were never recorded/accounted for. That is changing very slowly, UK and a few other countries have recently published military carbon emissions data.

Electric vehicles will crush fossil cars on price as lithium and battery prices fall 

 ...the world’s largest EV battery maker recently announcing it’s on track to cut battery costs in half this year, new research suggests the decline in EV prices may by happening faster than thought.   Analysts think ICE (internal combustion engine) car makers are in for a rude shock, as EV prices come in below existing petrol and diesel models at the lower end of the market. ........Because key minerals needed for LFP battery production are cheap: Lithium, iron, aluminum, graphite and copper. None are rare, all are commodity items and easily sourced from ethical supply sources. Even the lithium is cheaper as it uses lithium carbonate, rather than lithium hydroxide.”

 

 

Still some way to go yet to really make decent electric cars affordable so people can get out of their middle class ICE and into the equivalent spec and size electric cars.

Sad news, Nissan Sunderland plant are stopping production of Leaf. When stocks run out it'll be end of Nissan Leaf for UK.

https://www.electrifying.com/blog/article/the-leaf-has-fallen-nissan-stops-ev-production-in-the-uk

 

But to be fair, we all knew this is coming. Chademo rapid charging is not increasing as quickly as CCS. The car platform is way overdue a refresh.

 

Question for me, do I buy the last new one, or do I buy second hand, hope battery was looked after...... I'm buying for V2H.
Or keep current 2014 car for 3+ more years, and hope there's better V2H implementation by then.

If you can afford to buy one of the last models, it makes good sense to buy it new surely? It will more then likely come with loads of extras free as is the norm with run out models, and the battery will have a warranty, whereas 2nd hand is a lottery as there is no foolproof way of judging how battery has been looked after. 

Wife isn't keen on changing her car, she doesn't like change. So may keep it, but I was hoping I can get an almost new Leaf a few years down the line.

 

I want to change because early Leaf cannot discharge below 30% when connected via V2H, so during wintery days + day time vehicle usage, the battery size JUST falls short of what we need to power the house.

 

Between 2020 and now, Leaf haven't had any updates apart from cosmetic change to the wheels. There wouldn't be anything to be gained buying new, apart from newer battery.

Armed with Leafspy, I am fairly confident I have the experience to check battery condition. For Leaf, where they don't have thermal management, as long as hasn't been regularly rapid charged back to back, battery should be fine.

33 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Sad news, Nissan Sunderland plant are stopping production of Leaf. When stocks run out it'll be end of Nissan Leaf for UK.

https://www.electrifying.com/blog/article/the-leaf-has-fallen-nissan-stops-ev-production-in-the-uk

 

But to be fair, we all knew this is coming. Chademo rapid charging is not increasing as quickly as CCS. The car platform is way overdue a refresh.

 

Question for me, do I buy the last new one, or do I buy second hand, hope battery was looked after...... I'm buying for V2H.
Or keep current 2014 car for 3+ more years, and hope there's better V2H implementation by then.

 

There is a Chademo to CCS-adapter, which some firms have devised, not sure how efficient or power handling or all te details but it is around.

LEAF downfall was more about Rapidgate due to having no active cooling in large part I suspect.

Despite that I really wanted one ie the 64 kWh battery size one which they could not supply and there was a question as to whether it would have a heat pump or not, 2021 models were suppose to get the heat pump as standard but this was the time of parts shortages.  I did not get heated seats with my top of the range Zoe so had to fit aftermarket ones.

 

The home batteries i to know the revenue I get from supplying the grid far outweighs the battery damage ie batteries only ahve 1 to 4 thousands charges in them so I want to making a few quid on every supply back to the grid. 

 

Will leafspy tell you how many charge cycles it's had as V2H will effectively double them and hasten the battery demise to the point that's not cost effective? 

Just now, Graham Butcher said:

Will leafspy tell you how many charge cycles it's had as V2H will effectively double them and hasten the battery demise to the point that's not cost effective? 

 

I think I would not use a high performance lithium ion car battery unless it was out of the car and only being used as a static battery. 

Lithium iron phosphate different matter as much more capable of thousands of charge and discharge cycles.

 

My company, which I ceased being a part of yesterday but battery division goes on, its Lithium metal polyamide batteries, which are solid state are good for thousands of cycles but should be kept cooking at 50C or so.

 

Lithium Iron Phosphate seem the answer at the moment ie do not mind being charge to 100% repeatedly, do not suffer as much deg per cycle of charge/recharge and aer cheaper.

 

got to be worthwhile though, 50p a kWh but back in to the grid at least I reckon ie double money plus !